Roads or Minefields?

[PhatBoy]

Which is fine but let the spin dictate from the fourth or fifth day not the second session of the match!!!!

Agreed, but that's what separates the minefields from the decent subcontinental wickets. As a loose rule, I've always thought the Sri Lankan wickets (aside from some of the SSC highways where Jayasuriya, Sangakkara and Jayawardene hit some colossal scores, are the sort of wickets the Asian countries should look to produce

 

[Perth bloke]

Agreed, but that's what separates the minefields from the decent subcontinental wickets. As a loose rule, I've always thought the Sri Lankan wickets (aside from some of the SSC highways where Jayasuriya, Sangakkara and Jayawardene hit some colossal scores, are the sort of wickets the Asian countries should look to produce

Yeah thats a fair call. I think where alot of people, myself until recently, get it wrong with India is the players are revered and all that but in terms of making fundamental change for good from within, they are just as powerless as the common folk over there. I had the chat with a Indian bloke last month that basically that Srinivasam guy is running things over there with his family for profit and power and it's totally corrupted

 

[PhatBoy]

Yeah thats a fair call. I think where alot of people, myself until recently, get it wrong with India is the players are revered and all that but in terms of making fundamental change for good from within, they are just as powerless as the common folk over there. I had the chat with a Indian bloke last month that basically that Srinivasam guy is running things over there with his family for profit and power and it's totally corrupted

It is. And for the most part, the BCCI even in a world cricket context do nothing to help the game. Yes something like the IPL has opened huge doors for a lot of cricketers to make a heap more money than they otherwise would, and even as a fan of one of the teams that has been most effected, I can't begrudge someone like Carlos Brathwaite who was a fringe Test player earning peanuts, making a small fortune playing IPL.

But India has the money and power to put a heap back into the ICC and allow them to distribute more revenue among the poorer Test teams and help them compensate their players better. Never happens and never will.

On the field, you're right - the players don't have a lot of say in the overall nature of the conditions they play in and on, beyond the captain saying "I'd like a pitch that turns." We love to make fund of India's aversion to travel and their apparent love of pumping up their figures on placid home pitches with the bat and minefield home pitches with the ball. In reality I don't think any serious cricketer WANTS to operate that way. And someone like Pujara, who was a lion at home and a lamb away, has shown in his last trip to Australia and his last series' in SA and England where he hit a 150 and 129 respectively, a willingness to work hard to adapt to tough conditions even though his actual overall records there are below par. Rahane averages 44 away and 39 at home, and has hit at least 96 in every country he's played in. Kohli has had his struggles away from home but has proven he can do it anywhere. the players themselves are not to blame, as you quite correctly point out.

 

[Perth bloke]

It is. And for the most part, the BCCI even in a world cricket context do nothing to help the game. Yes something like the IPL has opened huge doors for a lot of cricketers to make a heap more money than they otherwise would, and even as a fan of one of the teams that has been most effected, I can't begrudge someone like Carlos Brathwaite who was a fringe Test player earning peanuts, making a small fortune playing IPL.

But India has the money and power to put a heap back into the ICC and allow them to distribute more revenue among the poorer Test teams and help them compensate their players better. Never happens and never will.

On the field, you're right - the players don't have a lot of say in the overall nature of the conditions they play in and on, beyond the captain saying "I'd like a pitch that turns." We love to make fund of India's aversion to travel and their apparent love of pumping up their figures on placid home pitches with the bat and minefield home pitches with the ball. In reality I don't think any serious cricketer WANTS to operate that way. And someone like Pujara, who was a lion at home and a lamb away, has shown in his last trip to Australia and his last series' in SA and England where he hit a 150 and 129 respectively, a willingness to work hard to adapt to tough conditions even though his actual overall records there are below par. Rahane averages 44 away and 39 at home, and has hit at least 96 in every country he's played in. Kohli has had his struggles away from home but has proven he can do it anywhere. the players themselves are not to blame, as you quite correctly point out.

