Autopsy Rnd 7: Done by the Blues

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Ati Tude

Team Captain
Mar 20, 2018
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"Our best is good enough to beat anyone's"

Yeah, Carlton not getting ahead of themselves at all.
Well, when are they planning on playing their best? That seems to be a totally different story. Beating a bottom 6 side with a bunch of kids in it by 16 points doesn't bode all that well I for them me thinks. But hopefully they can rally a bit and make it - to 9th.
 

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BrunoV

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May 5, 2009
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"Our best is good enough to beat anyone's"

Yeah, Carlton not getting ahead of themselves at all.

Almost a sackable offence because of how desperate and/or deluded it sounds. It also tends to be followed quite naturally by the assumption about what another side's best is, which is usually inaccurate.

You can hear him thinking about the time they got on to a roll against top 4 team (possibly Richmond) and how it will be okay once they work out how to do it permanently.

For a start, has anyone worked out how to be that good the whole time?

Then, isn't what at least half of coaching is, coming up with a system to keep a side in the game for the inevitable 50% of the time the game is not running for you?
 

BrunoV

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May 5, 2009
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"Our best is good enough to beat anyone's"

Yeah, Carlton not getting ahead of themselves at all.

Almost a sackable offence because of how desperate and/or deluded it sounds. It also tends to be followed quite naturally by the assumption about what another side's best is, which is usually inaccurate.

You can hear him thinking about the time they got on to a roll against [insert top 4 team, possibly Richmond] and how it will be okay once they work out how to do it permanently.

For a start, has anyone worked out how to be that good the whole time?

Then, isn't what at least half of coaching is, coming up with a system to keep a side in the game for the inevitable 50% of the time the game is not running for you?

It's the genius in what Hardwick/Richmond recognised as the need to embrace the chaos. That's the recognition that things aren't always going to go to plan.
 

FlyingV

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Aug 16, 2012
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It's standard nonsensical Cornes.

Was anyone expecting Carlton to finish higher than 6th? All of the sides they have lost to so far indicate they are on track (if you accept that Pies side was dramatically different back in round 2).

He like so many others make too many comments without understanding the bigger picture.

They had Setterfield, Williamson, De Koning (I'd have as only slightly behind Bryan as a ruck prospect and he's a few years advanced) and O'Brien play reserves yesterday in addition to some other players who are more speculative and who I know nothing about. We had in a descending list of their contributions to list health: Brand, Eyre, Ambrose, Waterman, BZT, Cahill and Johnson and got belted.

They played 2 yesterday who probably aren't being though of as players for 2022 and on, Owies and Cottrell. Parks debuted (and look like the depth he is).

Martin, Williams, Silvagni and Fisher injured.

Kemp (pick 18 in 2019) and Philp (pick 20 in 2019) didn't play in either match.

Curnow and Marchbank are LTIs with questionable health. On paper they are not just best 22 but very good players.

We can add 4 players to that team to make it better: Draper, Caldwell, Shiel and Francis. They have a choice of 8-13 players (if you include SPS who didn't start) who they could add to improve the team they selected yesterday. Admittedly that includes a couple of untested kids but if our previously untested kids are anything to go by...

A lot more should go into a discussion about list health than an overreaction to a single game without any apparent understanding of the respective lists. There was no top up either, not in the sense they sacrificed the future (maybe even trading out 3 first round picks in a row). They spent a list spot and available cap space on Martin and Williams. It was a solitary first pick for Saad. Some of their kids I don't like, O'Brien and Dow for example, but the list is in a very good position. It's not perfect but they can just sit back, look at the available agents for the middle of the ground, draft for the middle and key defensive posts and it should not be hard to set up a sustained attack on the top 4.


Edit: the premiership race part of the discussion is just dumb. It helps to distort the argument to being about a select few players when the reality is that it is list depth that puts a side into the fight for the top 6 and top 4 and that you can only really "plan" for a premiership from there. How do you seriously plan for a premiership when you have even seen what you have hold up in the heat of finals? Premierships are goals, aspirations but they're not plans not from where Carlton and Essendon 2020 started from.

