List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

Is Ross still the man for the job?


  • Total voters
    328

Taylor

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Jul 16, 2009
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Team with best 22 looks better than team with injuries, shocking. Kick long and hope for a contested mark is not the way I see the club succeeding, you do so I guess that makes sense why you are all over keeping Ross long term.
The short lead is the holy grail, that's why most clubs defend it. Last two home games are polar opposites of that if you care to review it for yourself. Sydney zoned up shallow to block those kicks, Geelong set up longer to back themselves to beat us in the air.

All teams can be defended against like that, the shallow zone, but if you get out the side it makes for fast transition against. So when a switched on team is defending it will force every team to kick long down the line. The teams with really good contested marks will do better. Either their forward will mark, their defender will or it spills.

Whenever we have been allowed the space to play the shorter game, running and carrying we have.

I really would hope that people notice that the teams at the top of the ladder that play a set back defense and back themselves to intercept then switch on us, creating more space - have been troubled by our game plan. It's in our best interests for them to continue playing this way, once our use tidies up they will have to shift their defensive zones and give up their outside space on the turnover to shut us down.
 

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kingswood71

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Did you say it isn't? You are using other teams faults to excuse our own.
no...I actually stated that its all related to poor forward entries. I then also said that all teams suffer from this and we are not alone.
Now you can take that as an excuse if you so desire but its merely a fact.
 

theGav56

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Raffrox isn't alone, Ross is a polarising figure, even within one's own mind
No you are right. Quite a few flip-floppers have emerged. No doubt the fix is winning though, and that is the task that lies in front of us now for 2020. A reasonable challenge, and one I am confident about.
 

The Joker

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Lyon is coach now and will coach in 2020. End of story .
You better get used to it and who knows you might even join the majority of supporters who accept the fact and have got behind the club. ;)
Seriously? I dropped my crystal met... ball, I mean, my crystal ball a little while back and it hasn't worked since!


I love it when fans get hooked on a coach, they defend that campaigner like he was the father they never had!
 

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The Joker

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And our recent games have also had a different game plan, using three rucks for example, and playing much smaller in defence. Who says Lyon only has one game plan?
Not sure personnel counts for a game plan.

The fact he chose 3 genuine ruckmen proves more of the same and that he was just running out of options. Same goes for the small defence you speak of!
 

The Joker

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This is something I can't seem to get people to understand. I use this place to vent sometimes, particularly during games.
Most come in here because they know they would get laughed at if they tried to have a conversation about a game they have never played!

It's one of the great benefits of hiding behind an alias!
 

salim malik

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Seriously? I dropped my crystal met... ball, I mean, my crystal ball a little while back and it hasn't worked since!


I love it when fans get hooked on a coach, they defend that campaigner like he was the father they never had!

Yep seriously, last time I checked he was contracted for 2020 and the club will honour the contract. Not to hard to understand for most but then there is ...........
 

Johnny Dalmas

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Oct 16, 2015
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Like Salim I think the club will honour its contract and Lyon will coach in 2020.

I feel, however and unfortunately, that we may have missed an opportunity to get a bit ruthless, to go back to "2011 mode" and really test the market to see if we are actually doing as well as we can.

Lyon no longer fits the profile of a premiership coach. No coach in over 150 years of VFL/AFL history has won their first premiership after 300 games.

Its going to be one hell of an outlier if he becomes a premiership coach this late in his career.

More specifically, he's been coaching for 13 years at two different clubs with a whole bunch of different players and footy ops support staff and he has only once shown himself able to construct an offense that ranked inside the top half of the league for efficiency: 2014 with us. That year we ranked 9th in the league in terms of disposals needed to generate a score. In every other year, his teams have ranked in the bottom half of the league for the number of disposals needed to generate a score (ie, total season score/total season disposals).

By way of contrast only one premiership team since 2007 has ranked in the bottom half of the league for offensive efficiency: the Bulldogs in 2016. Like I said, one hell of an outlier.

In short, his teams just need too many damn disposals to generate a score. _All_ of his teams regardless of Reiwoldt or Pavlich, or Hogan or even good ol' Tabs. Doesn't matter whether its Milne or Ballas or Walters. Lenny Hayes or Fyfe. Whether its an old team full of role players or a young team full of potential. Under the roof or at Subi or Burswood. Doesn't matter if the assistants were Kirk or Silvagni or Hale or Sumich. Both in winning seasons or in losing seasons Lyon's teams are simply too inefficient with ball in hand.

Is that a lack of emphasis on "skill"? Proritising behind-the-ball structures ahead of in-front-of-the-ball positioning? To much stoppage and contested footy and not enough forward craft? Too much fast play compared to slow play possession footy coming out of half-back? Bad luck with injuries or recruiting? Too many role players?

Well ultimately it really doesn't matter too much. What counts is that the AFL is about winning flags and after 13 years he is pretty damn unlikely to do the job. He just can't get his teams to play well enough when they have the ball.
 

darkshines

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Aug 13, 2013
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Like Salim I think the club will honour its contract and Lyon will coach in 2020.

