List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

Is Ross still the man for the job?


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raffrox

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Fair assumption, as is that the players who have come to Fremantle want to play under Lyon. But for perspective, didn't Hogan accept a reduced contract while Neale cracked one of the highest paid players list?
Yeah. The mind just ticks over with Neale as far as why he left as his steadiness and consistency is something we miss .

Who know what the reasons were for sure though.
 

hoss

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Salim gives as good as he gets and then some.

Nice of you to be Salims white knight though.

You obviously haven't seen how people have posted towards me. Or maybe you have and it doesn't count because you don't agree with me?
Nah I hardly even notice who individual posters are, just here for the footy talk. The personal stuff bores me to tears. Sorry I don't know whether I agree with your opinions or not. Chances are I agree with some of your views and disagree with others. That's usually the case.

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FreoMonocle

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Who know what the reasons were for sure though.
Most footballers will never see those sorts of wages after they finish footy and Neale was offered an eye watering payrise. The difference between what we were paying and his new contract over the course of his footy years is half a lifetimes salary for the ordinary man, who needs other reasons. While, I'd have been deleriously happy with him staying - I would have thought him a fool to turn it down as he has the rest of his life, his wife and future kids to think of.
 

tonygeeks

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So if I can’t say we’ve stagnated this year because there are 7 games to play, probably not fair to say we’ve improved either? Or is it only ok to you to present the positive spin on things?
Derr , surely you know how this place works by now


The funny thing is they love him so much but he ****ing hates footy fans


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Nodgey

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This always frustrates me. Pre-season I too probably would have predicted 10-12 wins and hopefully knocking on the door of the top 8. But when you're comfortably sitting inside the 8 with a 7-5 WL record after having knocked off the Pies and Power, its reasonable to upgrade your expectations. Winning just 3 of your final 10 games to limp to that 10 win 'pass' mark isn't that exciting.
 

Joao

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This always frustrates me. Pre-season I too probably would have predicted 10-12 wins and hopefully knocking on the door of the top 8. But when you're comfortably sitting inside the 8 with a 7-5 WL record after having knocked off the Pies and Power, its reasonable to upgrade your expectations. Winning just 3 of your final 10 games to limp to that 10 win 'pass' mark isn't that exciting.
I agree as an emotionally involved fan. I do this myself.

It makes no sense if we perform better than expected to adjust your expectations up if you are not willing to adjust them down again if we then perform worse again. Development and performance are not linear and if you treat them as such you will consistently run into this problem.

I definitely raised my expectations after the Pies game. As such, the Blues game hit hard (Dees not so much). Going into the Derby my expectation were low again (not 2-19 low) so it was easier to take than Carlton. I think we are better than last year, but not by as much as I thought at 7-5.
 

kingswood71

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This always frustrates me. Pre-season I too probably would have predicted 10-12 wins and hopefully knocking on the door of the top 8. But when you're comfortably sitting inside the 8 with a 7-5 WL record after having knocked off the Pies and Power, its reasonable to upgrade your expectations. Winning just 3 of your final 10 games to limp to that 10 win 'pass' mark isn't that exciting.
Half glass full :)....Win the next 7, play finals :)
 

nurries

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You're implying that the players brought a lack of effort to the derby.

We got smashed out of the centre with Sandilands and Crowden spending a lot of time in the square after being out of the side longterm.

We won the inside 50's.

We kicked 2.19.

There are 90 point losses where serious questions need to be asked and there are 90 point losses where you can say that nothing went right and we were simply outclassed.
I think a serious question would be why play Sandilands and Crowden then if they were going to be liabilities?
There was little accountabilities by experienced midfielders on their opponents. We won the inside 50's which, once again, the entries were a bucket of sh*t. I guess it's a shame the game is not scored by winning the I50 entries.
We kicked 2.19? Don't you think that's another serious question that should be asked? That's the most inaccurate score line for any game in the last 44 years!!

We were outclassed, but surely you can see there is also a set of "serious" questions that need to be asked.
 

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blue shark

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I think a serious question would be why play Sandilands and Crowden then if they were going to be liabilities?
There was little accountabilities by experienced midfielders on their opponents. We won the inside 50's which, once again, the entries were a bucket of s**t. I guess it's a shame the game is not scored by winning the I50 entries.
We kicked 2.19? Don't you think that's another serious question that should be asked? That's the most inaccurate score line for any game in the last 44 years!!