Yep this is a pretty fair assessment. It still rankles when we expect so much from India and they fall over meekly during a contest though. Like a soft underbelly that threatens to harden up every overseas tour and then exposes itself when the going gets tough. But I was so amazed by our quicks last Saturday . That was one for the ages and you wonder just how far our blokes can go. Lyon will get over 500 test wickets that's just a fact, PC may struggle to get past 350 wickets imo after missing all that time but he should have a good five years to go touch wood. Hazelwood just seems to get better with age and looks likely to take a big haul by the time he retires and out of all those blokes it's actually Starc with the lowest strike rate! So who's to say he can't get 400 odd test poles? Good times

 

[Gethelred]

The pitches that India have provided for test cricket imo have been disgraceful. How do they get away with it?

I'm sorry, but I really do not agree. I'm going to rephrase your post to reflect my opinion:

The batsman that Australia have provided for test cricket in India imo have been disgraceful. How do they get away with it?

I spoke to someone on the periphery of the Australian coaching setup prior to the infamous Homeworkgate series, and he was talking about how the preparation for the Australians was about as normal. He went to the coaches and asked, "Anyone doing extra sweeping drills, want any footwork, spin specific batting coaching?"

Answer he got was it's up to individuals. If they want it, they get it, but most of them didn't want it.

The fact that the majority of the Aust first class setup are so average to awful playing spin is a travesty. Some of that is because - due to the synthetic decks of junior cricket - the modus operandi for Australian bats is to belt the spinner for 20 off their first over to knock them off their line, and to continue belting up on them until the captain takes them off. The spinner becomes a two edged sword in that circumstance; a risk, who should only bowl in short spells, unless they're excellent defensively.

You can't play that way on the subcontinent. You either need to meet the ball outside the crease - either on the sweep, with a big stride forward, or on the charge - or you need to play the shorter ball deeeep in the crease to mitigate/read the spin, and Indian spinners don't often drop it short. We've sent blokes whose default against spin is to sit on the back foot, and to wait until they make a mistake, only to get skittled LBW/bowled by balls that don't turn.

Instead of blaming India for pitch tampering - as though we didn't deliberately start every series we played against them in Brisbane, a ground we haven't lost at since the 80's, which takes the fullest advantage of our tall quick bowlers and barely if ever gets any swing - perhaps we could attempt actually taking the way cricket is played over there a little more seriously.

We got it right last series, with how we worked IIRC with Pakistani coaches in a camp prior to the series, which allowed O'Keefe and Lyon to run riot if they played us on a spinning deck. What we need is for our bats to get dramatically better against spin, in very specific ways; we need to get better with clever deflection on the off side of the wicket, and we need to get better at meeting the ball before it bounces without premeditating the charge.

 

[PhatBoy]

Yep this is a pretty fair assessment. It still rankles when we expect so much from India and they fall over meekly during a contest though. Like a soft underbelly that threatens to harden up every overseas tour and then exposes itself when the going gets tough. But I was so amazed by our quicks last Saturday . That was one for the ages and you wonder just how far our blokes can go. Lyon will get over 500 test wickets that's just a fact, PC may struggle to get past 350 wickets imo after missing all that time but he should have a good five years to go touch wood. Hazelwood just seems to get better with age and looks likely to take a big haul by the time he retires and out of all those blokes it's actually Starc with the lowest strike rate! So who's to say he can't get 400 odd test poles? Good times

mate all i wanted after cricket on Saturday was to put the feet up with a dozen cans and watch some good hard test cricket. I was filthy on them. But the bowling was exceptional and one thing test cricket seems to have 'added to its repertoire' in recent years is this ability for it all to just happen so quickly.

 

[PhatBoy]

I'm sorry, but I really do not agree. I'm going to rephrase your post to reflect my opinion:

I spoke to someone on the periphery of the Australian coaching setup prior to the infamous Homeworkgate series, and he was talking about how the preparation for the Australians was about as normal. He went to the coaches and asked, "Anyone doing extra sweeping drills, want any footwork, spin specific batting coaching?"

Answer he got was it's up to individuals. If they want it, they get it, but most of them didn't want it.

