Test Root V Anderson and Broad.

[Coops93]

Broad has pouted in the past, but he's also bent his back and banged the ball in at times too. It depends what mood he's in as he's definitely done both at times.

It's been an openish secret for a while both, Jimmy in particular, are openly dissonant. It's not surprising in Broads case given his father has been pulling string for him for a long time, but Jimmy has been enabled because he was so good and has been an elder statesman for so long.

 

[Tyberious Funk]

One of the things to come out of the accusations from Azeem Rafiq was that Root didn't partake in racist comments... but he also did nothing to stop them. When you combine this with the original accusations from Kevin Pieterson about Broad, Anderson, Swann and Prior being toxic, and players like Vaughan, Ballance, Bresnan and Hales all being accused of being bullies... it makes you wonder what the English dressing room is like. Granted, out of that lot, only Broad and Anderson are still in the English camp. But culture can run very deep, and Root doesn't seem strong enough to deal with any issues -- or perhaps he lacks support? By all accounts, Silverwood is a 'company man', so I can't imagine he's doing much to really help.

I have no issue with England being in disarray -- I love to see them cop an Ashes thrashing. But not at the expense of player's wellbeing.

 

[anchor man]

A lot seems to have been made about the English players not coming down to support Root - maybe there was a covid protocol in place?

I may be wrong, but I wouldn't think so. All players had been in contact during the game.

 

[revo333]

 

[The hands of stone]

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Ah the 'King of Spain' running the show ....and good to see nice colourful PP presentations still hold weight

 

[Gethelred]

Archer since the 2019 ashes has been disappointing in 9 tests he has picked up 20 wickets @ 42.90.

And 7 of those tests were in england, South Africa and new zealand which are considered bowler friendly conditions.

I think the lust has come off pretty quick with Jofra.

He had an awesome series against us in 19 but never backed it up afterwards.

I'd argue they bowled him into the ground.

They tried to use him as a faster version of what Stokes has been bowling this series; bouncers, to a stacked leg side, to buy a wicket when batting seemed easy. Sure, Wagner makes it work, but Wagner's trick is picking a pull or a hook, and forcing you to try and play a hook through midwicket on the deck or a pull along the ground just that mite too high for the shot; it's not just 'fast bowler, steepling bounce', there's genuine thought behind how and what he bowls. Stokes and Archer just bang it in and pray, and sure it works; batters these days aren't strong on the back foot, techniques on the back foot not being what they once were. They wind up going at more than 5 an over when they do it, because that's the consequence.

Archer is as injury prone as Wood, but unlike Wood is forced into long spells of 8+ overs banging it in when plan A isn't working. No wonder (given those around him, who are more than willing to undermine their captain) he looked petulant and exhausted from time to time.

 

[HTPunter]

Other thing is there's a lot of talk about the bowlers, and how they're missing Stone and Archer etc but really, 2 innings wins and a 9 wicket win isn't it? Batsmen are ******* hopeless and they can't make enough runs to win regardless of who they've got bowling

 

[Gethelred]

Other thing is there's a lot of talk about the bowlers, and how they're missing Stone and Archer etc but really, 2 innings wins and a 9 wicket win isn't it? Batsmen are ******* hopeless and they can't make enough runs to win regardless of who they've got bowling

I think it's more to do with the theory that we've been able to bowl them out well before they've made anything resembling a decent score and they haven't been able to replicate it. But any theory predicated on being able to bowl an international side out for below 200 away is a bit of a fraught one.

 

[PhatBoy]

I think it's more to do with the theory that we've been able to bowl them out well before they've made anything resembling a decent score and they haven't been able to replicate it. But any theory predicated on being able to bowl an international side out for below 200 away is a bit of a fraught one.

