Analysis Rome wasn't re-built in a day

[JB1975]

I'm hesitant to start another 'disaster' thread, because the round 1 loss was a nasty kick to the guts and such events can warp the way we think about the club and its prospects. I for one feel a bit warped. Nevertheless, I'm interested in people's thoughts about one particular question: Is it time for us to embrace a re-build?

Some people in these parts blame Buckley for driving us into the swamp, and believe that a diminutive messiah (Clarkson, not Blair) could easily turn the current rabble into a Rolls Royce, or that someone (anyone, please!) else could at least do a better job. Others believe that the coach is nearly irrelevant, that we simply don't have the cattle to compete, while others sit somewhere between these two positions. Others want to tear down the lot.

So do we need a re-build? If not, where does the turnaround come from? If yes:

• Partial or total? Maybe our list is only slightly 'unbalanced', maybe it is beyond salvation, or maybe it is just right.
• A re-build with or without Buckley?
• Which players should be delisted?
• Which players can/should be traded? Is Ben Reid's trade value diminishing faster than his hair?
• How much attention do we pay to recruiting players for need, or do we mostly focus on the draft?
• How long do you think a re-build will take before it yields a finals appearance?
• How long could a new coach be expected to weather the storm of a re-build?
• Just thought I'd put in another sentence for the sake of another question mark?

My own view is that our list is in need of some serious repair, but I also think that the purported skills-deficit has been overblown, and that a portion of our deficiencies can be corrected under a different regime. In short, I'm thinking a partial re-build with a new coach. Beyond that, I'm as lost in the wilderness as the next supporter.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Nuke the Holden Center from orbit and rebuild the entire club. Not just the list.

 

[Buckley is my hero]

Buckley has stated that we are on our second rebuild under his coaching. Would you like us to undergo a third rebuild now given we underwent about 13 changes to our list two years ago?

 

[JB1975]

Nuke the Holden Center from orbit and rebuild the entire club. Not just the list.

I'm not sure that Kim Jong-un takes requests, but your suggestion is acknowledged and appreciated.

 

[OniAu]

Rebuild yes. Go heavily into the draft to address our deficiencies.

Ill spew If I have to watch Blair & Smith play beyond this year

We seem to hang on to tried fringe players far too long also. Phillips, Thomas, Smith, Mayne, Crocker should all be moved on at end of this year. So our list manager needs a shake up also

 

[Matt_352]

Whole board plus Bucks have to go

 

[Matt_352]

Hine needs a good kick up the arse too

 

[left at home]

We don’t now need a total rebuild, but the next two draft and free agents yrs are very crucial.

 

[Kirby]

Nuke the Holden Center from orbit and rebuild the entire club. Not just the list.

 

[loki04]

Buckley has stated that we are on our second rebuild under his coaching. Would you like us to undergo a third rebuild now given we underwent about 13 changes to our list two years ago?

Do it until you get it right!

Imo we have't really did a proper "bottom out style" rebuild either, where we have gotten the true top end cream of the draft either. We have tried to do it on the run by being middling and trading in at high costs.


But not under Buckley.

 

[sr36]

Hine needs a good kick up the arse too

I always reckon that you can't blame the people below when you don't know what their instructions are/were.

 

[loki04]

I always reckon that you can't blame the people below when you don't know what their instructions are/were.

Do you think his instructions were to "get me a heap of players who can't kick"?

Or ignore building a young spine for 2000th midfielder/flanker who can't kick or are one paced (until recent draft type changed but still mids)?


Also Hine had god like status at the club no way he was being over ruled especially early on.

 

[loki04]

We don’t now need a total rebuild, but the next two draft and free agents yrs are very crucial.

We need a mini rebuild at least and that may require yes actually finishing bot 3-5 for a year or 2 to get the true elites.

But people would rather win an extra 3 games in a nothing year to weaken draft position, rather then just play youth and profit long term.

 

[loki04]

We don’t now need a total rebuild, but the next two draft and free agents yrs are very crucial.

Need to be in a good position at the draft table to ensure first choice of player!