The fact that the majority of the Aust first class setup are so average to awful playing spin is a travesty. Some of that is because - due to the synthetic decks of junior cricket - the modus operandi for Australian bats is to belt the spinner for 20 off their first over to knock them off their line, and to continue belting up on them until the captain takes them off. The spinner becomes a two edged sword in that circumstance; a risk, who should only bowl in short spells, unless they're excellent defensively.

You can't play that way on the subcontinent. You either need to meet the ball outside the crease - either on the sweep, with a big stride forward, or on the charge - or you need to play the shorter ball deeeep in the crease to mitigate/read the spin, and Indian spinners don't often drop it short. We've sent blokes whose default against spin is to sit on the back seat, and to wait until they make a mistake, only to get skittled LBW/bowled by balls that don't turn.

Instead of blaming India for pitch tampering - as though we didn't deliberately start every series we played against them in Brisbane, a ground we haven't lost at since the 80's, which takes the fullest advantage of our tall quick bowlers and barely if ever gets any swing - perhaps we could attempt actually taking the way cricket is played over there a little more seriously.

We got it right last series, with how we worked IIRC with Pakistani coaches in a camp prior to the series, which allowed O'Keefe and Lyon to run riot if they played us on a spinning deck. What we need is for our bats to get dramatically better against spin, in very specific ways; we need to get better with clever deflection on the off side of the wicket, and we need to get better at meeting the ball before it bounces without premeditating the charge.

This is all pretty fair. Save for Clarke and Smith, it's hard to pinpoint a genuinely GOOD player of spin bowling in the Australian team since the likes of Martyn and Hayden retired. There's a few who have found a method periodically. Even Warner, as odd as it sounds, played arguably 2 of his best 4-5 innings ever last time he went to Bangladesh through a fairly deliberate sweeping tactic

 

[Perth bloke]

I'm sorry, but I really do not agree. I'm going to rephrase your post to reflect my opinion:

I spoke to someone on the periphery of the Australian coaching setup prior to the infamous Homeworkgate series, and he was talking about how the preparation for the Australians was about as normal. He went to the coaches and asked, "Anyone doing extra sweeping drills, want any footwork, spin specific batting coaching?"

Answer he got was it's up to individuals. If they want it, they get it, but most of them didn't want it.

The fact that the majority of the Aust first class setup are so average to awful playing spin is a travesty. Some of that is because - due to the synthetic decks of junior cricket - the modus operandi for Australian bats is to belt the spinner for 20 off their first over to knock them off their line, and to continue belting up on them until the captain takes them off. The spinner becomes a two edged sword in that circumstance; a risk, who should only bowl in short spells, unless they're excellent defensively.

You can't play that way on the subcontinent. You either need to meet the ball outside the crease - either on the sweep, with a big stride forward, or on the charge - or you need to play the shorter ball deeeep in the crease to mitigate/read the spin, and Indian spinners don't often drop it short. We've sent blokes whose default against spin is to sit on the back seat, and to wait until they make a mistake, only to get skittled LBW/bowled by balls that don't turn.

Instead of blaming India for pitch tampering - as though we didn't deliberately start every series we played against them in Brisbane, a ground we haven't lost at since the 80's, which takes the fullest advantage of our tall quick bowlers and barely if ever gets any swing - perhaps we could attempt actually taking the way cricket is played over there a little more seriously.

Pitch tampering is one thing (and we know that it happens over there because a groundsman got stung by a news crew not long ago for taking payment for spicing up the pitch) but starting a test series at the gabba is totally fair and within the rules. Just because we win there doesn't mean we shouldn't stop playing there? Are you insinuating we cheat there? I'm confused. Might as well tell the all blacks to stop playing at Eden park because they never lose there too.

