Ross Lyon: Will He Coach Again?

Who will be the third team to be coached by Ross Lyon?

  • GWS

    Votes: 43 27.7%
  • Melbourne

    Votes: 41 26.5%
  • Ross Lyon will stay in the media

    Votes: 60 38.7%
  • Adelaide

    Votes: 13 8.4%
  • Noth Melbourne

    Votes: 11 7.1%
  • Geelong

    Votes: 4 2.6%

  • Total voters
    155

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Ceehook

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I would say no to Ross being head coach again
he's proven at level , but time away from the position

more likely he would be brought in on a mentoring role or advisory role
 

Richo83

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The issue About Ross Lyon isnt about winning finals, its winning the flag.
They weren't even that great at winning finals.

In 2013, they played Geelong, only for the cats to kick 9.18. They then play Sydney in Perth who was banged up and, if I recall correctly, missing some players. They play a Hawthorn team which is just... better. More attacking, more skillful, more daring, more talented.

In 2014, they finish fourth. They lose to Sydney who lead for the entire game. Then they lose to Port in a game where Port played more daring attacking football.

In 2015, they finish first with a percentage of 118.7%. Their form throughout the year was inconsistent and they knew how to beat teams but not well. They strangled teams to death through organisation and structure but lacked the killer blow. 11th for scores for in the season. They beat Sydney in a low-scoring scrap where Sydney kick 7.18. Then they play a Hawthorn side (in Perth might I add) which, again, more attacking, skillful, daring, talented side, and lose.

This was during a timespan where they won 49 home and away games in three seasons. But two of the three (just three) games were won because the team kicked awfully in front of goal. The only time they did win a final in that stage was against a banged up Sydney. So in summary, between 2013 and 2015, the only time Fremantle won a final was either when the opposition a) kicked badly or b) was injured. Even in 2012, the dockers manage to beat a side which finished sixth.

Saying that, I look at the teams right now, He would most definately suit the demons right now. Have a good 3-4 year run of finals and get a finals win or 2.

Perfect for them to get ross Lyon with that best 22.

Might be too late for Nathan Jones who is 32 years old unless he can around for another 2-3 years.

Max Gawn is only 30 and can easily play until he is 33 or 34 years old.
Hard, hard disagree. Melbourne need a coach who can create a balanced gameplan which uses the strengths of a fairly talented and youngish midfield. There's talent there, it's just that Goodwin doesn't know how to use it (yet? or maybe he's just bad). Lyon would shift the balance towards defense which would lessen the losses but stifle the creativity and development of players like Petracca and they wouldn't develop the ability to win games through attacking football which wins finals. They need a coach which can develop the players they have and build a balance between contested and uncontested, skill and grit, attack and defense. At the moment, they have grit and do get the ball inside 50 a fair bit, but lack polish and class. Lyon would most likely double down on the grit and prevent their development as a balanced team. I'm so against Lyon that I doubt he wins many premierships with any of the premiership sides of the past decade.
 
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Freomaniac

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They weren't even that great at winning finals.

In 2013, they played Geelong, only for the cats to kick 9.18. They then play Sydney in Perth who was banged up and, if I recall correctly, missing some players. They play a Hawthorn team which is just... better. More attacking, more skillful, more daring, more talented.

In 2014, they finish fourth. They lose to Sydney who lead for the entire game. Then they lose to Port in a game where Port played more daring attacking football.

In 2015, they finish first with a percentage of 118.7%. Their form throughout the year was inconsistent and they knew how to beat teams but not well. They strangled teams to death through organisation and structure but lacked the killer blow. 11th for scores for in the season. They beat Sydney in a low-scoring scrap where Sydney kick 7.18. Then they play a Hawthorn side (in Perth might I add) which, again, more attacking, skillful, daring, talented side.
Absoultely agree with your post.

Looking back at freos 2013 season... Geelong kicked 9.18.72. Most days they would of kicked 17.10.112. I also agreed Sydney were banged up and had injuries. Martin Mattner retired mid season with back/hip injuries. Craig Bolton, Lewis Roberts Thompson, Adam Goodes and Kurt Tippet didnt play either. I didnt care though. If Freo didnt make the grand final with the situation they had, they never would of. Hawks then beat freo 11.11.77 to Freo 8.14.62. Hawks didnt play too well that day. on a typical day, they would of kicked 15.7.97 or 14.8.92 on a good day with 22 scoring shots.

