USA Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and his role in the Trump government

[CD Xbow]

It is based on a new study.
Now you can agree or disagree with it. Thats your right. But lets stop with the hysteria and the lies please.

It's a meta study, no new data. The researchers do not claim causation. They emphasized that the findings support a possible link, not proof that paracetamol causes autism. There are so many confounding factors it's very hard to pick out one out. There are literally hundreds of other things, many with much stronger associations, here's a few I can think of, I'm sure there are more.

old fathers - risk x2.2
male sex - risk 3x
siblings - 20% risk if earlier children affected
gene mutation - Neurexin 1, SCN1A, and SLC6A1
syndromes like fragile X - very high association
prem birth and low birth wait
infections in pregnancy
chemical exposure - pollution, pesticides and endocrine disruptors
brain injury/abnormality/infections

I don't know why you a triumphing this, it's like when the orange moron suggested bleach for Covid, it's not science, it's political theatre or propaganda.

 

[Gethelred]

Some studies have shown there may be an increased risk. Other studies have shown there is no increased risk.

This is a claim to fact, MPMonkeys, that needs to be demonstrated to be allowed to stand.

You have 48 hours to find these studies, to withdraw your claim, or you will be infracted for misinforming the forum.

 

[MPMonkeys]

It's a meta study, no new data. The researchers do not claim causation. They emphasized that the findings support a possible link, not proof that paracetamol causes autism. There are so many confounding factors it's very hard to pick out one out. There are literally hundreds of other things, many with much stronger associations, here's a few I can think of, I'm sure there are more.

old fathers - risk x2.2
male sex - risk 3x
siblings - 20% risk if earlier children affected
gene mutation - Neurexin 1, SCN1A, and SLC6A1
syndromes like fragile X - very high association
prem birth and low birth wait
infections in pregnancy
chemical exposure - pollution, pesticides and endocrine disruptors
brain injury/abnormality/infections

I don't know why you a triumphing this, it's like when the orange moron suggested bleach for Covid, it's not science, it's political theatre or propaganda.

Correct. A possible link.
Nobody has said there is a definitive link.

My personal view is there is a link but its the other way around - ie people who suffer pain during pregnancy are more likely to have issues. And they are more likely to take pain killers such as paracetemol to combat the pain. So I sort of agree with you but I'm not arrogant enough to rule out all possibilities.

 

[CD Xbow]

Correct. A possible link.
Nobody has said there is a definitive link.

My personal view is there is a link but its the other way around - ie people who suffer pain during pregnancy are more likely to have issues. And they are more likely to take pain killers such as paracetemol to combat the pain. So I sort of agree with you but I'm not arrogant enough to rule out all possibilities.

That's all it is and it's not strong. Not strong enough for Trump to announce that the FDA would notify doctors about a “very increased risk of autism” associated with Tylenol use during pregnancy. This is rubbish. This is what happens when you mix politics with science, corruption.

 

[MPMonkeys]

That's all it is and it's not strong. Not strong enough for Trump to announce that the FDA would notify doctors about a “very increased risk of autism” associated with Tylenol use during pregnancy. This is rubbish. This is what happens when you mix politics with science, corruption.

I don't get the corruption angle. Surely the pharmaceutical companies would be none too pleased with this.
Doctors have brains, they are not robots. They can take the recommendation or they can ignore it.

 

[campbell]

Clever .

 

[campbell]

Funny how Dr Oz, is a big shareholder in iherb.

 

[Gethelred]

Being an Essendon player may be linked to being drug cheats. There's no evidence of it now, but there has been in the past so it "May" be because of being an Essendon player, it could be something else. So maybe there should just be a warning on all Essendon draftees.

This discussion is definitely worth having.

You see how stupid that sounds now, don't you?

I dunno, suddenly it's making a great deal of sense.

 

[CD Xbow]

I don't get the corruption angle. Surely the pharmaceutical companies would be none too pleased with this.
Doctors have brains, they are not robots. They can take the recommendation or they can ignore it.

You are underestimating the ill effects of Trumps words. People died from taking bleach on his idiotic recommendation. He publicly promoted both hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) and ivermectin as potential treatments for COVID-19, both ineffective, with folks who took HCQ dying more than those that didn't. it's dangerous when influential politicians and sky news talking heads start making health recommendations not based on science or based on profound misunderstandings.

 

[Dazzler9]

Better not take paracetamol fellas, just in case your d*ck falls off. There MAY be a link.