I don't want to see a similar year to last where we are 3 - 8 at the halfway mark, have players like pendles and treloar playing injured for half the year so we can eek out some late season wins.
Bite the bullet send the experienced sore/injured typed off for surgery or repair give the kids licence to out there have a crack and learn.

Serves multiple purposes that way
a) gets your guns ready for a big preseason,
b) gives youth invaluable experience,
c) unearths players or allows you to make calls on them ie broomhead types,
d) results wont matter people wont care as they will see the light at the end of the tunnel pick 1 or 2 etc.

etc.

 

[wicksy]

While the OP is probably excellent, I am short of time. I did notice this question though.

• Which players should be delisted?
  

The answer... Everyone who cannot hit a target from 20m away by foot.

 

[left at home]

We need a mini rebuild at least and that may require yes actually finishing bot 3-5 for a year or 2 to get the true elites.

But people would rather win an extra 3 games in a nothing year to weaken draft position, rather then just play youth and profit long term.

If we have no chance of making the finals, then play all that have not played a game or just a few to see what they can do. No problem with that. If the decision is made early. We should have went hard at the last draft, there was some gems there.

 

[wicksy]

Hine needs a good kick up the arse too

Why does he get to stay!?
He's the one who has consistently brought in players with terrible foot skills.

 

[sideswipe]

I'm hesitant to start another 'disaster' thread, because the round 1 loss was a nasty kick to the guts and such events can warp the way we think about the club and its prospects. I for one feel a bit warped. Nevertheless, I'm interested in people's thoughts about one particular question: Is it time for us to embrace a re-build?

Some people in these parts blame Buckley for driving us into the swamp, and believe that a diminutive messiah (Clarkson, not Blair) could easily turn the current rabble into a Rolls Royce, or that someone (anyone, please!) else could at least do a better job. Others believe that the coach is nearly irrelevant, that we simply don't have the cattle to compete, while others sit somewhere between these two positions. Others want to tear down the lot.

So do we need a re-build? If not, where does the turnaround come from? If yes:

• Partial or total? Maybe our list is only slightly 'unbalanced', maybe it is beyond salvation, or maybe it is just right.
• A re-build with or without Buckley?
• Which players should be delisted?
• Which players can/should be traded? Is Ben Reid's trade value diminishing faster than his hair?
• How much attention do we pay to recruiting players for need, or do we mostly focus on the draft?
• How long do you think a re-build will take before it yields a finals appearance?
• How long could a new coach be expected to weather the storm of a re-build?
• Just thought I'd put in another sentence for the sake of another question mark?

My own view is that our list is in need of some serious repair, but I also think that the purported skills-deficit has been overblown, and that a portion of our deficiencies can be corrected under a different regime. In short, I'm thinking a partial re-build with a new coach. Beyond that, I'm as lost in the wilderness as the next supporter.

Hysterical timing (not the funny type, the panicky one) to be bringing this up after Rd 1. Not a lot that can be done about list management until later on, unless you are talking about tanking.

 

[JB1975]

We need a mini rebuild at least and that may require yes actually finishing bot 3-5 for a year or 2 to get the true elites.

But people would rather win an extra 3 games in a nothing year to weaken draft position, rather then just play youth and profit long term.

We'll have to lose some ladder position in order to gain draft position, I accept that. But how far will this year's draft get us?

I'd like us to take a bigger bite out of the draft in the next two years, which might mean trading decent players for draft picks. The problem with this approach is that a new coach (big assumption there!) might then be left with an even bigger basket case of a team, one which won't come good for 3-4 years. This is not a prospect most new coaches will gladly take on.

In other words, there's a tension between re-building the list and replacing a coach, one which isn't easily resolved.

 

[left at home]

Need to be in a good position at the draft table to ensure first choice of player!


I don't want to see a similar year to last where we are 3 - 8 at the halfway mark, have players like pendles and treloar playing injured for half the year so we can eek out some late season wins.
Bite the bullet send the experienced sore/injured typed off for surgery or repair give the kids licence to out there have a crack and learn.

Serves multiple purposes that way
a) gets your guns ready for a big preseason,
b) gives youth invaluable experience,
c) unearths players or allows you to make calls on them ie broomhead types,
d) results wont matter people wont care as they will see the light at the end of the tunnel pick 1 or 2 etc.

etc.

