Rolling All Australian Team 2020

[Slysh]

Oh goodie I can use stats too.
In 2013 we made a grand final and had 1 player in the AA team.
In 2014 we finished fourth and had 2 palyers in the AA team.
In 2015 we were minor premiers and had 1 player in the AA team. (Richmond finished 5th and had 3)
Guys like stringer, rockcliffe, heppell, matthew boyd and shaun higgins all got picked before Walters. Don't even get me started on Joel Selwood - who was pretty much penciled in regardless of form.

Mate I lived in Melbourne for 4 years. Apart from Nat Fyfe and to a lesser extent Ross Lyon, Freo are a complete irrelevance to Victorians.

Give it a rest it is not vic bias...

2013 the Hawks had 3
2014 the Hawks had 3
2015 the Hawks had 3

In those same years

2015 the Swans had 3
2014 the Swans had 4
2015 the Swans had 1

Plenty of the selections are often terrible but that is because the selectors are terrible not because they are biased

 

[Ricky Vaughn]

And you reckon there is no correlation between media coverage (ie awareness) and AA selections done by those who rely on that on a daily basis?

No there isn't. The media bias is in Victoria, but state based selectors advocate for their guys, which counters any potential bias in selection.

This is far more in depth than I can be bothered going into fully, but it's hard to lock down bias with these awards as they're so subjective.
Just take last year. Based purely ladder position.
44% of the competition are interstate sides
37.5% of the top 8
25% of the top 4
45.5% of the All Australian team.

2018
37.5% of the top 8
25% of the top 4
50% of the bottom 6
32% of the AA team

2017
62.5% of the top 8
50% of the top 4
50% of the bottom 6
54% of the AA team

It's an imperfect measure, but it doesn't cherry pick specific examples, which I could do for every individual team for almost every season, regardless of their state of origin.

Do we just say 10 players go in from Interstate, no more no less? Do we tie it in to ladder positions? Or do we say "Leon Davis got picked over Mark Lecras that one year, clear Vic bias" and consider the issue fully resolved?

 

[Forward Press]

Exactly, it's not as if the awards are selected by only 4 Victorian judges. All of these awards are voted on by a mix of judges from different states (the quality of those judges is a different argument)

Interstate teams do get their share of media coverage in Victoria, to say otherwise is bullshit. Do they get as much as the big Victorian clubs? probably not but barracking for a smaller Victorian team I can tell you that there are plenty of times when the Eagles or another of the top interstate clubs get just as much if not more coverage than my team. Ditto the Bulldogs, St Kilda and North (who get very little as it is)

When I am in Melbourne, the talk is mostly about Victorian clubs.

That's perfectly fine. It's a similar situation in WA. I don't blame the Herald Sun or Channel 7 Melbourne for focusing on the 10 clubs in Victoria, but there are times when purported AFL-wide TV shows do tend to often ignore the interstate clubs - that's the real issue.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Would be interested to see your ranking of the top 5 all time rucks if it includes Gawn and Grundy.

Hard to compare eras but

Cox Sandi Grundy Gawn would beat any of the yesteryear rucks

 

[The mighty Hawks]

Just had a closer look on your behalf. 5 of the first 6 seasons of Walters' career he did not play more than 10 games so you can rule those out.

In 2017 and 2018, he missed 4 and 5 games respectively and once you miss that amount you really need to be one of the top 2-3 players in the comp to still get selected. He averaged less than 20 touches and kicked 22 goals both seasons so you can rule those out too.

In 2019 he was selected AA.

That leaves 2013, 2015 and 2016 as your chances for "Vic bias" to have robbed him. I could pick holes in those seasons too (for example Freo won 4 games in 2015) but let's look at the AA sides selected in those years...

In 2013..the players picked on the HFF's/FP's (excluding KPP) were Patrick Dangefield, Kieran Jack and Chad Wingard.
In 2015 they were Eddie Betts, Jake Stringer, Chad Wingard and Cyril Rioli
In 2016 they were Eddie Betts, Toby Greene and Cyril Rioli.

You can compare their individual seasons if you like (I couldn't be bothered) but it is worth noting that of those 10 selections, 7 played outside Victoria at the time (which is disproportionately high given the number of teams in Victoria and the success of Victorian teams at the time).

I'm not sure you can conclude "Vic Bias" has robbed Michale Walters of 5 AA's.

You really are dedicated to BF.

Great research..

