List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

Is Ross still the man for the job?


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tacopavlich

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The difference is Hardwick and Simpson and Scott for that matter were willing to change, to listen to others and not be Martyrs. They surrounded themselves with capable assistants and great football management teams. Ross hasn’t yet done these things and we don’t have those great teams yet. I am not sure whether he would be willing to change at this late stage.
Hardwick and Simpson certainly were not considered to be surrounded by great football management teams and assistants until "after" they won a flag, it's called outcome bias. The truth is we won't know if Lyon can rebuild a side to win a premiership until he has actually been given a chance to see out a rebuild. Making a deterministic argument based on an obscure stat is beyond unreasonable.
 

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tacopavlich

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But it's 2019 not 2013. Is the club doing everything it can right now to be the best it can? That's the disappointing part of what has happened over the last few years. We were ambitious for 5 minutes but quickly fell back into complacency.
If an amazing coach was available then that would change the discussion, but this isn't actually the scenario or the debate.
 

PurpleReign

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I haven’t read many posts in this thread so hopefully I’m not reapeating something that someone else has already said, but I have noticed something very interesting with RTB. Champion players that he has coached hold him in the highest regard. You only have to listen to how Riewoldt, Montagna and Dal Santo speak about him. Pav once said he was exactly the type of coach he hoped for. Fyfe speaks highly of him. But dud players speak about him with contempt. I don’t know why but I find that interesting.
 

Johnny Dalmas

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Hardwick and Simpson certainly were not considered to be surrounded by great football management teams and assistants until "after" they won a flag, it's called outcome bias. The truth is we won't know if Lyon can rebuild a side to win a premiership until he has actually been given a chance to see out a rebuild. Making a deterministic argument based on an obscure stat is beyond unreasonable.
No we don't, but we will get the chance to see how it all pans out next year: there is little doubt the club will let him, at least, coach out his current contract.
If we have a strong winning season there is every chance he will get renewed: without going through an open selection process.
Although I don't know if he will publicly volunteer to revisit his claim that there will be "no excuses" for not winning a flag by 2020.

BTW: just a heads up. I don't think you know "deterministic" means. You may want to do a bit of research on that word.
 

dockerfemme

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I haven’t read many posts in this thread so hopefully I’m not reapeating something that someone else has already said, but I have noticed something very interesting with RTB. Champion players that he has coached hold him in the highest regard. You only have to listen to how Riewoldt, Montagna and Dal Santo speak about him. Pav once said he was exactly the type of coach he hoped for. Fyfe speaks highly of him. But dud players speak about him with contempt. I don’t know why but I find that interesting.
Who has spoken of him with contempt?
 

Johnny Dalmas

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If an amazing coach was available then that would change the discussion, but this isn't actually the scenario or the debate.
But my post was all about returning to what we did in 2011 when we actively sought out an alternative.

When we first approached Lyon in 2011 we didnt even know he was available for 2012. Our initial contact to him was about taking over in 2013 (because Harvey's last contracted year was 2012).

When you ask questions sometimes you get a surprising answer.
 

Johnny Dalmas

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I haven’t read many posts in this thread so hopefully I’m not reapeating something that someone else has already said, but I have noticed something very interesting with RTB. Champion players that he has coached hold him in the highest regard. You only have to listen to how Riewoldt, Montagna and Dal Santo speak about him. Pav once said he was exactly the type of coach he hoped for. Fyfe speaks highly of him. But dud players speak about him with contempt. I don’t know why but I find that interesting.
I think there is a perception about that he focusses a lot of attention on those players who are playing (or likely to play) senior football right now. But the more junior players on the list who are developing or there for depth only don't get as much attention.

Whether that is true or not. Who knows? Probably no-one here.

As a strategy though it makes some sense. The head coach should focus on those who can impact right now. You can only ever win this week's game this week. There are plenty of development coaches to spend lots of face-to-face time with the more junior players.
 