Now if a short stocky blonde bloke wearing a cap and dark glasses makes a purchase of sandpaper from the closest Bunnings to the team hotel I will cop that we cheat but once a ball turns square from the first day and pretty much continues to do it all test I find it very odd. And unfair to boot

 

[Gethelred]

This is all pretty fair. Save for Clarke and Smith, it's hard to pinpoint a genuinely GOOD player of spin bowling in the Australian team since the likes of Martyn and Hayden retired. There's a few who have found a method periodically. Even Warner, as odd as it sounds, played arguably 2 of his best 4-5 innings ever last time he went to Bangladesh through a fairly deliberate sweeping tactic

Labs is pretty good, and I'm thoroughly bummed about Handscomb who has a terrific strategy against a decent spinner. He'd charge 3 balls in the over deliberately, and if he didn't get a run he'd shape to go again on the 4th only to sit back on the back foot and to manipulate the 4th into a gap. He was proactive, and just imperial in how dominant he was over the spinners he played against, albeit in Australia.

But it's an absolute travesty that the best player of spin in the entire current Australian lineup outside of Smith is Lyon.

 

[Perth bloke]

mate all i wanted after cricket on Saturday was to put the feet up with a dozen cans and watch some good hard test cricket. I was filthy on them. But the bowling was exceptional and one thing test cricket seems to have 'added to its repertoire' in recent years is this ability for it all to just happen so quickly.

Imagine the fast bowling cartel sitting back in the sheds after that? What a feeling it must be, just to let that magic sink in. The lanky giraffe broad got to experience it five years ago now we can too. Apparently the kiwi bowling group get a limo and cigars and champers after a test win at the basin reserve. I damn well hope we did something like that for our blokes

 

[Gethelred]

Pitch tampering is one thing (and we know that it happens over there because a groundsman got stung by a news crew not long ago for taking payment for spicing up the pitch) but starting a test series at the gabba is totally fair and within the rules. Just because we win there doesn't mean we shouldn't stop playing there? Are you insinuating we cheat there? I'm confused. Might as well tell the all blacks to stop playing at Eden park because they never lose there too.

Brisbane is a pitch I would term as the most Australian wicket in the country. It's got tennis ball bounce early with the new ball, and while it does get a little lower and more predicable it's a bouncy wicket. It doesn't swing much if at all in Brisbane, and it doesn't really take to much seam either.

I can see what you're saying, but look at it from the opposition perspective. You've got an australian sitting opposite them, nodding sagely whilst asserting the tradition of starting the series in Brisbane; a ground they haven't lost at for more than 30 years, that minimizes my side's strengths (spin, or traditional indian quicks have been good movers of the ball in the air. Think, Zaheer Khan) with the ball whilst exposing the bats to bounce completely alien to them. There is a reason India only won their first series in Australia a year ago, and it took us suspending our 2 best bats as well as them assembling their best ever attack for non Indian conditions to do it, as well as the agreement that they wouldn't begin the series in Brisbane. The shoe can also be placed on the other foot, too; why can't/don't Indian sides prepare better to play in Australia?

I've said this before; Australians are not as comfortable as Americans with being hypocritical, so we tend to search for reasons why we aren't in this instance. We couch our unsportsmanlike conduct in the 'tough, but fair'; we denigrate England and India for pitch tampering whilst lauding our record at Brisbane and reliving the highlights of Thommo killing someone at the WACA. How much of a facade it is, I'll leave up to you to decide, but in effect we tamper as much as some, and not as much as others.

Now if a short stocky blonde bloke wearing a cap and dark glasses makes a purchase of sandpaper from the closest Bunnings to the team hotel I will cop that we cheat but once a ball turns square from the first day and pretty much continues to do it all test I find it very odd. And unfair to boot

???

You watched any cricket in NZ? Ball swings nigh all game, it ****ing hoops. What about the last tour India did of South Africa? ****ing bouncy tracks, covered in grass to take seam and movement in the air. England have journalistic discussions about the next wicket during an ashes series, arguing what the groundskeeper should turn out to give the English side the best chance. And Australia turned out extra bouncy Brisbane and Perth wickets every summer for decades.

You're seeing it only from your side, from the home conditions. You're looking at it as an Australian supporter, and there's nothing wrong with that as long as you recognise that's what you're doing.

 

[PhatBoy]

Brisbane is a pitch I would term as the most Australian wicket in the country. It's got tennis ball bounce early with the new ball, and while it does get a little lower and more predicable it's a bouncy wicket. It doesn't swing much if at all in Brisbane, and it doesn't really take to much seam either.