 

[Virgin Dog]

Hard to compare eras but

Cox Sandi Grundy Gawn would beat any of the yesteryear rucks

Polly Farmer, John Nicholls and Syd Coventry would get smashed by modern day VFL rucks, especially thanks to the lack of height. Yes, eras are very difficult to compare, but context is what's important, looking at how much the player's achieve within the competition of the time they're playing in. For Gawn and Grundy to be top 5, they'd be pushing one of those guys out - not sure I'd be rating them that high when they've both got years of their careers to go

 

[eth-dog]

Polly Farmer, John Nicholls and Syd Coventry would get smashed by modern day VFL rucks, especially thanks to the lack of height. Yes, eras are very difficult to compare, but context is what's important, looking at how much the player's achieve within the competition of the time they're playing in. For Gawn and Grundy to be top 5, they'd be pushing one of those guys out - not sure I'd be rating them that high when they've both got years of their careers to go

Simon Madden needs to rate a mention too, as would Stephen Michael

 

[Virgin Dog]

Simon Madden needs to rate a mention too, as would Stephen Michael

Yeah could've named a few more - Roy Wright (dual Brownlow and hall of famer) is right up there, same with Gary Dempsey (Brownlow, 7x B+F).

Gawn and Grundy are great players no doubt, but they're not yet on the same level as Cox and Sandi, let alone all these other guys

 

[eth-dog]

Yeah could've named a few more - Roy Wright (dual Brownlow and hall of famer) is right up there, same with Gary Dempsey (Brownlow, 7x B+F).

Gawn and Grundy are great players no doubt, but they're not yet on the same level as Cox and Sandi, let alone all these other guys

Graham Moss was a Brownlow winner as well

 

[Tzatziki_Man]

Kane Lambert one too watch.

Awful start to the year...

His last two games,

Absolutely smashed it. If he continues with this form, he's in, no doubt, forward flank, or bench.

 

[SterlingArcher]

Oh goodie I can use stats too.
In 2013 we made a grand final and had 1 player in the AA team.
In 2014 we finished fourth and had 2 palyers in the AA team.
In 2015 we were minor premiers and had 1 player in the AA team. (Richmond finished 5th and had 3)
Guys like stringer, rockcliffe, heppell, matthew boyd and shaun higgins all got picked before Walters. Don't even get me started on Joel Selwood - who was pretty much penciled in regardless of form.

Mate I lived in Melbourne for 4 years. Apart from Nat Fyfe and to a lesser extent Ross Lyon, Freo are a complete irrelevance to Victorians.

Which years did Walters miss out due to Vic bias? C'mon, if he should have had 5 then name them and prove why. He hasn't even had 5 top 5 B&F finishes.

 

[Seeds]

Whens the last time we had 3 ruckmen this good?

Goldstein back to his best.

Gawn and Grundy also top 5 all time rucks.

Then there's NicNat too who if fully fit is as good as any of them.

Grundy isnt near a top 20 all time ruck let alone top 5.

 

[Fadge]

Grundy isnt near a top 20 all time ruck let alone top 5.

The guy has 2 All-Australians and 2 Copeland Trophies, and has only just turned 26 so entering his prime handful of years.

Go ahead and name 20 better...

 

[Seeds]

The guy has 2 All-Australians and 2 Copeland Trophies, and has only just turned 26 so entering his prime handful of years.

Go ahead and name 20 better...

Those awards really aint impressive for someone who wants to qualify as one of the greatest of all time in his position.

Sandilands, cox, madden, rehn just for starters. I would rate goldstein and gawn at their peaks superior as well.

Hell i probably would prefer to play a fit ottens in my team then grundy.

Grundy just doesnt dominate a game an impose himself like the greatest ruckman of all time can. He is a great tap ruckman but certaintly not in the elite best of best cateogory of tap ruckman. His around the ground work is ok but nothing special.

 

[Fadge]

Those awards really aint impressive for someone who wants to qualify as one of the greatest of all time in his position.

Sandilands, cox, madden, rehn just for starters. I would rate goldstein and gawn at their peaks superior as well.

Hell i probably would prefer to play a fit ottens in my team then grundy.

Grundy just doesnt dominate a game an impose himself like the greatest ruckman of all time can. He is a great tap ruckman but certaintly not in the elite best of best cateogory of tap ruckman. His around the ground work is ok but nothing special.

So you've named 4 ruckmen 'for starters' - I'll give you Sandi, Cox and Madden.

Rehn was good, but not at Grundy's level. Grundy has gone past Gawn, despite being two years younger, and Grundy's best to date is miles ahead of Goldy's best. And we likely are yet to see the best of Grundy.

I won't even mention Ottens, because that is laughable.