We were outclassed, but surely you can see there is also a set of "serious" questions that need to be asked.
Will be interesting to see what, or if any changes are made for next year. But If Belly isn't getting some feedback from some of his old mates I would be surprised.
Does anyone really trust the internal reviews that the club signs off on?
 

raffrox

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You're implying that the players brought a lack of effort to the derby.

We got smashed out of the centre with Sandilands and Crowden spending a lot of time in the square after being out of the side longterm.

We won the inside 50's.

We kicked 2.19.

There are 90 point losses where serious questions need to be asked and there are 90 point losses where you can say that nothing went right and we were simply outclassed.
Well this week is pretty important in seeing if what you're saying is true. If it is just all circumstantial stuff (i.e. we were outclassed) then there's no reason why we should have a poor game this week and possibly three poor (or 4 if you count the Demons game) games in a row.

I hope we win and smash the Hawks but the excuses will start to run out if it's another shocker.
 

XXRL

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I read threads on all club boards, not just my own. I enjoy seeing how other supporters are viewing things.
I never ever read the Eagles board because I honestly couldn't care less what they have to say about anything.

If they're as ignorant on their board as they are in real life then I'm positive my life is better for not finding out "how other supporters are viewing things".
 

FreoMonocle

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This always frustrates me. Pre-season I too probably would have predicted 10-12 wins and hopefully knocking on the door of the top 8. But when you're comfortably sitting inside the 8 with a 7-5 WL record after having knocked off the Pies and Power, its reasonable to upgrade your expectations. Winning just 3 of your final 10 games to limp to that 10 win 'pass' mark isn't that exciting.
Coincides with all 3 x b22 forwards all going down to injury, with the 3rd tall (Lobb) returning last week. I could take a 50 meter freestyle team to the olypmics, if I lost my 3 best swimmers I will still be able to field a team - but the depth is nowhere near as proficient as the elites and my chances for medals have gone out the window. The structure that we trained with last summer and played with a lot of this year all went missing, we are struggling now with kicks out of defence and kicks to the forward line. Losing 1 of Hogan or Tabs was going to make things harder, but losing our 2 main kpfs completely tipped the apple cart over.

Yep, it aint exciting and the footy gods are cruel masters, they could have spread the injury load around the park better rather than seeming to single out our talls :( S&C issue - or just cruel luck, either way it's fubar'd the structure of the entire team.
 

Freomaniac

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Agree.

But can Ross coach a style of footy that can win a GF?

I don't think he can.
It already has been Proven that one side has used similar type of Ross Lyon tactics to win a flag: Richmond of 2017.

Go watch the 2nd and 3rd quarters of the 2017 AFL grand final between richmond and crows.

Then go watch the 2nd and 3rd quarter of the 2013 Prelim final between freo and swans. Both the tigers and dockers tackled the opposition to near death and kicked 4 goals each in the 2nd and 3rd quarters.
 

Johnny Dalmas

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Man, there is always an excuse offered for our forward play.

Kicking 2.19 is beyond excuses. Its not as if our coaching team has a track record of coaching high performing forward lines.

Back in 2013 after losing the GF, Ross said we need to become "a two goal better team". Regardless of who has been on the list, our average points per game has been on a downward trend ever since (for completed seasons).

The problem has been well identified; its the capability(?)/willingness(?) to do something about it that appears to be lacking.

The track record is that this coaching group doesn't coach an effective forward setup. Last week was no outlier.
 

Johnny Dalmas

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It already has been Proven that one side has used similar type of Ross Lyon tactics to win a flag: Richmond of 2017.

Go watch the 2nd and 3rd quarters of the 2017 AFL grand final between richmond and crows.

Then go watch the 2nd and 3rd quarter of the 2013 Prelim final between freo and swans. Both the tigers and dockers tackled the opposition to near death and kicked 4 goals each in the 2nd and 3rd quarters.
For mine it isn't the Lyon "game plan" that is the problem (which has changed quite a bit over the journey anyway). More generally I think we over-rate game plans. There are so many different ways to win a footy game. What all winning teams share in common though is an ability to execute their game plan consistently and under pressure.