I can see what you're saying, but look at it from the opposition perspective. You've got an australian sitting opposite them, nodding sagely whilst asserting the tradition of starting the series in Brisbane; a ground they haven't lost at for more than 30 years, that minimizes my side's strengths (spin, or traditional indian quicks have been good movers of the ball in the air. Think, Zaheer Khan) with the ball whilst exposing the bats to bounce completely alien to them. There is a reason India only won their first series in Australia a year ago, and it took us suspending our 2 best bats as well as them assembling their best ever attack for non Indian conditions to do it, as well as the agreement that they wouldn't begin the series in Brisbane. The shoe can also be placed on the other foot, too; why can't/don't Indian sides prepare better to play in Australia?

I've said this before; Australians are not as comfortable as Americans with being hypocritical, so we tend to search for reasons why we aren't in this instance. We couch our unsportsmanlike conduct in the 'tough, but fair'; we denigrate England and India for pitch tampering whilst lauding our record at Brisbane and reliving the highlights of Thommo killing someone at the WACA. How much of a facade it is, I'll leave up to you to decide, but in effect we tamper as much as some, and not as much as others.

???

You watched any cricket in NZ? Ball swings nigh all game, it ******* hoops. What about the last tour India did of South Africa? ******* bouncy tracks, covered in grass to take seam and movement in the air. England have journalistic discussions about the next wicket during an ashes series, arguing what the groundskeeper should turn out to give the English side the best chance. And Australia turned out extra bouncy Brisbane and Perth wickets every summer for decades.

You're seeing it only from your side, from the home conditions. You're looking at it as an Australian supporter, and there's nothing wrong with that as long as you recognise that's what you're doing.

Another thing we often overlook is the fact that for year after year we waved this banner around "our 6 Test pitches all offer something different so they're the most sporting in the world." Yes to US they offer something different. All Australian cricket followers watch those same pitches every summer so we learn of the different subtleties and nuances of each of them and thing that every visiting chance as an even chance of competing on them.

But if you are from Sri Lanka, and come out here once every 4-5 years, do you really think the Gabba is going to feel that much different to Sydney or somewhere? To a young batsman from over there there is no nuance. They're all fast and bouncy.

 

[Gethelred]

Another thing we often overlook is the fact that for year after year we waved this banner around "our 6 Test pitches all offer something different so they're the most sporting in the world." Yes to US they offer something different. All Australian cricket followers watch those same pitches every summer so we learn of the different subtleties and nuances of each of them and thing that every visiting chance as an even chance of competing on them.

But if you are from Sri Lanka, and come out here once every 4-5 years, do you really think the Gabba is going to feel that much different to Sydney or somewhere? To a young batsman from over there there is no nuance. They're all fast and bouncy.

I think a traditional day test Adelaide wicket would feel different to Brisbane, but aside from that I agree.

 

[Perth bloke]

Brisbane is a pitch I would term as the most Australian wicket in the country. It's got tennis ball bounce early with the new ball, and while it does get a little lower and more predicable it's a bouncy wicket. It doesn't swing much if at all in Brisbane, and it doesn't really take to much seam either.

I can see what you're saying, but look at it from the opposition perspective. You've got an australian sitting opposite them, nodding sagely whilst asserting the tradition of starting the series in Brisbane; a ground you haven't lost at for more than 30 years, that minimizes my side's strengths (spin, or traditional indian quicks have been good movers of the ball in the air. Think, Zaheer Khan) with the ball whilst exposing the bats to bounce completely alien to them. There is a reason India only won their first series in Australia a year ago, and it took us suspending our 2 best bats as well as them assembling their best ever attack for non Indian conditions to do it, as well as the agreement that they wouldn't begin the series in Brisbane. The shoe can also be placed on the other foot, too; why can't/don't Indian sides prepare better to play in Australia?

I've said this before; Australians are not as comfortable as Americans with being hypocritical, so we tend to search for reasons why we aren't in this instance. We couch our unsportsmanlike conduct in the 'tough, but fair'; we denigrate England and India for pitch tampering whilst lauding our record at Brisbane and reliving the highlights of Thommo killing someone at the WACA. How much of a facade it is, I'll leave up to you to decide, but in effect we tamper as much as some, and not as much as others.

