Roger Federer is not the GOAT

Xtreme

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When the GOAT is mentioned it doesn't take into account gender, age, disability or any other category. It is simply an opinion on the best player who ever lived, well the case is closed.
Yes the case is closed. The queen of tennis Serena Williams is the true GOAT of all tennis regardless of gender :)
 

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Considering Serena and Federer don’t compete against each other why is this a debate?
Yeah I agree, seperate discussions.

Djokovic will win more slams than Federer by the end of his career I think, which will make the whole discussion even more interesting amongst the men.
 

Redline

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When the GOAT is mentioned it doesn't take into account gender, age, disability or any other category. It is simply an opinion
on the best player who ever lived and since any of the top 100 men players would easily beat Serena, well the case is closed.
Growing up I never heard anyone compare Rod Laver and Margaret Court. I don't see the need for comparision amongst the mens and womans.
 

gopies1981

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Yes the case is closed. The queen of tennis Serena Williams is the true GOAT of all tennis regardless of gender :)
Sorry but Margaret Court is still the greatest female tennis player of all time. She has 24 gs singles titles to Serena 23. Margaret also has a 92% win-loss career record compared to Serena 85% win-loss record. Margaret also won a record 192 titles compared to Serena 72. Margaret also won the Calendar grand slam in 1970 (in the open era). Serena has no and will not win the Calendar grand slam. Serena only has this year to break her record but with Naomi Osaka getting better and better whilst only being 21 Serena will have to settle being 2nd best off all time. The top 10 greatest grand slam winners are belong

1. Margaret Court 24 gs
2. Serena Williams 23 gs
3. Steffi Graf 22 gs
4. Helen Wills-Moody 19 gs
5. Martina Navratilova 18 gs (places her higher the Chis Evert due to having a 43-37 win loss record against Chris)
6. Chris Evert 18 gs
7. Billie Jean King 12 gs
8. Maureen Connolly 9 gs (higher then Monica due to winning Calendar gs in 1954)
9. Monica Seles 9 gs
10. Suzanne Lenglen 8 gs

In the open era since 1968 when when the tour became professional the top 10 are;

1. Serena Williams 23 gs
2. *Steffi Graf 22 gs (would steffi win 22 gs if Monica did not get stabbed in 1993)
3. Martina Navratilova 18 gs (most careers singles titles 167)
4. Chris Evert 18 gs (second most singles titles 154)
5. Margaret Court 11 gs
6.* Monica Seles 9 gs (Monica would of won a lot more then her 9 gs if she was not stabbed in the back in 1993 when she had won 7 out of the last 8 gs singles titles)
7. Billie Jean King 8 gs
8. Venus Williams 7 gs
9. Evonne Goolagong 7 gs
10. Justine Hennin 7 gs

Honarable mentions

Martina Hingis 5 gs
Maria Sharapova 5 gs
Kim Clijsters 4 gs
Hana Mandlíková 4 gs
Arantxa Sánchez Vicario 4 gs
Lindsay Davenport 3 gs
Jennifer Capriati 3 gs
Angelique Kerber 3 gs
 

JayJay_S

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Margaret Court played in a time where the competition was much less than what it is today. Surely that is not comparable at all. Serena still remains the GOAT.
 

gopies1981

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Margaret Court played in a time where the competition was much less than what it is today. Surely that is not comparable at all. Serena still remains the GOAT.
Was it??? She still had to contend with Billie Jean King, Marina Bruneo and Evonne Goolagong. Margaret still holds the record and with Naomi the new queen of women’s tennis Serena has no chance of beating Margaret Courts Record
 

JayJay_S

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Was it??? She still had to contend with Billie Jean King, Marina Bruneo and Evonne Goolagong. Margaret still holds the record and with Naomi the new queen of women’s tennis Serena has no chance of beating Margaret Courts Record
Her first Australian Open title win was in 1960 and it was a 5 round competition apparently. 2 rounds of less competition that would mean. 1961 and beyond seem to be 6 rounds compared to todays 7 round tournament. Also would suggest that there is less competition.

Hard to compare the two based on different types of tournaments.
 