2014, finish 4th only because of that Narrow win vs Port in Perth in the final round. Lost to the swans. Lost to Port in that semi final due to Horrible goal kicking in the 1st half of 6.11.47. Port played attacking footy in the 2nd half and were also fitter too.

2015 season was interesting. Started the 1st half of the season well going 9-0. Yeah that % of 118.7% Proved that freo were not doninant. They knew how to beat teams but it was more about out lasting some sides. Narrowly out lasted the swans as you said due to the swans spraying shots.

Hawks beat us in that 2015 Prelim not just because they were attacking like Port in that 2014 semi but Hawks kicked 15.4.94 that night.




Funny thing is That Freo 2015 side was Scarily Similar to Geelongs 2014 and 2019 teams.

Geelongs 2014 side on the Surface looked good. 17 wins 5 losses and 113.8%. But that side won 7 games by 12 points or less. They lost 2 finals and were bundled out in the semi finals.

Geelongs 2019 team started well. 9-1 after 10 games. the only loss in the 1st 10 games was a 4 point loss to GWS. They then started losing games in the 2nd half of the season. Finished top with 16 wins 6 losses and 135.7%. Yet were not favourites for the flag coming into that 2019 finals series.

Cats lost to Magpies by 10 points, won the semi vs West coast by 20 points then lost the prelim vs Richmond by 19 points.
 

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Richo83

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Funny thing is That Freo 2015 side was Scarily Similar to Geelongs 2014 and 2019 teams.

Geelongs 2014 side on the Surface looked good. 17 wins 5 losses and 113.8%. But that side won 7 games by 12 points or less. They lost 2 finals and were bundled out in the semi finals.

Geelongs 2019 team started well. 9-1 after 10 games. the only loss in the 1st 10 games was a 4 point loss to GWS. They then started losing games in the 2nd half of the season. Finished top with 16 wins 6 losses and 135.7%. Yet were not favourites for the flag coming into that 2019 finals series.

Cats lost to Magpies by 10 points, won the semi vs West coast by 20 points then lost the prelim vs Richmond by 19 points.
Wouldn't be surprised if Scott goes the way of Lyon to be honest. If he doesn't win a flag in the next few years, his team will be too old to compete and probably out of a premiership window. Their under 25 players in the grand final were O'Connor, Henry, Parfitt, Miers and Simpson. Not that flash. Which means it'll be a decade since he won his first and only flag, and does he have a rebuild in him? I also have queries about Geelong winning finals as Scott's record isn't great. I wonder why it's so bad though. With Lyon I get, but Scott's Geelong? They should have beaten Port last year and that's just the start.
 

Freomaniac

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Wouldn't be surprised if Scott goes the way of Lyon to be honest. If he doesn't win a flag in the next few years, his team will be too old to compete and probably out of a premiership window. Their under 25 players in the grand final were O'Connor, Henry, Parfitt, Miers and Simpson. Not that flash. Which means it'll be a decade since he won his first and only flag, and does he have a rebuild in him? I also have queries about Geelong winning finals as Scott's record isn't great. I wonder why it's so bad though. With Lyon I get, but Scott's Geelong? They should have beaten Port last year and that's just the start.
Take away Geelongs 2011 flag then Chris Scotts record would be as bad as Ross Lyon. Yep he would have no flags as well.

But on the other hand.... Geelong could of easily won 2 if not 3 possible flags between 2012-19. 2013 they could of won if not for that narrow prelim final loss to the hawks.

2016 they blew. I dont know how they played so bad in that prelim vs the swans at the mcg that night. That cats team would of easily beaten the dogs in the 2016 Grand final had they made it. 2019, they lost Narrowly to Richmond in that prelim too. Cats could of easily beaten a worn down and injury riddled GWS in that 2019 grand final.

Then you got the 2020 grand final. Lead at half time and were still down by a point at 3 quarter time but could not finish off the tigers.
 