???

You watched any cricket in NZ? Ball swings nigh all game, it ******* hoops. What about the last tour India did of South Africa? ******* bouncy tracks, covered in grass to take seam and movement in the air. England have journalistic discussions about the next wicket during an ashes series, arguing what the groundskeeper should turn out to give the English side the best chance. And Australia turned out extra bouncy Brisbane and Perth wickets every summer for decades.

You're seeing it only from your side, from the home conditions. You're looking at it as an Australian supporter, and there's nothing wrong with that as long as you recognise that's what you're doing.

Look I get what you're saying. I'm seeing it through the eyes of a cheeky young Westie. I get it. Perspective is what's required for sure.

But I reckon the answer lies somewhere in the middle. Not turning the discussion into an "us and them" situation. My argument was merely that playing at a venue where we win is not cheating. It's advantageous for us definitely, but it's not cheating.

And bringing up new Zealand as a comparison I find very odd as I don't rate their batsmen outside of Williamson and Latham and yet they always find a way to score big over there. Despite the green nature of the wickets the decks play fairly true after it browns off. Look at Burns scoring a big ton against them over there three years ago

So I'm not sure why you're bringing other countries into it when I was discussing India and Australia? I'm not trying to put India down btw just pointing out some things. Like here's another one, I've never seen any side as bad as India for throwing their hands at the ball outside off stump. It probably works in India but show some respect to the bowlers on pitches that have a degree of bounce in them lol.

Surely they can grow a spine and start to work out how to leave? Or playing the straight balls for an hour until the bowlers have tired a tad? Like south Africa do when they tour here

 

[PhatBoy]

Look I get what you're saying. I'm seeing it through the eyes of a cheeky young Westie. I get it. Perspective is what's required for sure.

But I reckon the answer lies somewhere in the middle. Not turning the discussion into an "us and them" situation. My argument was merely that playing at a venue where we win is not cheating. It's advantageous for us definitely, but it's not cheating.

And bringing up new Zealand as a comparison I find very odd as I don't rate their batsmen outside of Williamson and Latham and yet they always find a way to score big over there. Despite the green nature of the wickets the decks play fairly true after it browns off. Look at Burns scoring a big ton against them over there three years ago

So I'm not sure why you're bringing other countries into it when I was discussing India and Australia? I'm not trying to put India down btw just pointing out some things. Like here's another one, I've never seen any side as bad as India for throwing their hands at the ball outside off stump. It probably works in India but show some respect to the bowlers on pitches that have a degree of bounce in them lol.

Surely they can grow a spine and start to work out how to leave? Or playing the straight balls for an hour until the bowlers have tired a tad? Like south Africa do when they tour here

Taylor?

 

[Perth bloke]

Taylor?

I knew I forgot someone. For some stupid reason I thought he had retired??

 

[Gethelred]

Look I get what you're saying. I'm seeing it through the eyes of a cheeky young Westie. I get it. Perspective is what's required for sure.

But I reckon the answer lies somewhere in the middle. Not turning the discussion into an "us and them" situation. My argument was merely that playing at a venue where we win is not cheating. It's advantageous for us definitely, but it's not cheating.

And bringing up new Zealand as a comparison I find very odd as I don't rate their batsmen outside of Williamson and Latham and yet they always find a way to score big over there. Despite the green nature of the wickets the decks play fairly true after it browns off. Look at Burns scoring a big ton against them over there three years ago

So I'm not sure why you're bringing other countries into it when I was discussing India and Australia? I'm not trying to put India down btw just pointing out some things. Like here's another one, I've never seen any side as bad as India for throwing their hands at the ball outside off stump. It probably works in India but show some respect to the bowlers on pitches that have a degree of bounce in them lol.