Kappa

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Sorry but Margaret Court is still the greatest female tennis player of all time. She has 24 gs singles titles to Serena 23. Margaret also has a 92% win-loss career record compared to Serena 85% win-loss record. Margaret also won a record 192 titles compared to Serena 72. Margaret also won the Calendar grand slam in 1970 (in the open era). Serena has no and will not win the Calendar grand slam. Serena only has this year to break her record but with Naomi Osaka getting better and better whilst only being 21 Serena will have to settle being 2nd best off all time. The top 10 greatest grand slam winners are belong

1. Margaret Court 24 gs
2. Serena Williams 23 gs
3. Steffi Graf 22 gs
4. Helen Wills-Moody 19 gs
5. Martina Navratilova 18 gs (places her higher the Chis Evert due to having a 43-37 win loss record against Chris)
6. Chris Evert 18 gs
7. Billie Jean King 12 gs
8. Maureen Connolly 9 gs (higher then Monica due to winning Calendar gs in 1954)
9. Monica Seles 9 gs
10. Suzanne Lenglen 8 gs

In the open era since 1968 when when the tour became professional the top 10 are;

1. Serena Williams 23 gs
2. *Steffi Graf 22 gs (would steffi win 22 gs if Monica did not get stabbed in 1993)
3. Martina Navratilova 18 gs (most careers singles titles 167)
4. Chris Evert 18 gs (second most singles titles 154)
5. Margaret Court 11 gs
6.* Monica Seles 9 gs (Monica would of won a lot more then her 9 gs if she was not stabbed in the back in 1993 when she had won 7 out of the last 8 gs singles titles)
7. Billie Jean King 8 gs
8. Venus Williams 7 gs
9. Evonne Goolagong 7 gs
10. Justine Hennin 7 gs

Honarable mentions

Martina Hingis 5 gs
Maria Sharapova 5 gs
Kim Clijsters 4 gs
Hana Mandlíková 4 gs
Arantxa Sánchez Vicario 4 gs
Lindsay Davenport 3 gs
Jennifer Capriati 3 gs
Angelique Kerber 3 gs
You seriously can't compare beating amateurs in the 70s to Serena beating the elite professional athletes of today.. Serena is ahead by a mile. Women's sport was clearly not taken seriously back then compared to now, her opponents were soo much weaker.
 

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gopies1981

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You seriously can't compare beating amateurs in the 70s to Serena beating the elite professional athletes of today.. Serena is ahead by a mile. Women's sport was clearly not taken seriously back then compared to now, her opponents were soo much weaker.
Actually the open era started in 1968!! At the end of the day Margaret Court still holds the record and Serena will not break it thank god...

Anyway Serena and Steffi was only lucky that Monica Seles got stabbed because Monica was well on her way to become the greatest tennis player of all time. 8 gs titles by 19 wow!!! It had to take a Steffi Graf fan to ruin Monica’s career tho she did come back she only won I gs 1996 aus open she was not the same player. She was overweight and did not have the same fearless game plan when she was no.1 from 1991 to April 1993. No doubt Monica would of been dominating the game till about 2000 and by then could of easily broken the 24 grand slam record. Even players like Martina, Chris and Lindsay all said that Monica was well on her way to become the greatest female tennis player. Steffi who herself was 24 and at her peak had no answer’s for Monica's power and Monica was still a teenager and had not reached her peaked.

Instead when Monica returned due to her being overweight and obviously suffering from depression and anxiety with what happened to her was always ranked between 3-7 in the world because she was overweight and struggle against Hingis who would make her run and power hitters Lindsay, Venus, Serena and Mary pierce because unlike when she was at her peak pre stabbing she was unable to get in the right position to hit Winners due to how slow she was around the court.
 

Roobs321

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I agree Monica Seles was very unlucky in career terms, not to slight her exemplary late 90s/early 00s career at all but she was on her way to lofty greatness. That was a great era for female champions, with Graf and Seles almost immediately dominating in the wake of the Evert-Navrat era, whilst the likes of Sabatini and ASV were excellent as well. Sabatini gets a bit forgotten because of her single slam and relatively early retirement, but she made at least one GS SF for 11 consecutive years, 4 YEC finals, was top 10 for almost her entire career.