I feel, however and unfortunately, that we may have missed an opportunity to get a bit ruthless, to go back to "2011 mode" and really test the market to see if we are actually doing as well as we can.

Lyon no longer fits the profile of a premiership coach. No coach in over 150 years of VFL/AFL history has won their first premiership after 300 games.

Its going to be one hell of an outlier if he becomes a premiership coach this late in his career.

More specifically, he's been coaching for 13 years at two different clubs with a whole bunch of different players and footy ops support staff and he has only once shown himself able to construct an offense that ranked inside the top half of the league for efficiency: 2014 with us. That year we ranked 9th in the league in terms of disposals needed to generate a score. In every other year, his teams have ranked in the bottom half of the league for the number of disposals needed to generate a score (ie, total season score/total season disposals).

By way of contrast only one premiership team since 2007 has ranked in the bottom half of the league for offensive efficiency: the Bulldogs in 2016. Like I said, one hell of an outlier.

In short, his teams just need too many damn disposals to generate a score. _All_ of his teams regardless of Reiwoldt or Pavlich, or Hogan or even good ol' Tabs. Doesn't matter whether its Milne or Ballas or Walters. Lenny Hayes or Fyfe. Whether its an old team full of role players or a young team full of potential. Under the roof or at Subi or Burswood. Doesn't matter if the assistants were Kirk or Silvagni or Hale or Sumich. Both in winning seasons or in losing seasons Lyon's teams are simply too inefficient with ball in hand.

Is that a lack of emphasis on "skill"? Proritising behind-the-ball structures ahead of in-front-of-the-ball positioning? To much stoppage and contested footy and not enough forward craft? Too much fast play compared to slow play possession footy coming out of half-back? Bad luck with injuries or recruiting? Too many role players?

Well ultimately it really doesn't matter too much. What counts is that the AFL is about winning flags and after 13 years he is pretty damn unlikely to do the job. He just can't get his teams to play well enough when they have the ball.
Possibly the best I've ever seen it put.
 

tacopavlich

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Oct 19, 2010
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Like Salim I think the club will honour its contract and Lyon will coach in 2020.

I feel, however and unfortunately, that we may have missed an opportunity to get a bit ruthless, to go back to "2011 mode" and really test the market to see if we are actually doing as well as we can.

Lyon no longer fits the profile of a premiership coach. No coach in over 150 years of VFL/AFL history has won their first premiership after 300 games.

Its going to be one hell of an outlier if he becomes a premiership coach this late in his career.

More specifically, he's been coaching for 13 years at two different clubs with a whole bunch of different players and footy ops support staff and he has only once shown himself able to construct an offense that ranked inside the top half of the league for efficiency: 2014 with us. That year we ranked 9th in the league in terms of disposals needed to generate a score. In every other year, his teams have ranked in the bottom half of the league for the number of disposals needed to generate a score (ie, total season score/total season disposals).

By way of contrast only one premiership team since 2007 has ranked in the bottom half of the league for offensive efficiency: the Bulldogs in 2016. Like I said, one hell of an outlier.

In short, his teams just need too many damn disposals to generate a score. _All_ of his teams regardless of Reiwoldt or Pavlich, or Hogan or even good ol' Tabs. Doesn't matter whether its Milne or Ballas or Walters. Lenny Hayes or Fyfe. Whether its an old team full of role players or a young team full of potential. Under the roof or at Subi or Burswood. Doesn't matter if the assistants were Kirk or Silvagni or Hale or Sumich. Both in winning seasons or in losing seasons Lyon's teams are simply too inefficient with ball in hand.

Is that a lack of emphasis on "skill"? Proritising behind-the-ball structures ahead of in-front-of-the-ball positioning? To much stoppage and contested footy and not enough forward craft? Too much fast play compared to slow play possession footy coming out of half-back? Bad luck with injuries or recruiting? Too many role players?

Well ultimately it really doesn't matter too much. What counts is that the AFL is about winning flags and after 13 years he is pretty damn unlikely to do the job. He just can't get his teams to play well enough when they have the ball.
Your stat is a self fulfilling prophecy. Coaches rarely last a few years without a premiership simply because most fans and administrations scapegoat the coach because it's just easy to do so. Richmond are an example of a club that bucked the trend and persisted with Hardwick despite enormous pressure externally he wasn't up to it, his team showing pretty much nothing for 8 years until they finally won.

The narrative you paint is a coach that has been in the system for 13 years and has shown nothing, which is objectively false. What we actually have is a person that has made two grand finals with two separate teams, and is only a few years into his first rebuild. I explain this to my friends that don't follow AFL and they are confounded why our fans want to get rid of him so quickly.

a 2011 style coup is likely never going to happen soon. Lyon has weaknesses as a coach, every coach does. Even Geelong fans criticize Chris Scott on their board. Go on West Coasts board before 2018 and there were plenty of bigfooty experts delineating all of Simpsons flaws and how West Coast would go no where under him and the current administration. But until you actually name who else could possibly be available to coach us and do a better job, it's a moot discussion.
 