Surely they can grow a spine and start to work out how to leave? Or playing the straight balls for an hour until the bowlers have tired a tad? Like south Africa do when they tour here

What I'm saying is that everyone, to various degrees, doctors their wickets to suit them. And my solution is not to make everyone 'behave' (force a certain uniformity of conditions, as though that's really possible when you've got cricket played across 4 continents and two hemispheres) but to for us to look inward and to seek to improve ourselves. Instead of blaming England/India for doctoring their pitches, get better at thinking and playing the way those pitches need you to play.

Hire Ian Bell and Sourav Ganguly or MS Dhoni to come here and to work with the AIS and a group of up and coming bats, Murali or Harbhajan Singh (okay, maybe not him!) or Rangara Herath to show our finger spinners how to think and how to bowl. Become more flexible in how we think, and instead of blaming 'those damn pitch doctoring cheats!' actively work our arses off prior to touring and try to beat them properly.

Hayden's success in India came because prior to touring there he spent every day for 4 months dragging the coaches down to the nets to work on his sweep shot. We beat them in 2004-05, because we had for the first time 3-4 bats within our top 6 that could and did make runs there; Hayden, Clarke and Martyn. England had their first series win in Australia in 2011-12 because they had two-three players who were tremendously productive on Australian wickets with the bat (Trott, Bell and Cook) as well as for the first time 4 fast bowlers (Tremlett, Finn, Broad, Anderson) who were actually trying to bowl the way Australians bowl, as well as Graham Swann to take out the tail.

We need to take from these examples, instead of doing what has failed over and over again.

 

[Perth bloke]

I mean, let's look at it this way for perspective. For the last two years Shaw has been dominating headlines because of a legendary innings he played in high school. He comes out here and I'm literally brimming with excitement to see the new Sachin and he gets on the park and he just looks like a park cricketer with a bad attitude (see his recent Instagram post) and no ability whatsoever in the field. And I'm sorry but if that's what India is putting out then the IPL has won the market over tests for young Indians. And that's sad

 

[PhatBoy]

What I'm saying is that everyone, to various degrees, doctors their wickets to suit them. And my solution is not to make everyone 'behave' (force a certain uniformity of conditions, as though that's really possible when you've got cricket played across 4 continents and two hemispheres) but to for us to look inward and to seek to improve ourselves. Instead of blaming England/India for doctoring their pitches, get better at thinking and playing the way those pitches need you to play.

Hire Ian Bell and Sourav Ganguly or MS Dhoni to come here and to work with the AIS and a group of up and coming bats, Murali or Harbhajan Singh (okay, maybe not him!) or Rangara Herath to show our finger spinners how to think and how to bowl. Become more flexible in how we think, and instead of blaming 'those damn pitch doctoring cheats!' actively work our arses off prior to touring and try to beat them properly.

Hayden's success in India came because prior to touring there he spent every day for 4 months dragging the coaches down to the nets to work on his sweep shot. We beat them in 2004-05, because we had for the first time 3-4 bats within our top 6 that could and did make runs there; Hayden, Clarke and Martyn. England had their first series win in Australia in 2011-12 because they had two-three players who were tremendously productive on Australian wickets with the bat (Trott, Bell and Cook) as well as for the first time 4 fast bowlers (Tremlett, Finn, Broad, Anderson) who were actually trying to bowl the way Australians bowl, as well as Graham Swann to take out the tail.

We need to take from these examples, instead of doing what has failed over and over again.

Five continents.

 

[Gethelred]

Five continents.

Just checking if you were still here.

 

[Perth bloke]

What I'm saying is that everyone, to various degrees, doctors their wickets to suit them. And my solution is not to make everyone 'behave' (force a certain uniformity of conditions, as though that's really possible when you've got cricket played across 4 continents and two hemispheres) but to for us to look inward and to seek to improve ourselves. Instead of blaming England/India for doctoring their pitches, get better at thinking and playing the way those pitches need you to play.

Hire Ian Bell and Sourav Ganguly or MS Dhoni to come here and to work with the AIS and a group of up and coming bats, Murali or Harbhajan Singh (okay, maybe not him!) or Rangara Herath to show our finger spinners how to think and how to bowl. Become more flexible in how we think, and instead of blaming 'those damn pitch doctoring cheats!' actively work our arses off prior to touring and try to beat them properly.