 

[Crankyhawk]

I don't get the corruption angle. Surely the pharmaceutical companies would be none too pleased with this.
Doctors have brains, they are not robots. They can take the recommendation or they can ignore it.

The corruption is that instead of paracetamol women might choose other analgesics like oxycodone (which gets a bigger mark up)

 

[Gethelred]

Alright.

I've had a quick read of the article itself and at the bottom it links to the full study, found here:

Evaluation of the evidence on acetaminophen use and neurodevelopmental disorders using the Navigation Guide methodology - Environmental Health

Background Acetaminophen is the most commonly used over-the-counter pain and fever medication taken during pregnancy, with > 50% of pregnant women using acetaminophen worldwide. Numerous well-designed studies have indicated that pregnant mothers exposed to acetaminophen have children diagnosed...

ehjournal.biomedcentral.com

It does not conclude that Acetaminophen (dunno why they can't standardise the name) causes autism, merely that studies which follow a certain methodology conclude that there's a chance it does. From the initial link:

The Navigation Guide Systematic Review methodology is a gold-standard framework for synthesizing and evaluating environmental health data. This approach allows researchers to assess and rate each study’s risk of bias, such as selective reporting of the outcomes or incomplete data, as well as the strength of the evidence and the quality of the studies individually and collectively.

“Our findings show that higher-quality studies are more likely to show a link between prenatal acetaminophen exposure and increased risks of autism and ADHD,” said Diddier Prada, MD, PhD, Assistant Professor of Population Health Science and Policy, and Environmental Medicine and Climate Science, at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai. “Given the widespread use of this medication, even a small increase in risk could have major public health implications.”

And here, it emphasizes that it does not find a link between acetaminophen and austism:

While the study does not show that acetaminophen directly causes neurodevelopmental disorders, the research team’s findings strengthen the evidence for a connection and raise concerns about current clinical practices.

You're welcome to have a read of it a bit further if you haven't already, I'm a bit ill at ease relying on a literature review which makes a tier list of reliability and uses that to conclude a connection between autism and paracetemol. It indicates there is reason to investigate further, not that there's actually something there.

The other side of it - if you follow the link provided in here to the actual study, then look at the peer review notes - the reviewer provides the following suggestions to the first draft:

• The manuscript repeatedly refers to the “causal link” despite acknowledging the observational
design. Even though biological plausibility and consistency strengthen the argument, this claim
should be more cautious.
• The discussion discounts findings from null sibling studies due to methodological weaknesses
but fully embraces positive findings. This may suggest selective interpretation.
• The discussion does not address the possibility that studies showing no association may be
underreported or unpublished.
• While intriguing, the “two-hit” model and its interaction with acetaminophen use are
speculative and not directly tested. This should be clearly framed as a hypothesis.

Now I'm not a doctor or any form of researcher, and this piece has gone through several versions since, but this suggests that the study is at the very least too conclusive concerning their findings.

Outside of this, MPMonkeys has gone less far than Trump has in this thread. The claim stands corrected.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Alright.

I've had a quick read of the article itself and at the bottom it links to the full study, found here:

Evaluation of the evidence on acetaminophen use and neurodevelopmental disorders using the Navigation Guide methodology - Environmental Health

Background Acetaminophen is the most commonly used over-the-counter pain and fever medication taken during pregnancy, with > 50% of pregnant women using acetaminophen worldwide. Numerous well-designed studies have indicated that pregnant mothers exposed to acetaminophen have children diagnosed...

ehjournal.biomedcentral.com

It does not conclude that Acetaminophen (dunno why they can't standardise the name) causes autism, merely that studies which follow a certain methodology conclude that there's a chance it does. From the initial link:

And here, it emphasizes that it does not find a link between acetaminophen and austism:


You're welcome to have a read of it a bit further if you haven't already, I'm a bit ill at ease relying on a literature review which makes a tier list of reliability and uses that to conclude a connection between autism and paracetemol. It indicates there is reason to investigate further, not that there's actually something there.

The other side of it - if you follow the link provided in here to the actual study, then look at the peer review notes, the reviewer provides the following suggestions to the first draft:

Now I'm not a doctor or any form of researcher, and this piece has gone through several versions since, but this suggests that the study is at the very least too conclusive concerning their findings.

Outside of this, MPMonkeys has gone less far than Trump has in this thread. The claim stands corrected.