I've always preferred Djokovic to Fedal personally. If you think back, he has been a #1 (or extremely close, #1 worthy) in these years: 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2018. Finished top 3 in the rankings for 11 of the past 12 seasons. Near unbeatable at his peak. Djoker is one of those players who will be appreciated more long after his career is over. The way he stormed through the AO finals matches this year was scary (although his three opponents clearly weren't playing anywhere near their best). Medvedev seemingly activated a higher level. Even last year at Wimbledon and USO, he was working his way back into dominant form, a bit like 2014.
 
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Roobs321

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Djokovic has a positive H2H against both of those guys, Federer has the most slams, Nadal’s clay dominance is ‘unbeleeble’. We’re pretty privileged to have seen all three with peaks so close together.
Well Djokovic has generally been a supreme hardcourt player (which is much of the tour) for the entire decade now, so he has caught up and overtaken them in h2h. His last slam final win over Nadal was 2012 AO (Nadal had a few final wins since, '12 & '14 FO and USO '13), so felt he was due in that particular part of the h2h. Nice to have him finally make the AO his own slam as well beyond a shadow of doubt.
 

pepsi

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Nice to have him finally make the AO his own slam as well beyond a shadow of doubt.
King of Melbourne - Djokovic (7 titles)
King of Paris - Nadal (11 titles)
King of Wimbledon - Federer (8 titles)

Federer (37) - Nadal (32) - Djokovic (31) comparisons
Grand Slam titles: 20 - 17 - 15
Grand Slam finals: 30 - 25 - 24
Grand Slam semifinals: 43 - 30 - 34
Win % against Top 10 opponents: 75% - 76.8% - 76.51%
Titles: 99 - 80 - 73

Head to Head: Federer 15 - Nadal 23, Nadal 25 - Djokovic 28, Federer 22 - Djokovic 25

Federer only: All 4 Grand Slam finals in 1 season reached three times (2006–2007, 2009), 3 men's Grand Slam titles per-year 3 times (2004, 2006–2007)
2 consecutive years winning 3 titles (2006–2007), 4 consecutive years winning 2+ titles (2004–2007), 23 consecutive men's Grand Slam semifinals, 5+ finals at all four Grand Slams

Nadal only: Most titles won at a single Grand Slam (11 RG), won three grand slams on 3 different surfaces in the same calendar year, 10 consecutive years of winning 1+ grand slam title (2005-2014), 16 consecutive victories in semifinals
 

1990crow

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King of Melbourne - Djokovic (7 titles)
King of Paris - Nadal (11 titles)
King of Wimbledon - Federer (8 titles)

Federer (37) - Nadal (32) - Djokovic (31) comparisons
Grand Slam titles: 20 - 17 - 15
Grand Slam finals: 30 - 25 - 24
Grand Slam semifinals: 43 - 30 - 34
Win % against Top 10 opponents: 75% - 76.8% - 76.51%
Titles: 99 - 80 - 73

Head to Head: Federer 15 - Nadal 23, Nadal 25 - Djokovic 28, Federer 22 - Djokovic 25

Federer only: All 4 Grand Slam finals in 1 season reached three times (2006–2007, 2009), 3 men's Grand Slam titles per-year 3 times (2004, 2006–2007)
2 consecutive years winning 3 titles (2006–2007), 4 consecutive years winning 2+ titles (2004–2007), 23 consecutive men's Grand Slam semifinals, 5+ finals at all four Grand Slams

Nadal only: Most titles won at a single Grand Slam (11 RG), won three grand slams on 3 different surfaces in the same calendar year, 10 consecutive years of winning 1+ grand slam title (2005-2014), 16 consecutive victories in semifinals
If Joker player for another 5 years he will likely win 5 plus slams. Federer is done.
Its between rafa and joker for goat for me.
 

pepsi

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If Joker player for another 5 years he will likely win 5 plus slams. Federer is done.
Its between rafa and joker for goat for me.
We'll see I guees, once they've all retired it will be easier to make a judgement. Some of the records Federer has won't be beaten, same for Nadal.