FreoMonocle

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But it's 2019 not 2013. Is the club doing everything it can right now to be the best it can? That's the disappointing part of what has happened over the last few years. We were ambitious for 5 minutes but quickly fell back into complacency.
Turning over the majority of your list in a short time frame to replenish talent for the next decade isn't complacent, it's a hard nosed thing to do. It's difficult to measure how successful a rebuild is until after it's completed, we view success by the immediate year instead of the journey through several years of hardship that a rebuild is. Until our gun recruits in Brayshaw, Cerra, Logue and Valente etc have enough experience and built their bodies up, playing them is a liability in terms of an objective to win this match and this season (kids don't start out as a star 30+ possession beast, even those with the talent struggle to hit 20 on a good day).

Carlton for example, if it is in a rebuild, is on a different trajectory altogether than Freo. We say that they're rebuilding because they have been crap for a long time. But that isn't a rebuild like Freo embarked upon, they were getting their good draft picks by virtue of their putrescence, not a rebuild by design.

Same with Freo's truly crap years (not counting these last few) where we were just crap, as opposed to what we have been doing. The club accepts that it get's a bloody nose for a few years to get a list that is capable for the next decade (the intention, yet to be seen if that is how it pans out).

We shouldn't have been in the position that we needed to go so drastic - it's 30 players or similar that have been culled, but given that a good player is on your list for 10-12 years (eons in the case of Sandi), but at the end of 2016 we had SFA first round picks on our list, a list mismanagement issue that mostly predated the Steves at that point (first rounders only being up to age 22-23 for the steves tenure, aside from Hill we had no senior first round picks and were just plain lucky that we had Fyfe and Walters quality). As for our recruiting in the Steves tenure, GC and GWS hampered it for a few years and then in our contending window we had poor picks because we were doing well. Without enough talent, we gambled in recruiting and trading, to try and get good players for cheap and it didn't pay off e.g. Simpson, Gumbleton, Bennell, Sylvia, probably add Apeness as a gamble too.
 

Scham

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Your stat is a self fulfilling prophecy. Coaches rarely last a few years without a premiership simply because most fans and administrations scapegoat the coach because it's just easy to do so. Richmond are an example of a club that bucked the trend and persisted with Hardwick despite enormous pressure externally he wasn't up to it, his team showing pretty much nothing for 8 years until they finally won.

The narrative you paint is a coach that has been in the system for 13 years and has shown nothing, which is objectively false. What we actually have is a person that has made two grand finals with two separate teams, and is only a few years into his first rebuild. I explain this to my friends that don't follow AFL and they are confounded why our fans want to get rid of him so quickly.

a 2011 style coup is likely never going to happen soon. Lyon has weaknesses as a coach, every coach does. Even Geelong fans criticize Chris Scott on their board. Go on West Coasts board before 2018 and there were plenty of bigfooty experts delineating all of Simpsons flaws and how West Coast would go no where under him and the current administration. But until you actually name who else could possibly be available to coach us and do a better job, it's a moot discussion.
What’s a moot discussion?

Whether Ross will coach us next year? Yes, I agree that is a moot discussion and that point was made on the first page or two of this thread. Says a lot about Bigfooty that it’s still being discussed 580 odd pages later.

But if you’re referring to the subject of whether Ross is the best person to take us into the future beyond 2020 and ultimately to our first flag, then you’re massively wrong. That debate will continue until he achieves that elusive flag or until the memory of him fades into our history and all of the Ross supporters on here are gone.
 

malpaso

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I like our 'change' or 'rebuild' in the last 3 years. I think we are headed in the right direction albeit let down by some speculative recruiting prior to last off-season and untimely injuries to the wrong personnel.
We have a legit shot at 10 wins this season, hell that's more than I thought at the beginning. But what was important to me was that we didn't get absolutely wiped off the field like in 2017 and 2018 and we haven't bar one game.
Our second half of the season whilst disappointing in terms of wins hasn't be a complete whitewash.
As far as the naysayer's in this thread, where did you actually have us this year if it was so drastically different than it is currently? Must be a huge disparity given the ranting in here.
 