Optimistic Dog

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Take away Geelongs 2011 flag then Chris Scotts record would be as bad as Ross Lyon. Yep he would have no flags as well.

But on the other hand.... Geelong could of easily won 2 if not 3 possible flags between 2012-19. 2013 they could of won if not for that narrow prelim final loss to the hawks.

2016 they blew. I dont know how they played so bad in that prelim vs the swans at the mcg that night. That cats team would of easily beaten the dogs in the 2016 Grand final had they made it. 2019, they lost Narrowly to Richmond in that prelim too. Cats could of easily beaten a worn down and injury riddled GWS in that 2019 grand final.

Then you got the 2020 grand final. Lead at half time and were still down by a point at 3 quarter time but could not finish off the tigers.
That cats team would of easily beaten the dogs in the 2016 Grand final had they made it. How can you say that they got smashed by the swans and dogs were good enough to beat WCE in perth, the hawks, GWS in Sydney and the Swans in the GF. Clearly the best team in the finals. The cats only beat the Hawks because Smith missed a kick after the siren in the qualifying final. Some supporters opinions amaze me.
 

Frigate

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The elusive premiership makes a coach or breaks them. There is no doubt in my mind that if Lyon could have his players on the park it would have been a different story, and he probably over achieved with the list he had (given the injuries).

It still amazes me that some teams can play in completely dull games, and they escape criticism, but Lyon just copped it. In 2014 Freo had the 3rd highest points for and finished at the low end of the 8. So saying Lyon's brand was just defense is wrong. When he had the players he was quite aggressive in counter attack play, and if anything Richmond adopted this style, just with a much better list.

Simpson was going to get fired before he went on to win the flag. How Buckley has held a job for so long is anyone's guess. And Sydney Swans have always played a dire brand.

Lyon was a very good coach, and us on the sidelines can come up with arguments that point to "the brand of footy", but look at North Melbourne now, they are forced into a brand because their list is sh*te. Gold Coast for most of the season.
Anyway, I for one enjoyed the era under Ross, and I believe the time was right for him to move on and I am enjoying our new list and Longmuir taking the reigns. Ross had incredible relationships with the players, and reinvented players like Walters, Pearce, Dawson (people may not rate him, but he was a great role player) and even Pavlich and Fyfe. For any that read Pavlich's book, he stated he was head and shoulders the best coach he ever had.

So can he coach again...he could easily be a top coach if you compare any coach with a similar list. The problem is, he would most likely have to take a dud list and rebuild.

There are not many clubs that are unhappy (mistake earlier - I said happy, where the norm is unhappy...my bad!) with their coaches. Ken Hinkley included. That is my 2 cents!
 
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estibador

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So in summary, between 2013 and 2015, the only time Fremantle won a final was either when the opposition a) kicked badly or b) was injured.
Well when the Cats kicked 9.18 we kicked 12.15, so matched them for scoring shots anyway.

But if you're going to add those disclaimers to our wins you have to do us the courtesy of the same for our losses.

We were the inaccurate ones in the 2013 GF with 1.6 at HT and 8.14 at FT - the same amount of scoring shots as Hawthorn.

In the 2014 semi we dominated the first half but were sitting on 6.11 at HT. 17 scoring shots to Port's 8. We finished with 11.17 and though they outplayed us in the 2nd half the game really should have been beyond their reach at HT if we'd been accurate.

In the 2016 prelim we were pretty banged up and limping home in the second half of the season. McPharlin and Duffield missing with injuries were big blows to our backline and Fyfe was playing with a broken fibula. And then Hawthorn were freakishly accurate kicking 15.4.

Our finals record is what it is over that period, but it's disingenuous to try discredit our wins because of inaccuracy and injury while not applying the same reasoning to our losses.
 

Freomaniac

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That cats team would of easily beaten the dogs in the 2016 Grand final had they made it. How can you say that they got smashed by the swans and dogs were good enough to beat WCE in perth, the hawks, GWS in Sydney and the Swans in the GF. Clearly the best team in the finals. The cats only beat the Hawks because Smith missed a kick after the siren in the qualifying final. Some supporters opinions amaze me.
I like your username.