I would like Nadal to claim 2 more non clay slams before considering him the best of the 3. At the moment 11 of his 17 slams come from one tournament and that's too high a % in my opinion.

Once they've turned 31, all 3 stand at having won 3 further grand slam titles. If Novak was to win 5 more slams after turning 32, it would be an achievement never done before.
 

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Djokovic could very well win more slams than all others, but he wont be regarded as GOAT by most because of racial resentment towards him. Americans hate him in particular.
This.

The Slavic \ Eastern European angle doesn't sit will with those who prefer the clean-cut Swiss angle in particular. Federer's fans are amongst the most disrespectful and pathetic flogs on the face of the planet across all sports considering the context of tennis.
 

Blue1980

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Yeah I agree, seperate discussions.

Djokovic will win more slams than Federer by the end of his career I think, which will make the whole discussion even more interesting amongst the men.
Hard to say, still 5 more to go which isn’t easy. Reckon he would have to do 4 more in the next 24 months if he’s going to overtake him.

Nadal could just keep winning the French and pinch an aus or US open to go ahead of Federer potentially too.
 

gopies1981

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I agree Monica Seles was very unlucky in career terms, not to slight her exemplary late 90s/early 00s career at all but she was on her way to lofty greatness. That was a great era for female champions, with Graf and Seles almost immediately dominating in the wake of the Evert-Navrat era, whilst the likes of Sabatini and ASV were excellent as well. Sabatini gets a bit forgotten because of her single slam and relatively early retirement, but she made at least one GS SF for 11 consecutive years, 4 YEC finals, was top 10 for almost her entire career.

I've always preferred Djokovic to Fedal personally. If you think back, he has been a #1 (or extremely close, #1 worthy) in these years: 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2018. Finished top 3 in the rankings for 11 of the past 12 seasons. Near unbeatable at his peak. Djoker is one of those players who will be appreciated more long after his career is over. The way he stormed through the AO finals matches this year was scary (although his three opponents clearly weren't playing anywhere near their best). Medvedev seemingly activated a higher level. Even last year at Wimbledon and USO, he was working his way back into dominant form, a bit like 2014.
Agree with Gaby. Was a brilliant player. Many people would remember the hype of kounikova but unlike kournikova Gabriela Sabatini who was extremely popular and easy on the eye to a lot of men actually won tournament’s 27 in total and won the US Open in 1990 playing Steffi Graf. Gaby in her career made the semi final stage of grand slams 18 times but lost 15 of them. Gaby suffered a lot of a poor second serve which steffi and Monica dominated. But she did have a very good career even Monica and Steffi said that they believe that Gaby was the most talented player they had played against. She had a magnificent one handed back hand and great volleys when she decided to actually come to the net. She was a Wimbledon finalist in 1991 and lost to steffi 8-6 in the 3rd set and was 2 points away on winning not only her second grand slam but Gaby would of been world no.1. Gaby was ranked in the top 10 from 1986-1995 and retired in 1996! Gaby also defeated steffi 11 times and defeated Monica Seles at the Italian open final in 1991 and 1992 when Monica was world no.1 and pretty much unbeatable especially in 1992! Gaby was also a silver medalist in 1988 won the end of season championships (the biggest title outside the grand slams) in 1988 and 1994 and reached a career high ranking of no.3 with a win loss ratio on 76%. Gaby retired at the age of 26!

In 2006 Gaby was inducted into the tennis hall of fame.

Gaby and Monica were actually good friends Monica stated that when she was away for the game for 2 years Gaby was the only player to call her. Monica was also deeply hurt that upon her return in August 1995 they asked the top 10 players at the time if Monica should be ranked no.1 with Steffi Graf all of the players said no that Monica should not have a protected ranking except for Gaby who started that she was the best player before she got stabbed and deserved to have the no.1 ranking with steffi. Gaby was imo too niece to be a champion and lacked that champion mentality.
 
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juss

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If Joker player for another 5 years he will likely win 5 plus slams. Federer is done.
Its between rafa and joker for goat for me.
If their careers ended now, Federer is the GOAT.
Sure that might change, but it's just prediction at this stage, you can't call those 2 objectively better than Fed (yet).
 
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