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nurries

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I like our 'change' or 'rebuild' in the last 3 years. I think we are headed in the right direction albeit let down by some speculative recruiting prior to last off-season and untimely injuries to the wrong personnel.
We have a legit shot at 10 wins this season, hell that's more than I thought at the beginning. But what was important to me was that we didn't get absolutely wiped off the field like in 2017 and 2018 and we haven't bar one game.
Our second half of the season whilst disappointing in terms of wins hasn't be a complete whitewash.
As far as the naysayer's in this thread, where did you actually have us this year if it was so drastically different than it is currently? Must be a huge disparity given the ranting in here.
With the players we recruited and looking at the draw I had us 12-13 Wins which we should of had imo
 

BlueE

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The difference is Hardwick and Simpson and Scott for that matter were willing to change, to listen to others and not be Martyrs. They surrounded themselves with capable assistants and great football management teams. Ross hasn’t yet done these things and we don’t have those great teams yet. I am not sure whether he would be willing to change at this late stage.
Even now for 2020 he's surrounded himself with assistants Hale and Rock (and Webb?) and Rosich who overrules Bell.
 

poshman

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I like our 'change' or 'rebuild' in the last 3 years. I think we are headed in the right direction albeit let down by some speculative recruiting prior to last off-season and untimely injuries to the wrong personnel.
We have a legit shot at 10 wins this season, hell that's more than I thought at the beginning. But what was important to me was that we didn't get absolutely wiped off the field like in 2017 and 2018 and we haven't bar one game.
Our second half of the season whilst disappointing in terms of wins hasn't be a complete whitewash.
As far as the naysayer's in this thread, where did you actually have us this year if it was so drastically different than it is currently? Must be a huge disparity given the ranting in here.
This is what I find strange - most people had us winning 8-9 games at best and most footy experts less. A heap on here would have been happy with 9-11 wins which is right where we are at. I am hoping we get our tenth this week. I can't see us beating Port in Adelaide but ten wins, an improved percentage, wins over top teams, injuries to key players (this week 7 of our first 12 selected out) - No one has demonstrated a reasonable argument as to why they are upset other than a vague prediction that they don't think Ross can take us to a flag. Which as an argument is almost impossible to prove or disprove. As far as rebuilds go we have been exceptional up to this point. We should win 12-14 games next year or maybe the expectation should be 11-13? Our list will be younger again with Sandi and Ballas going, we have developed a backline that would be the envy of almost all in the league. Have KPF options and a strong young ruckman, excellent ruck/fwd in place. Our mid is led by one of the best in the game and we are adding pieces around him that will continue to improve. Our midfield is the are of concern. If Brayshaw continues to improve I think he will be at least a solid B+ player with the potential to be an A grader.

We may lose Langdon, although I am not as concerned as he has said he likes to leave his contract until the end of term anyway, and if he does leave we will get something decent in return. Hill would be a big loss, but I don't see how we wouldn't get a high first plus something for him. On top of that, we have the NGA picks coming through. and even if none are out and out stars, Liam Henry projects as he could at least be a skilful B grader, picking those types up for essentially late selections makes a massive difference to a list.

I can't wait to see our progress next year. I am hoping for a 50 plus goal season from Hogan and two other forwards in the 30 plus goal range. And Fyfe for the Brownlow.
 

poshman

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Even now for 2020 he's surrounded himself with assistants Hale and Rock (and Webb?) and Rosich who overrules Bell.
How the hell anyone here would know if Rosich overrules Bell...

In leadership terms, he outranks Bell and is only accountable to the board. If you think that on a daily basis Rosich over-rules Bell you are kidding yourself.

The Hagdorn like muck racking around here is ridiculous.
 

poshman

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Did you invest heavily in the $4.50 being offered for Freo to make the 8 at the start of the season?
Of course, they didn't. Next year when we take another step forward they will be saying we should have been top four and that they expected a prelim. None would put money on that though. Perspective seems to be thrown out the window by so many. And as I have mentioned, I was one of the people criticised for going after Ross and the club for how it dealt with young players in 2013-2015. And early 2016.