Has to be done early this year, and players told why.
I think we will draft Ned’s son so there chb covered. Mclarty looks like he can cover both ends, so we need another forward or back in the tall department.
An out side runner or two who can deliver the footy, at the wings would be the making of the team.

 

[adammania9]

we need a re-build? If not, where does the turnaround come from? If yes:

• Partial or total? Maybe our list is only slightly 'unbalanced', maybe it is beyond salvation, or maybe it is just right. Total rebuild. The ship has sailed, the list is filled too much with mediocrity and unbalance.
• A re-build with or without Buckley? Without. This is the third year now that he shouldn't have been in charge.
• Which players should be delisted? Older ones who offer little leadership - Varcoe, Greenwood, Mayne, Blair etc. Limited players such as Smith, Aish and Broomhead.
• Which players can/should be traded? Is Ben Reid's trade value diminishing faster than his hair? Keep Ben Reid, he'll be good for depth in his last years. Can certainly play but like Moore before him, has far too little support. I don't mind trading Fasolo, Langdon, Scharenberg or Phillips who all may have some trade value.
• How much attention do we pay to recruiting players for need, or do we mostly focus on the draft? The only pricey need is Tom Lynch, but I also have my eye on Martin Gleeson, Darcy Byrne-Jones and Brayden Fiorini. The most important thing of all is the draft - get some picks, take a couple of KPP's and a small forward.
• How long do you think a re-build will take before it yields a finals appearance? Starting from this year? Carlton have steered the ship very quickly with a far worse off list than we had so either 2021 or 2022.
• How long could a new coach be expected to weather the storm of a re-build? Three years is the minimum needed during a rebuild.
• Just thought I'd put in another sentence for the sake of another question mark? I hate Richmond.

 

[JB1975]

Hysterical timing (not the funny type, the panicky one) to be bringing this up after Rd 1. Not a lot that can be done about list management until later on, unless you are talking about tanking.

I think that the questions and issues pre-date last week's game, and they'll certainly go beyond it. As for list management, it seems at least as relevant a topic as coaching, which never seems to suffer for attention in these parts.

 

[hellfire]

With the right resources, I think you could actually rebuild Rome in 6-7 years, though.

 

[loki04]

We'll have to lose some ladder position in order to gain draft position, I accept that. But how far will this year's draft get us?

I'd like us to take a bigger bite out of the draft in the next two years, which might mean trading decent players for draft picks. The problem with this approach is that a new coach (big assumption there!) might then be left with an even bigger basket case of a team, one which won't come good for 3-4 years. This is not a prospect most new coaches will gladly take on.

In other words, there's a tension between re-building the list and replacing a coach, one which isn't easily resolved.

Oh yeah I also would like to see us trade into this draft, it is an amazing draft coming. We have an excess of type of commodity (the contested mid) that other teams may want/need sure it could cause some pain short term but over all strengthen us. The question is WHO to sell off and how much can we get in such a rated draft!


If we could walk away from next draft pool with Lukosious (top 2 pick bottom 2 finish) and I.Hill (traded in top 10) from top 10 that would be a brilliant outcome or a Rankine and King draft would also equally be good.


Part of the QQ on Murray cost, is this years draft pool high end talent. It is also why Hine tried to deflect that we would of used the pick on Quaynor and Kelly anyway (which doesn't make sense in any way as now we have 2 x 3rds which puts us in a lesser position points wise).


Edit JB1975 : on unwilling coaches: I disagree most new coaches do take on long term rebuilds, frankly they have too unless they taking over an already contending team ala C.Scott/Lyon/Longmire.


I also think supporters will be patient if they know the club is doing it and why, most know it takes 3 -5 years to complete fully so long as you see consistent progression forwards. Like Carlton is seeing under Bolton for example, the club has gone through stages each year under him.
The difference is the club under no stage with Buckley went balls deep on the rebuild they did a foot in each side trying to be a competitive top 8 aspirant avoiding the bottom end of the ladder and subsequent draft benefits. They often spruiked flag ready etc and I still believe they think they have the list to do it!

 

[domin8tors]

Simple answer. Tom Lynch.. straighten us up. Elliott and Daicos to crumb..