For me, the biggest knock on Lyon as a coach is the long term track record that his teams have for being poor in execution with ball-in-hand.

You can definitely win a flag with a strong contested ball/stoppage driven/defense first strategy (which has been his most common, although not only game strategy). But on those occasions that you _do_ get the ball, you still have to execute your own offensive tactics (whatever they happen to be) with skill.

Getting the ball at the contest will give you enough drive to create inside 50s but without skill in ball movement they will be "poor" inside 50s that don't amount to much. Or without skill in actual goal kicking they will be points instead of goals. Not being able to execute under pressure also limits the ball movement tactics you can employ which makes it easier for the oppo to arrange their own defensive structures (which in turn limits your offensive effectiveness).

Ross Lyon teams that have played in grand finals have created enough opportunities to win them but have suffered from really bad luck (that bounce of the ball was a shocker for Milne) or have failed to take advantage of their opportunities to actually win.
 

mayne iac

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This always frustrates me. Pre-season I too probably would have predicted 10-12 wins and hopefully knocking on the door of the top 8. But when you're comfortably sitting inside the 8 with a 7-5 WL record after having knocked off the Pies and Power, its reasonable to upgrade your expectations. Winning just 3 of your final 10 games to limp to that 10 win 'pass' mark isn't that exciting.
You are not sitting comfortably inside the 8 mid season with a 7-5 WL record, inside the 8 yes, comfortable? No.
 

PurpleEyes

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Man, there is always an excuse offered for our forward play.

Kicking 2.19 is beyond excuses. Its not as if our coaching team has a track record of coaching high performing forward lines.

Back in 2013 after losing the GF, Ross said we need to become "a two goal better team". Regardless of who has been on the list, our average points per game has been on a downward trend ever since (for completed seasons).

The problem has been well identified; its the capability(?)/willingness(?) to do something about it that appears to be lacking.

The track record is that this coaching group doesn't coach an effective forward setup. Last week was no outlier.
(NB: All stats are for Home & Away games only, finals not included).
Since the 2013 season, only 3 of the 18 teams have averaged more points for in 2019 (Brisbane Lions, Greater Western Sydney and Melbourne).
The average in 2013 was 92.8. So far in 2019 it is 80.2.

Fremantle have gone from 92.5 down to 74.8. That is, we average 17.7 less points in 2019 than we did in 2013. There have been 6 teams with bigger drops than Fremantle. Most notably, Hawthorn has gone from 114.7 down to 76.1, a 38.6 drop.

Geelong (the current 2019 top scorers) have gone from 109.5 down to 93.3, a 16.2 point drop.
 

Becky2Belts

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There’s a lot of fear of success and fear of rocking the boat on this website.

Goals change. Coming into the year, 10 wins might have been a pass mark in some eyes (pretty low bar in my mind but we are in a much touted rebuild after all).

But at 7-5 and with some statement wins on the board, you’re entitled to reassess and upgrade the goals. That “season expectation” thread charts as much, people were happy to say yeah missing finals from here would be pretty poor. Now that that’s potentially off the table, people are reverting back to oh well we never anticipated 2019 to be the year we made finals etc etc.

Given the way they were trending late last year, the Cats most likely never anticipated being a game clear on top at this stage of the season. If they collapse from here and scrape eighth do you think geelong fans will be like oh well we said at the start of the year we just wanted to make finals so 2019 was a success. Hell no.

Liverpool probably would have taken being within a game of top spot if it was offered, but given where they were at the mid point of the season it was a let down. Given our start, the dramatic fall away (yet again) is a big red flag.
 
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theGav56

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I agree as an emotionally involved fan. I do this myself.

It makes no sense if we perform better than expected to adjust your expectations up if you are not willing to adjust them down again if we then perform worse again. Development and performance are not linear and if you treat them as such you will consistently run into this problem.

I definitely raised my expectations after the Pies game. As such, the Blues game hit hard (Dees not so much). Going into the Derby my expectation were low again (not 2-19 low) so it was easier to take than Carlton. I think we are better than last year, but not by as much as I thought at 7-5.
What you need to compare is your prediction if we had been missing Pearce, Lobb, Hogan and the rest.
 

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