It's also not the list but the set-up and defence of the ground that is holding them back but we can't attack coaches until we can.
I think the fascination with Carlton is that when you look at their list, they should be so much better then they are based on the picks and names they have out there.
It just goes to show how hard it is to shake a culture of mediocrity, which is what we are try to do now.
 

BrunoV

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I think the fascination with Carlton is that when you look at their list, they should be so much better then they are based on the picks and names they have out there.
It just goes to show how hard it is to shake a culture of mediocrity, which is what we are try to do now.


Yeah, get someone in there who will emphasise ground defence and the culture of mediocrity will change pretty quick.

Teague is essentially Knights with a good list and he's doubling down on everything that holds them back. There's doubling down and then there's bringing Worsfold in as a consultant.

I don't think the way they play stops them from playing finals and possibly even winning one. However, they're off the pace in terms of wins and losses and they're now up against the competition. They'll inevitably find themselves in the same territory as St Kilda. Seduced by how everything looks when things are going well, and a solid to good list, but ignoring the reality that things don't seem to go well when they really want them to.
 

FlyingV

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Yeah, get someone in there who will emphasise ground defence and the culture of mediocrity will change pretty quick.

Teague is essentially Knights with a good list and he's doubling down on everything that holds them back. There's doubling down and then there's bringing Worsfold in as a consultant.

I don't think the way they play stops them from playing finals and possibly even winning one. However, they're off the pace in terms of wins and losses and they're now up against the competition. They'll inevitably find themselves in the same territory as St Kilda. Seduced by how everything looks when things are going well, and a solid to good list, but ignoring the reality that things don't seem to go well when they really want them to.
I was going to say they remind me a bit of the st Kilda team of the mid 2000s. Lots of high picks, great talent but couldn’t put it together, constantly underperformed. And then Ross Lyon beat some structure into them and it clicked.
 

Red Black and Blue

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He went to go man up the other player and then Saad went because Dev had moved.
He did the right thing and even told Stringer to be switched on.
Smith was goal side of Saad and Stringer wasn’t when he handed over. Smith should have pointed for Stringer to take the guy in the less dangerous boundary side position and kept the dangerous space occupied.
 

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owen87

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Apr 23, 2016
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I think the fascination with Carlton is that when you look at their list, they should be so much better then they are based on the picks and names they have out there.
It just goes to show how hard it is to shake a culture of mediocrity, which is what we are try to do now.
Their player development looks to be pretty poor. Where are the role players? Where are the young guys coming in adding value to the side?

Hawthorn, Geelong, Sydney, and now Richmond have all managed to produce role players throughout their premiership runs.

They're also hurt by high picks that haven't come on.

2014 draft was a sh*t show.
2015 got them Weitering & McKay who are genuine A-graders. Curnow who knows now. Cunningham should be a capable role player. Silvagni similar.
2016 has SPS who's been a disappointment, Fisher who seems OK, then Williamson who hasn't yet cracked 40 games.
2017 brought Dow & O'Brien who both look like busts, and Tom De Koning who does show promise and is still young by ruck standards.
2018 is Walsh who's been fantastic, and Stocker who isn't a small defender but is being played as a small defender.
2019 has a combined 2 games from Kemp & Philp & Ramsay so far.
2020 they traded out of the first round for Saad, Parks in the rookie draft has shown signs of life.

That's a lot of drafts to have produced very few best-22 players. They'd be wanting to hope that TDK, Stocker, Kemp & Philp all start playing a meaningful part of their side by the end of 2021. There's a lot of first round selections who are either not up to it or not playing.
 