Since then though, with a ridiculous list turnover, great trading, solid drafting (hard to mark it yet) and good development we are rebuilding very well.
 

Taylor

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Of course, they didn't. Next year when we take another step forward they will be saying we should have been top four and that they expected a prelim. None would put money on that though. Perspective seems to be thrown out the window by so many. And as I have mentioned, I was one of the people criticised for going after Ross and the club for how it dealt with young players in 2013-2015. And early 2016.

Since then though, with a ridiculous list turnover, great trading, solid drafting (hard to mark it yet) and good development we are rebuilding very well.
Our list average draft pick is #42*, the average of the players unavailable is #29 so not only are we built off very average picks but our missing players are some of our better talent. Carlton is an average pick of #34, both clubs have players averaging 5.3 years in the system.

What I have been most impressed with with this exploration of how our list was built compared to other clubs is just how many of our later picks have become far better players than their pick would suggest. The likes of Walters, Pearce, Ryan, Sandilands, Langdon filling spots in our best twenty two from late picks.

*players taken as pre-draft or otherwise before draft are recorded as pick #9 (mid first), players taken in the rookie draft are selected as default pick #80
 

nurries

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Of course, they didn't. Next year when we take another step forward they will be saying we should have been top four and that they expected a prelim. None would put money on that though. Perspective seems to be thrown out the window by so many. And as I have mentioned, I was one of the people criticised for going after Ross and the club for how it dealt with young players in 2013-2015. And early 2016.

Since then though, with a ridiculous list turnover, great trading, solid drafting (hard to mark it yet) and good development we are rebuilding very well.
Lyon said it himself in March 2016. Nothing else needs to be said. I think a few have forgotten that.

Ross Lyon says he has no excuse not to deliver Fremantle’s first premiership by 2020 — the final year of his latest contract.
His three-year extension announced at the club’s season launch at Perth Convention and Exhibition Centre yesterday morning means Lyon’s tenure as the Dockers’ senior coach will extend to nine seasons.
Due to come out of contract at the end of next season, Lyon said the new deal had settled him and would afford the time needed to deliver a maiden flag.

 

Demons09

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With the players we recruited and looking at the draw I had us 12-13 Wins which we should of had imo
Yes I thought we had a realistic chance at finals with our recruiting in the off season and at the bye looked like a good chance of happening especially with our remaining draw.

Unfortunately injuries have occurred but that doesn’t excuse losing to GC who are a basket case , Carlton when we were 5 goals up with there best player out and key forward early in the game, and the Saint 8 points up with 90 seconds to go.

We win those three games and we play finals so playing finals wasn’t so far fetched if you thought it could happen at the start of the year.
 

Taylor

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Lyon said it himself in March 2016. Nothing else needs to be said. I think a few have forgotten that.

Ross Lyon says he has no excuse not to deliver Fremantle’s first premiership by 2020 — the final year of his latest contract.
His three-year extension announced at the club’s season launch at Perth Convention and Exhibition Centre yesterday morning means Lyon’s tenure as the Dockers’ senior coach will extend to nine seasons.
Due to come out of contract at the end of next season, Lyon said the new deal had settled him and would afford the time needed to deliver a maiden flag.
Which other things he says matter? Because he has been disappointed with the player availability, does that carry equal weight as the above said over three years ago, or only when it validates the preconception?
 

Taylor

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Yes I thought we had a realistic chance at finals with our recruiting in the off season and at the bye looked like a good chance of happening especially with our remaining draw.

Unfortunately injuries have occurred but that doesn’t excuse losing to GC who are a basket case , Carlton when we were 5 goals up with there best player out and key forward early in the game, and the Saint 8 points up with 90 seconds to go.

We win those three games and we play finals so playing finals wasn’t so far fetched if you thought it could happen at the start of the year.
If Blakely played purely defensively in the last minutes of two of those games we are sitting on 11 wins with two rounds to go.
 

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