So none of this 'for starters', you made the big call, and currently you're 17 ruckmen short...

 

[Juddernaut08]

Those awards really aint impressive for someone who wants to qualify as one of the greatest of all time in his position.

Sandilands, cox, madden, rehn just for starters. I would rate goldstein and gawn at their peaks superior as well.

Hell i probably would prefer to play a fit ottens in my team then grundy.

Grundy just doesnt dominate a game an impose himself like the greatest ruckman of all time can. He is a great tap ruckman but certaintly not in the elite best of best cateogory of tap ruckman. His around the ground work is ok but nothing special.

Mate I cant believe im agreeing with fadge but you are delusional.

Grundys round the ground work is elite, perhaps second to Cox. What are you on about.

 

[PhatBoy]

Oh goodie I can use stats too.
In 2013 we made a grand final and had 1 player in the AA team.
In 2014 we finished fourth and had 2 palyers in the AA team.
In 2015 we were minor premiers and had 1 player in the AA team. (Richmond finished 5th and had 3)
Guys like stringer, rockcliffe, heppell, matthew boyd and shaun higgins all got picked before Walters. Don't even get me started on Joel Selwood - who was pretty much penciled in regardless of form.

Mate I lived in Melbourne for 4 years. Apart from Nat Fyfe and to a lesser extent Ross Lyon, Freo are a complete irrelevance to Victorians.

from a NSW perspective f*** I’m sick of reading this s**t.

 

[PhatBoy]

So you've named 4 ruckmen 'for starters' - I'll give you Sandi, Cox and Madden.

Rehn was good, but not at Grundy's level. Grundy has gone past Gawn, despite being two years younger, and Grundy's best to date is miles ahead of Goldy's best. And we likely are yet to see the best of Grundy.

I won't even mention Ottens, because that is laughable.

So none of this 'for starters', you made the big call, and currently you're 17 ruckmen short...

if I was picking a side for a finals match I’d pick Ottens any day of the week. If he played all the time at the same level he did in finals the discussion wouldn’t exist

 

[Fadge]

if I was picking a side for a finals match I’d pick Ottens any day of the week. If he played all the time at the same level he did in finals the discussion wouldn’t exist

Only Geelong supporters would even contemplate mentioning Ottens in the same conversation as Grundy.

The conversation doesn't exist, but for the polar opposite reason that you suggested.

 

[Fadge]

Those awards really aint impressive for someone who wants to qualify as one of the greatest of all time....

Another list for you:
Ruckmen with multiple All-Australians AND multiple club Best and Fairests BEFORE they turn 26.

Go.

 

[PhatBoy]

Only Geelong supporters would even contemplate mentioning Ottens in the same conversation as Grundy.

The conversation doesn't exist, but for the polar opposite reason that you suggested.

ok mate.

 

[Engimal v3]

Old man Goldstein is in ripping form. Went from being the best ruck in the comp, to a few years in the wilderness (3rd-5th best) and now has the top spot again in the back end of his career while his peers are in their 20s. Very impressive.

 

[Fadge]

Old man Goldstein is in ripping form. Went from being the best ruck in the comp, to a few years in the wilderness (3rd-5th best) and now has the top spot again in the back end of his career while his peers are in their 20s. Very impressive.

Yep, I'd have him ahead of Gawn (2nd) and Grundy (3rd) after six games.

Can he maintain it is the big question.

 

[Virgin Dog]

Another list for you:
Ruckmen with multiple All-Australians AND multiple club Best and Fairests BEFORE they turn 26.

Go.

There's a couple I can think of that basically fit the description:

Roy Wright had 2 Brownlows and 3 Best and Fairests before the age of 26. Only made AA once at 27 (but Brownlow >> AA), but he was recognised in the "Sporting Life Team of the Year" (which was considered the closest equivalent to AA at the time) 3 times before turning 26.
Gary Dempsey had a Brownlow, 2 Best and Fairests and an All Australian before the age of 26, as well as coming runner up in the Brownlow at 22.

In the modern age, Dean Cox had a few AA nods by 26, but no Best and Fairests (although to be fair, he was playing alongside Cousins, Judd and Kerr which is the greatest midfield trio in the AFL era)

Grundy is certainly putting himself in VERY good company. I would be hesitant to rate him among the all time greats until his career is over, but he's on track for it

 

[Happy Mastenator]

I’m loathe to count clubs best and fairest as meaning much when describing the very best. They are all different in their assessment of a players worth. Some are voted on who was actually the “best” others on who played their role “best”.

West Coasts used (I believe it’s changed) to be impossible to win if you missed more than a game or two.