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TheBrightSide

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Jan 17, 2016
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I think the fascination with Carlton is that when you look at their list, they should be so much better then they are based on the picks and names they have out there.
It just goes to show how hard it is to shake a culture of mediocrity, which is what we are try to do now.
It’s the result of tanking, setting out to lose is an absolute culture killer. Hard to recover from that.
Some would argue that the supplements saga ruined our culture, but at least we were trying to win. :)
 

bigdog43

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Sep 20, 2015
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TDK has literally played 9 career games and kicked 1 goal. The amount of times he's talked up as an automatic improvement to Carlton's best side now is mind boggling. He's got some talent, and as a young tall, would be one to look for in the future.

Curnow is becoming Daniher of 2017 - 2020. A white whale that hasn't played for two years now.

Williams & Martin are actual proven quality, but guys like Cunningham & Owies played well above expectations, so it's not as though there's as much lost in reality as on paper. Cunningham's stat line was basically as good as anything Williams has produced this year.

For a side that's topping up, Carlton seem very Essendon 2017-ish.
I really like TDK and think he'll be one of the best ruckmen in the competition at some point in his career. He competes, jumps over opponents and already gives us so much more than Pittonet. He's an improvement in the same way that Draper is an improvement on Phillips. More athletic, exciting and just genuinely moves better. I'm excited to watch TDK v Draper, think it will be a ripping match up in the future. Draper ahead at the moment but think TDK will be right there with him by the end of the year.
 

BrunoV

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I was going to say they remind me a bit of the st Kilda team of the mid 2000s. Lots of high picks, great talent but couldn’t put it together, constantly underperformed. And then Ross Lyon beat some structure into them and it clicked.

I was thinking St Kilda now. Not a real threat to anyone because they're a poor mans Port and don't shut the game down except through attack. Port has this habit of playing out of its skin against the best sides and it has the players to trouble anyone but when injuries hit and form slumps they seem to be in the same old territory of not being able to win enough games through the season to set up the sustained top 4 run. Obviously, there is a lot of water to go under the bridge this year but early signs are that they're going to struggle to make top 4. The new finals format means that it's not the problem it once was but it's still going to be that little bit harder to win from outside the top 4.
 

BrunoV

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I really like TDK and think he'll be one of the best ruckmen in the competition at some point in his career. He competes, jumps over opponents and already gives us so much more than Pittonet. He's an improvement in the same way that Draper is an improvement on Phillips. More athletic, exciting and just genuinely moves better. I'm excited to watch TDK v Draper, think it will be a ripping match up in the future. Draper ahead at the moment but think TDK will be right there with him by the end of the year.

It's will be a good 1-2 punch with Pittonet. Pittonet is good because he's a solid presence, he can soften up the opponents for TDK to jump over.

There is a lot about De Konning's game that translates to playing as a key forward which is why I think the combination would work well. He's a very good prospect. Hopefully his body holds up in the next 18 months as I think he'll really make a name for himself. Said it elsewhere that I'd have TDK, Draper and Bryan as similarly promising players with similar levels of ability. TDK is a bit more of a cross between Draper and Bryan - not quite the brute Draper is with not quite the same physical presence but he has more of Bryan's class and athleticism without being quite at at that level - to put it into some context for Essendon fans.
 
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Pweter

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It's will be a good 1-2 punch with Pittonet. Pittonet is good because he's a solid presence, he can soften up the opponents for TDK to jump over.

There is a lot about De Konning's game that translates to playing as a key forward which is why I think the combination would work well. He's a very good prospect. Hopefully his body holds up in the next 18 months as I think he'll really make a name for himself. Said it elsewhere that I'd have TDK, Draper and Bryan as similarly promising players with similar levels of ability. TDK is a bit more of a cross between Draper and Bryan - not quite the brute Draper is with not quite the same physical presence but he has more of Bryan's class and athleticism without being quite at at that level - to put it into some context for Essendon fans.
Flashbacks of Bellchambers and Ryder before Ryder decided he wanted to be the alpha dog in the ruck lineup.
 

FlyingV

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Cox, Perkins, Jones, Bryan is an awesome hand from two drafts.

Add in Reid who looked good as well and we have the start of somerhing.
The beauty of having so many kpp kids coming through is we can capitalise on any young kids that slip through the draft. Excited.
 

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