Hayden's success in India came because prior to touring there he spent every day for 4 months dragging the coaches down to the nets to work on his sweep shot. We beat them in 2004-05, because we had for the first time 3-4 bats within our top 6 that could and did make runs there; Hayden, Clarke and Martyn. England had their first series win in Australia in 2011-12 because they had two-three players who were tremendously productive on Australian wickets with the bat (Trott, Bell and Cook) as well as for the first time 4 fast bowlers (Tremlett, Finn, Broad, Anderson) who were actually trying to bowl the way Australians bowl, as well as Graham Swann to take out the tail.

We need to take from these examples, instead of doing what has failed over and over again.

Look that's probably a good point mate and I'll pay it . I think you phrased your argument much more effectively with what you just posted and I can't help but agree

 

[PhatBoy]

I mean, let's look at it this way for perspective. For the last two years Shaw has been dominating headlines because of a legendary innings he played in high school. He comes out here and I'm literally brimming with excitement to see the new Sachin and he looks like a park cricketer with a bad attitude (see his recent Instagram post) and no ability whatsoever in the field. And I'm sorry but if that's what India is putting out then the IPL has won the market over tests for young Indians. And that's sad

he got more headlines for his 134 off 150 on Test debut. He's not the new Sachin. His closest comparison would be Sehwag. And his dismissals particularly the first, at Adelaide, was peak Sehwag. High backlift, not a lot of foot movement, and jabbing down at a ball away from his legs when he should have had them close together.

Where it is, and against whom, if you are opening the batting in your debut Test at 18 and smacking a hundred at virtually a run a ball, you have something going for you. I would say a player of his ilk needs more than 5 tests (in which he has a higher average than any Australian batsmen in Adelaide bar Smith and Marnus) before you can write him off.

 

[Perth bloke]

he got more headlines for his 134 off 150 on Test debut. He's not the new Sachin. His closest comparison would be Sehwag. And his dismissals particularly the first, at Adelaide, was peak Sehwag. High backlift, not a lot of foot movement, and jabbing down at a ball away from his legs when he should have had them close together.

Where it is, and against whom, if you are opening the batting in your debut Test at 18 and smacking a hundred at virtually a run a ball, you have something going for you. I would say a player of his ilk needs more than 5 tests (in which he has a higher average than any Australian batsmen in Adelaide bar Smith and Marnus) before you can write him off.

I just feel proud that our young men and women coming through the grades field like they are motivated and take criticism on the chin for the most part. Hearing Shaw basically say no one should be giving him criticism because they don't play test cricket was a bit on the nose. Perhaps they get paid too much and it goes to their heads? Our youth don't seem to do that

 

[Gethelred]

he got more headlines for his 134 off 150 on Test debut. He's not the new Sachin. His closest comparison would be Sehwag. And his dismissals particularly the first, at Adelaide, was peak Sehwag. High backlift, not a lot of foot movement, and jabbing down at a ball away from his legs when he should have had them close together.

Where it is, and against whom, if you are opening the batting in your debut Test at 18 and smacking a hundred at virtually a run a ball, you have something going for you. I would say a player of his ilk needs more than 5 tests (in which he has a higher average than any Australian batsmen in Adelaide bar Smith and Marnus) before you can write him off.

Except the Indians are going to drop him after one test. Bit reactive for me.

 

[Gethelred]

I just feel proud that our young men and women coming through the grades field like they are motivated and take criticism on the chin for the most part. Hearing Shaw basically say no one should be giving him criticism because they don't play test cricket was a bit on the nose. Perhaps they get paid too much and it goes to their heads? Our youth don't seem to do that

IIRC, Shaw came through the private school system in India. Castes and all that.

On one hand, bit rough to judge a young bloke based on cultural settings not his own (and in a language not his own, no less). On the other, the caste system and those like it in England, America and India sucks balls, and produces entitled quasi-noble brats en masse. Looks like he might be one.

Ah well. Cricket's got a way of finding that type out a bit. Won't have the stones for the top form game if his attitude's off.