I am not saying I am right or Wrong. Just showing my opinion.

Yes the Cats only made the Prelim final due to Isaac Smith missing a set shot on goal after the siren.

You also forget the amount of close games the hawks won in 2016 that got them into top 4 as well.Hawks in rounds 3, 4 and 5 beat the Dogs, Saints and Crows by 3 points each. Still remember that crows game too. Crows were up by 15 points with 3 minutes left and slipped that win past their fingers.

Cats beat the Bulldogs twice in 2016. Cats won by 57 points in Docklands in Round 13 and 25 points in round 19 at geelong. Not to mention the Cats were undefeated vs the dogs from 2010-16.

I am not saying Cats were dead certain to beat your team in the 2016 grand final. Cat would of been confident on the day though.


Well when the Cats kicked 9.18 we kicked 12.15, so matched them for scoring shots anyway.

But if you're going to add those disclaimers to our wins you have to do us the courtesy of the same for our losses.

We were the inaccurate ones in the 2013 GF with 1.6 at HT and 8.14 at FT - the same amount of scoring shots as Hawthorn.

In the 2014 semi we dominated the first half but were sitting on 6.11 at HT. 17 scoring shots to Port's 8. We finished with 11.17 and though they outplayed us in the 2nd half the game really should have been beyond their reach at HT if we'd been accurate.

In the 2015 prelim we were pretty banged up and limping home in the second half of the season. McPharlin and Duffield missing with injuries were big blows to our backline and Fyfe was playing with a broken fibula. And then Hawthorn were freakishly accurate kicking 15.4.

Our finals record is what it is over that period, but it's disingenuous to try discredit our wins because of inaccuracy and injury while not applying the same reasoning to our losses.
Sounds about right.

Freo had Depth in the Backline and Midfield but not up forward. Dawson, McPharlin and Johnson were all solid Tall defenders. We could lose one with an injury for a match or 2 and that could be covered to a degree.

That Inside mid depth of Fyfe, Mundy, Barlow, Neale, Crowley and De Boer was solid. Fyfe could be tagged yet Someone like Neale could be best on ground in a derby getting 3 goals and 35 disposals which was awesome stats.

Ruck Depth was insane: Sandilands, Jonothan Griffin, Zac Clarke and Jack Hannath. Would love a 24-27 year old Jono Griffin as a 2nd ruck backing up Sean Darcy right now! Jono Griffin wasnt an elite ruck by any stretch but the Freo board loved him as he tried his guts out.

KPF depth was the weakness. Almost nothing barring an ageing Matty Pavlich.
 

Richo83

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Well when the Cats kicked 9.18 we kicked 12.15, so matched them for scoring shots anyway.
They still kicked themselves out of it with terrible shots at goal, in Geelong as well which is weird because they usually know how to kick well there. Simply put, a side kicked 9.18; how many times will Geelong kick 9.18 in Geelong?

But if you're going to add those disclaimers to our wins you have to do us the courtesy of the same for our losses.

We were the inaccurate ones in the 2013 GF with 1.6 at HT and 8.14 at FT - the same amount of scoring shots as Hawthorn.
Sure, but that's one loss and when you're a side which generates low amounts of scoring opportunities, every miss hurts. Hawthorn played badly that day (their best player was, officially, their key defender) and they still won.

Also, kicking 8.14 is bad. Kicking 9.18 and seven and eighteen is worse. In both those two instances, the opposition won the inside 50 count but lost due to poor conversion infront of goal.

In the 2014 semi we dominated the first half but were sitting on 6.11 at HT. 17 scoring shots to Port's 8. We finished with 11.17 and though they outplayed us in the 2nd half the game really should have been beyond their reach at HT if we'd been accurate.
If you're arguing that many of Port's finals wins of the past decade need asterisks beside them, then go ahead. Even this season where they finished first I didn't think they were real.