The methodology (Navigation guide systematic review) is not one I have seen used for anything regarding medical causation
The initial article introducing this methodology https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4181919/ states that they made a decision to classify observational studies as moderate evidence rather than traditional "low" quality of evidence (as they are not controlled or randomised and traditionally are hypothesis generating alone)

 

[DaTBird187]

Well it’s damn near certain now that the worm didn’t leave anything useful.

 

[Spearman]

You are underestimating the ill effects of Trumps words. People died from taking bleach on his idiotic recommendation. He publicly promoted both hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) and ivermectin as potential treatments for COVID-19, both ineffective, with folks who took HCQ dying more than those that didn't. it's dangerous when influential politicians and sky news talking heads start making health recommendations not based on science or based on profound misunderstandings.

You'd think that wouldn't need to be explained, but...

 

[dumb]

they know that the data is far too esoteric to be disputed by their voters

they could have delivered their 'findings' a bit less bluntly. from a medical standpoint, it's perfectly reasonable to attempt to minimise the amount of over-the-counter stuff someone takes during pregnancy.

edit: assuming you're getting enough of what baby wants, ie folate

 

[Spearman]

Alright.

I've had a quick read of the article itself and at the bottom it links to the full study, found here:

Evaluation of the evidence on acetaminophen use and neurodevelopmental disorders using the Navigation Guide methodology - Environmental Health

Background Acetaminophen is the most commonly used over-the-counter pain and fever medication taken during pregnancy, with > 50% of pregnant women using acetaminophen worldwide. Numerous well-designed studies have indicated that pregnant mothers exposed to acetaminophen have children diagnosed...

ehjournal.biomedcentral.com

It does not conclude that Acetaminophen (dunno why they can't standardise the name) causes autism, merely that studies which follow a certain methodology conclude that there's a chance it does. From the initial link:

And here, it emphasizes that it does not find a link between acetaminophen and austism:


You're welcome to have a read of it a bit further if you haven't already, I'm a bit ill at ease relying on a literature review which makes a tier list of reliability and uses that to conclude a connection between autism and paracetemol. It indicates there is reason to investigate further, not that there's actually something there.

The other side of it - if you follow the link provided in here to the actual study, then look at the peer review notes, the reviewer provides the following suggestions to the first draft:

Now I'm not a doctor or any form of researcher, and this piece has gone through several versions since, but this suggests that the study is at the very least too conclusive concerning their findings.

Outside of this, MPMonkeys has gone less far than Trump has in this thread. The claim stands corrected.

Good work, sir.

I think the problem wasn't so much disbelief that the study existed, but that Numbnuts decided to put it out there from his high pulpit as IMPORTANT and conclusive etc. and Wormy will probably run with it.

 

[Spearman]

You are underestimating the ill effects of Trumps words. People died from taking bleach on his idiotic recommendation. He publicly promoted both hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) and ivermectin as potential treatments for COVID-19, both ineffective, with folks who took HCQ dying more than those that didn't. it's dangerous when influential politicians and sky news talking heads start making health recommendations not based on science or based on profound misunderstandings.

As we look back in those kinder, gentler days of Trump Mark I.

 

[CD Xbow]

Good work, sir.

I think the problem wasn't so much disbelief that the study existed, but that Numbnuts decided to put it out there from his high pulpit as IMPORTANT and conclusive etc. and Wormy will probably run with it.

I have a theory. It was designed at first to nail vaccines. Something happened, no idea what, but they didn't carry through with that and needed a scapegoat. Hey presto! Find a meta study with vague correlation and trumpet it around as you have found the cause of autism in 6 months. Give 'em the old razzle, dazzle.

 

[E Shed]

It’s like if your friend who lost the plot was mysteriously elevated to the senior health position in the country. (everyone has at least one who became a born again or started posting tinfoil stuff during Covid & never really came back).

One of the most intelligent, sceptical of religions people I know lost her husband and has joined a born again church and she’s been posting non stop about Kirk being a saint. The old version of her would have followed the money behind turning point and laughed at the gullibility of people who follow Kirk.

She is still relatively sane compared to her “friends” who comment on her posts. The sort of rambling, illogical, paranoid delusional stuff that comes with schizophrenia.
I’m glad she’s found comfort in her grief but really the kind of people who fall for cooker stuff and think Kennedy is awesome are mostly mentally ill in some way.

This is the GOP “base” now. Crazy people.