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nurries

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Your stat is a self fulfilling prophecy. Coaches rarely last a few years without a premiership simply because most fans and administrations scapegoat the coach because it's just easy to do so. Richmond are an example of a club that bucked the trend and persisted with Hardwick despite enormous pressure externally he wasn't up to it, his team showing pretty much nothing for 8 years until they finally won.

The you paint is a coach that has been in the system for 13 years and has shown nothing, which is objectively false. What we actually have is a person that has made two grand finals with two separate teams, and is only a few years into his first rebuild. I explain this to my friends that don't follow AFL and they are confounded why our fans want to get rid of him so quickly.

a 2011 style coup is likely never going to happen soon. Lyon has weaknesses as a coach, every coach does. Even Geelong fans criticize Chris Scott on their board. Go on West Coasts board before 2018 and there were plenty of bigfooty experts delineating all of Simpsons flaws and how West Coast would go no where under him and the current administration. But until you actually name who else could possibly be available to coach us and do a better job, it's a moot discussion.
The difference is Hardwick and Simpson and Scott for that matter were willing to change, to listen to others and not be Martyrs. They surrounded themselves with capable assistants and great football management teams. Ross hasn’t yet done these things and we don’t have those great teams yet. I am not sure whether he would be willing to change at this late stage.
 

PurpleEyes

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Jul 2, 2013
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Like Salim I think the club will honour its contract and Lyon will coach in 2020.

I feel, however and unfortunately, that we may have missed an opportunity to get a bit ruthless, to go back to "2011 mode" and really test the market to see if we are actually doing as well as we can.

Lyon no longer fits the profile of a premiership coach. No coach in over 150 years of VFL/AFL history has won their first premiership after 300 games.

Its going to be one hell of an outlier if he becomes a premiership coach this late in his career.

More specifically, he's been coaching for 13 years at two different clubs with a whole bunch of different players and footy ops support staff and he has only once shown himself able to construct an offense that ranked inside the top half of the league for efficiency: 2014 with us. That year we ranked 9th in the league in terms of disposals needed to generate a score. In every other year, his teams have ranked in the bottom half of the league for the number of disposals needed to generate a score (ie, total season score/total season disposals).

By way of contrast only one premiership team since 2007 has ranked in the bottom half of the league for offensive efficiency: the Bulldogs in 2016. Like I said, one hell of an outlier.

In short, his teams just need too many damn disposals to generate a score. _All_ of his teams regardless of Reiwoldt or Pavlich, or Hogan or even good ol' Tabs. Doesn't matter whether its Milne or Ballas or Walters. Lenny Hayes or Fyfe. Whether its an old team full of role players or a young team full of potential. Under the roof or at Subi or Burswood. Doesn't matter if the assistants were Kirk or Silvagni or Hale or Sumich. Both in winning seasons or in losing seasons Lyon's teams are simply too inefficient with ball in hand.

Is that a lack of emphasis on "skill"? Proritising behind-the-ball structures ahead of in-front-of-the-ball positioning? To much stoppage and contested footy and not enough forward craft? Too much fast play compared to slow play possession footy coming out of half-back? Bad luck with injuries or recruiting? Too many role players?

Well ultimately it really doesn't matter too much. What counts is that the AFL is about winning flags and after 13 years he is pretty damn unlikely to do the job. He just can't get his teams to play well enough when they have the ball.
Sounds like a great story ... if not for the fact that Lyon got within 1 point of winning a premiership.

Also, there has only been a total of 96 games coached by 3 coaches with over 300 games coached with no premierships. Statistically speaking, 0 premierships in 96 games is an expected result. Cherry picking such a small sample data and then presenting it as "going to be one hell of an outlier" shows a complete lack of objectivity and understanding of statistics and probabilities.

"disposals needed to generate a score" ... why does that obscure statistic even matter?
By your own admission, the Western Bulldogs, in as recently as 2016, managed to win a premiership with a poor "disposals per score".
They also had a poor points scored ranking of 12th.
In the last 13 years, the worst ranking of any premier for points against has been 6th, which is stronger evidence and supports an argument that it is more important for a premiership coach to be defensive, not offensive with their game plan.
Nevermind, I believe Freo were ranked 1st (or 2nd) in 2010 for this quite ridiculous disposals per score ranking. We finished 6th on the H&A ladder and lost a Semi Final, while Lyon's St Kilda, "ranked in the bottom half" finished 3rd in the H&A and missed out on a premiership by 1 point.
 
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Johnny Dalmas

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Oct 16, 2015
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...
The you paint is a coach that has been in the system for 13 years and has shown nothing, which is objectively false.
....
Absolute tosh. I never said he has shown nothing. In fact I've said in several bigfooty posts that I think he us a good coach (not great or even very good, but "good").

His appointment in 2011 was categorically the right decision. His performance between 2012-2015 showed him to be the best coach we have had (although that may be a low bar).

But it's 2019 not 2013. Is the club doing everything it can right now to be the best it can? That's the disappointing part of what has happened over the last few years. We were ambitious for 5 minutes but quickly fell back into complacency.
 

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