In the 2016 prelim we were pretty banged up and limping home in the second half of the season. McPharlin and Duffield missing with injuries were big blows to our backline and Fyfe was playing with a broken fibula. And then Hawthorn were freakishly accurate kicking 15.4.
Hawthorn kicked accurately because it generated a lot of scores close to goal, and this was a highly accurate kicking side anyway. And it's not like Fremantle kicked themselves out of it; they were 8.4 at three quarter time. Fremantle just found generating easy scores harder than Hawthorn who were particularly adept at pouncing on docker backline errors.
 

Richo83

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Opposition kicking badly? I am pretty sure quite a few games of football are decided by kicking good or bad.

And injuries are a a factor as well in most cases.
Sure, but a great coach who, say deserves his third shot at being a coach shouldn't have to rely on those two factors to win finals. Look at any premiership coach, they have plenty of finals wins built on the merit of their side. Lyon wasn't able to just build a team which won finals regularly by being the best, and that's a problem given his home and away record. Says that finals was a different beast and his overly defensive style didn't work when teams are more quality in terms of attacking and know how to defend better.
 

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Richo83

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Ross Lyon sides have only kicked 100 points in a final once (semi-final against the pies in 2008). By comparison:

Clarkson has done it 12 times
Hardwick has done it 4 times
Scott has done it 3 times
Longmire has done it 3 times
Hinkley has done it 2 times
Simpson has done it 2 times
Cameron has done it 2 times

Among coaches who have coached 20 finals or more, the only coaches who have a worse winning percentage are: Jock McHale (won seven flags though), Chris Scott (who has been criticised for not being able to win finals) and Phonse Kyne, another Collingwood coach who lost a lot of grand finals (still won two flags though). Only one other coach among that group who hasn't won a flag: John Northey.

in summary, Lyon's finals record is bad, Clarkson is an all-time great, and Collingwood have lost a lot of grand finals.
 

00Stinger

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you would think Melbourne or GWS would be the obvious choices in the next 12 months.

He is only going to a team that has a strong looking list that he can have a tilt at a premiership

But once he has ben out of the game for 24+ months he is cooked I reckon
 

Freomaniac

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The elusive premiership makes a coach or breaks them. There is no doubt in my mind that if Lyon could have his players on the park it would have been a different story, and he probably over achieved with the list he had (given the injuries).

It still amazes me that some teams can play in completely dull games, and they escape criticism, but Lyon just copped it. In 2014 Freo had the 3rd highest points for and finished at the low end of the 8. So saying Lyon's brand was just defense is wrong. When he had the players he was quite aggressive in counter attack play, and if anything Richmond adopted this style, just with a much better list.

Simpson was going to get fired before he went on to win the flag. How Buckley has held a job for so long is anyone's guess. And Sydney Swans have always played a dire brand.

Lyon was a very good coach, and us on the sidelines can come up with arguments that point to "the brand of footy", but look at North Melbourne now, they are forced into a brand because their list is sh*te. Gold Coast for most of the season.
Anyway, I for one enjoyed the era under Ross, and I believe the time was right for him to move on and I am enjoying our new list and Longmuir taking the reigns.
Ross had incredible relationships with the players, and reinvented players like Walters, Pearce, Dawson (people may not rate him, but he was a great role player) and even Pavlich and Fyfe. For any that read Pavlich's book, he stated he was head and shoulders the best coach he ever had.

So can he coach again...he could easily be a top coach if you compare any coach with a similar list. The problem is, he would most likely have to take a dud list and rebuild.

There are not many clubs that are unhappy (mistake earlier - I said happy, where the norm is unhappy...my bad!) with their coaches. Ken Hinkley included. That is my 2 cents!
Solid post.

As for the bolded and underlined bits I highlighted......

Yep People Bag out Ross Lyon playing defensive footy in 2012-19 at freo. But you look recently, expecially the last 4-5 years.

AFL "Experts" brought up this stupid stat that you had to average 100 points a game in Attack to win a flag. That theory has been thrown out the window.

Dogs in 2016 averaged 84 points in attack and 72 in Defence per game in the regualr season

Richmond in 2017 averaged 90.5 points in attack and 76.5 points in Defence

Eagles in 2018 averaged 91 points in attack and 75 points in defence

Richmond in 2019 averaged 86 points in attack and 73 in defence

Richmond in 2020 averaged 66 points in attack and 51 points in defence.