 

[Northalives]

Tell everybody and everyone you know to completely disregard what the morons Trump and Robert F. Kennedy Jr have said. If people are concerned about what these two buffoons have said, tell them to go and speak with their doctor before they do anything.

During Covid, some people whose heritage is from that Balkan States in Australia, were adamant that taking 10 paracetamol per day made you immune to Covid. Take that amount of paracetamol for any length of time, and you will suffer terrible damage to your liver.

You will also suffer terrible damage to your liver if you take excessive, that is way above the recommended dosage, amounts of Tetracyclines and other antibiotics such as Erythromycin and Amoxicillin-clavulanate, some anti seizure medications, Anabolic steroids, Statins (for lowering cholesterol and to reduce the risk of heart attack and stroke), Isoniazid which is used to treat or prevent reactivation of tuberculosis and many other critically important drugs.

The moral of the story is that if you take excessive amounts of some drugs, surprise surprise, you will more likely than not induce liver injury.

If f***wit one and f***wit two want to issue health warnings, then they should warn people about excessive use of Vitamin B3 supplements as pushed by "influencers" and the beauty industry for "radiant skin". This stuff can cause serious damage to your heart, give you gout, make you pass out, severe diarrhoea and vomiting amongst other debilitating consequences. You CANNOT "overdose" on eating vitamin B3 rich foods but you certainly can by consuming store bought Vitamin B3 supplements and "health products" containing very large amounts of vitamin B3.

Trump and Kennedy Jr are very dangerous extremists and pose a huge threat to public health not just in the US but world wide.

There are significant rises in child influenza in the US and other complicated influenzas, measles is ripping through communities due to declining vaccination rates in 77% of counties with some precincts noting more than a 20% reduction in vaccination rates. Vaccine exemptions for school children are rising. As many as 53% of counties have seen exemption rates more than double from 2019 to now. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has weakened vaccination requirements for schoolchildren and made it easier for parents to opt out of them.

We need to be vigilant and stop ourselves from going down the American anti-vax, "big pharmaceutical conspiracy" bullshit by condemning the MAGA buffoons in Australia and the "sovereign citizen idiots". Spread the word about the imminent danger to Australia by tolerating these types and giving them airspace.

 

[Northalives]

I have a theory. It was designed at first to nail vaccines. Something happened, no idea what, but they didn't carry through with that and needed a scapegoat. Hey presto! Find a meta study with vague correlation and trumpet it around as you have found the cause of autism in 6 months. Give 'em the old razzle, dazzle.

I don't know if it's been posted but this is a definitive study of 2, 480, 797 children born in 1995 to 2019 in Sweden, with follow-up through to the 31st of December, 2021 on Acetaminophen (paracetamol/tylenol) Use During Pregnancy and Children’s Risk of Autism, ADHD, and Intellectual Disability.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2817406

 

[Crankyhawk]

I don't know if it's been posted but this is a definitive study of 2, 480, 797 children born in 1995 to 2019 in Sweden, with follow-up through to the 31st of December, 2021 on Acetaminophen (paracetamol/tylenol) Use During Pregnancy and Children’s Risk of Autism, ADHD, and Intellectual Disability.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2817406

the new metanalysis does have that paper (among others) but just takes the crude odds rather than considering the sibling matched subgroup (which removes a lot of familial confounders)

 

[Saint]

the new metanalysis does have that paper (among others) but just takes the crude odds rather than considering the sibling matched subgroup (which removes a lot of familial confounders)

Using Meta-analysis in this way is going to significantly reduce the prestige or reliability given to such studies.

But I'm sure Mt Sinai will get a lot of $$ to produce some more meta-analysis.

People outside data and statistics often under-estimate how easy it is to manipulate a study or a model by altering the basic assumptions. And it can be done in a spreadsheet until you get the response you want. Sounds like what this meta-study did. Even if it put in the comprehensive Swedish Study disproving a correlation in their "high" category, they could drown it out by throwing in 10 more garbage "medium" studies which did show a correlation. Simples.

In my field, we often do it to test how much we'd have to change underlying behaviour to get the outcome we want. Almost always it becomes an un-realistic figure.

 

[CD Xbow]

...I’m glad she’s found comfort in her grief but really the kind of people who fall for cooker stuff and think Kennedy is awesome are mostly mentally ill in some way.

This is the GOP “base” now. Crazy people.

It's a big base to draw on in the USA.