Worth remembering too that even the best attacks short of WI, SA, and McGrath/Warne/Gillespie and Lee can’t operate without scoreboard pressure. Doesn’t matter how good your attack is, if an opponent is going to the crease with sub-200 as their target they’re free to approach the innings however the hell they want. There’s no onus on them to be defensive, cautious, attacking etc - they can play whatever is in front of them knowing that if they execute even reasonably they will take control of the game

 

[Gethelred]

Worth remembering too that even the best attacks short of WI, SA, and McGrath/Warne/Gillespie and Lee can’t operate without scoreboard pressure. Doesn’t matter how good your attack is, if an opponent is going to the crease with sub-200 as their target they’re free to approach the innings however the hell they want. There’s no onus on them to be defensive, cautious, attacking etc - they can play whatever is in front of them knowing that if they execute even reasonably they will take control of the game

It's why the 2005 Ashes was so captivating. For the first time in a long time, that Australian batting side couldn't just get to 300+ and McGrath/Warne their way to victory. Flintoff/Jones/Harmison knicked off all the lefties and that left Ponting as the only bloke still standing from the upper order as Martyn kept going the upper cut down third man's throat.

Forcing their lower order to try and get them to a competitive score AND bowl them to victory in consecutive tests was mindblowing. That they came within an umpire's dodgy call of pulling it off is a testament to their quality; imagine if Australia had won that Edgebaston test, going 2 up with England needing 3 games to reclaim the Ashes.

It would've been highway robbery, but it still almost happened.

 

[PhatBoy]

It's why the 2005 Ashes was so captivating. For the first time in a long time, that Australian batting side couldn't just get to 300+ and McGrath/Warne their way to victory. Flintoff/Jones/Harmison knicked off all the lefties and that left Ponting as the only bloke still standing from the upper order as Martyn kept going the upper cut down third man's throat.

Forcing their lower order to try and get them to a competitive score AND bowl them to victory in consecutive tests was mindblowing. That they came within an umpire's dodgy call of pulling it off is a testament to their quality; imagine if Australia had won that Edgebaston test, going 2 up with England needing 3 games to reclaim the Ashes.

It would've been highway robbery, but it still almost happened.

F*** you operate on the same cricketing wavelength as me

 

[conrad_437]

Been a while since I read KP's book in 2014, and I know it's KP, but from memory he did discuss in-depth the culture of the English changeroom and especially the bowling cartel. I believe he mostly referenced Broad, Anderson and Swann as the main culprits, who would openly berate teammates on-field who committed mistakes off their bowling. This was backed up by Punter and also Steve Harmison in separate articles.

This does lend credence to the idea that Root is probably ineffective in properly leading a team with senior players in Broad and Anderson 'supporting' him. Just far too timid in his overall approach and doesn't seem the type to say what's on his mind, in fear of affecting relationships e.g. the case of Azeem Rafiq.

 

[Jim Prideaux]

I believe they are as mistaken as the dills who included him in the touring party.

By contrast, Root and Anderson were my two inked in players for this touring party.

I have watched Anderson trundle in on all continents. His effort is the same, irrespective of the conditions. He is an out and out champion.

The same ones who said Broad would be licking his lips about Warner? I swear people on this forum don’t actually watch cricket. Broad was only here for injury cover, and even that was a mistake.

 

[Jim Prideaux]

It's why the 2005 Ashes was so captivating. For the first time in a long time, that Australian batting side couldn't just get to 300+ and McGrath/Warne their way to victory. Flintoff/Jones/Harmison knicked off all the lefties and that left Ponting as the only bloke still standing from the upper order as Martyn kept going the upper cut down third man's throat.

Forcing their lower order to try and get them to a competitive score AND bowl them to victory in consecutive tests was mindblowing. That they came within an umpire's dodgy call of pulling it off is a testament to their quality; imagine if Australia had won that Edgebaston test, going 2 up with England needing 3 games to reclaim the Ashes.

It would've been highway robbery, but it still almost happened.

McGrath going down was a fairly big part of that. Still, you can only beat what’s in front of you and after Lords, McGrath wasn’t.

I was playing over there at the time, English supporters still weren’t confident initially, I thought we were in big trouble without McGrath - he was in their heads.

 

[Gethelred]

McGrath going down was a fairly big part of that. Still, you can only beat what’s in front of you and after Lords, McGrath wasn’t.

I was playing over there at the time, English supporters still weren’t confident initially, I thought we were in big trouble without McGrath - he was in their heads.

No other player - with the possible exception of Herath - has managed to make subatomic amounts of movement look like right angle deviation in the mind of the person holding the bat.

 

[Jim Prideaux]

No other player - with the possible exception of Herath - has managed to make subatomic amounts of movement look like right angle deviation in the mind of the person holding the bat.

Ge had the ability to put 10 balls in a row on the exact same spot, and then on the 11th move it just enough to catch the edge, or slip through the gate.

I remember once they had him mic’d up bowling to David Warner, he explained his plan for the next 5 balls, and it went down like it was scripted - Warner out caught behind on the 5th ball.

 

[Gethelred]

Ge had the ability to put 10 balls in a row on the exact same spot, and then on the 11th move it just enough to catch the edge, or slip through the gate.

I remember once they had him mic’d up bowling to David Warner, he explained his plan for the next 5 balls, and it went down like it was scripted - Warner out caught behind on the 5th ball.

It's funny, because my Youtube feed just gave me his 8 for against England earlier today, before we even had this conversation.

None of the balls in that spell moved dramatically off the surface; it was a combination of angle and the slightest possible movement on a genuine 5th stump line before pitching that just beat bat after bat after bat. Nigh perfect bowling.

 

[Jim Prideaux]

It's funny, because my Youtube feed just gave me his 8 for against England earlier today, before we even had this conversation.

None of the balls in that spell moved dramatically off the surface; it was a combination of angle and the slightest possible movement on a genuine 5th stump line before pitching that just beat bat after bat after bat. Nigh perfect bowling.

Couldn’t agree more. I feel like it would a good video for many to watch right now. All well and good to beat the bat, but if you don’t catch the edge or the pads or stumps, it doesn’t mean much.

 

[The hands of stone]

Been a while since I read KP's book in 2014, and I know it's KP, but from memory he did discuss in-depth the culture of the English changeroom and especially the bowling cartel. I believe he mostly referenced Broad, Anderson and Swann as the main culprits, who would openly berate teammates on-field who committed mistakes off their bowling. This was backed up by Punter and also Steve Harmison in separate articles.

This does lend credence to the idea that Root is probably ineffective in properly leading a team with senior players in Broad and Anderson 'supporting' him. Just far too timid in his overall approach and doesn't seem the type to say what's on his mind, in fear of affecting relationships e.g. the case of Azeem Rafiq.

Crossed paths with Swann when he was at Northants , well before his test days .
Was exactly like that , lippy to opposition as well as his teamates .
Off field was ok with us but you could tell his some of his teammates weren't massive fans.

At the time over there he was better known for soaking his spinning fingers in his own urine to toughen them up.

 

[anchor man]

Crossed paths with Swann when he was at Northants , well before his test days .
Was exactly like that , lippy to opposition as well as his teamates .
Off field was ok with us but you could tell his some of his teammates weren't massive fans.

At the time over there he was better known for soaking his spinning fingers in his own urine to toughen them up.

Swanny was like so many English cricketers over time, wanted to hand it out, but sooked when it was responded to. So many of the English Gents took special leave after trying to match the Aussie sledging. A few have gone home early.

 

[Marshland]

Anderson and Broad are toxic individuals.

Not a surprise Root is finding them difficult.

 

[revo333]

Been a while since I read KP's book in 2014, and I know it's KP, but from memory he did discuss in-depth the culture of the English changeroom and especially the bowling cartel. I believe he mostly referenced Broad, Anderson and Swann as the main culprits, who would openly berate teammates on-field who committed mistakes off their bowling. This was backed up by Punter and also Steve Harmison in separate articles.

This does lend credence to the idea that Root is probably ineffective in properly leading a team with senior players in Broad and Anderson 'supporting' him. Just far too timid in his overall approach and doesn't seem the type to say what's on his mind, in fear of affecting relationships e.g. the case of Azeem Rafiq.

There was a BBL game where KP was commenting with Punter and KP started to spill the beans on that era but didn't want to mention anyone names and Punter guessed he was talking about Broad, Anderson, Swann and Prior and KP said he was correct.

It was a fascinating conversation for about 5 minutes and the game they were commentating on got totally forgotten.