I also agree with bottom 6 sides going full defensive because they cannot go toe to toe with the top 4 clubs in attack or else they will be beaten. Look at the swans and hawks. Both teams were regular contenders from 2011-16. In 2020, they struggle to kick 3-5 goals.

I also agree with your view on Ross Lyon. I enjoyed that era under Ross Lyon from 2012-19, especially that finals period of 2012-15. But he ran his course. Him leaving in 2019 was about the right year to leave. But the main thing was we stuck to that rebuild in those 2016-19 years.

I enjoyed Ross Lyon playing the younger players in that rebuild. I have very few regrets about that 2016-19 rebuild. Yes Ross Lyon was sacked at the end of 2019. But main thing is Justin Longmuir has a semi decent and young list to work with, Thanks partially to Ross Lyon playing youth in that 2016-19 period.
 

Freomaniac

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Ross Lyon sides have only kicked 100 points in a final once (semi-final against the pies in 2008). By comparison:

Clarkson has done it 12 times
Hardwick has done it 4 times
Scott has done it 3 times
Longmire has done it 3 times
Hinkley has done it 2 times
Simpson has done it 2 times
Cameron has done it 2 times

Among coaches who have coached 20 finals or more, the only coaches who have a worse winning percentage are: Jock McHale (won seven flags though), Chris Scott (who has been criticised for not being able to win finals) and Phonse Kyne, another Collingwood coach who lost a lot of grand finals (still won two flags though). Only one other coach among that group who hasn't won a flag: John Northey.

in summary, Lyon's finals record is bad, Clarkson is an all-time great, and Collingwood have lost a lot of grand finals.
Did your team score 100 points in that 2020 grand final vs Geelong?

Go look at the grand finals since 2000 and how many of them had the winner kicking 100 points to win the flag.

Brisbane 2002

Swans 2005

Eagles 2006

Geelong 2009

Swans 2012

hawks 2013

Dogs 2016

Eagles 2018

Tigers 2020

9 teams since 2000
 

Freomaniac

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you would think Melbourne or GWS would be the obvious choices in the next 12 months.

He is only going to a team that has a strong looking list that he can have a tilt at a premiership

But once he has ben out of the game for 24+ months he is cooked I reckon
as a demon's fan, would you want Ross Lyon to coach your team for 5-6 years if it means you go through a 3-4 years of finals and getting the occasional finals win or 2? Or even get a preliminary final or 2 as well?
 

00Stinger

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as a demon's fan, would you want Ross Lyon to coach your team for 5-6 years if it means you go through a 3-4 years of finals and getting the occasional finals win or 2? Or even get a preliminary final or 2 as well?
Considering we have played finals once in 14 years that doesn't seem too bad

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Richo83

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Solid post.

As for the bolded and underlined bits I highlighted......

Yep People Bag out Ross Lyon playing defensive footy in 2012-19 at freo. But you look recently, expecially the last 4-5 years.

AFL "Experts" brought up this stupid stat that you had to average 100 points a game in Attack to win a flag. That theory has been thrown out the window.

Dogs in 2016 averaged 84 points in attack and 72 in Defence per game in the regualr season

Richmond in 2017 averaged 90.5 points in attack and 76.5 points in Defence

Eagles in 2018 averaged 91 points in attack and 75 points in defence

Richmond in 2019 averaged 86 points in attack and 73 in defence

Richmond in 2020 averaged 66 points in attack and 51 points in defence.

Fremantle was 15th for inside 50s per game in 2013, Richmond was 3rd for inside 50s per game in 2017 and just glancing at the inside 50 numbers per team for 2019 and 2020, at least in the top four for those years. Just looking at scores is misleading.
 

Richo83

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Did your team score 100 points in that 2020 grand final vs Geelong?
They were on track to kick 101 points if they played full minutes, so in a way, yes. The other two grand finals, Richmond scored 100 points.

And yes, not all grand finals result in a team scoring 100 points. It's why I also talked about finals in general. My point is attacking sides win more games of football as they generate more chances to win and back their defence to be able to stand up when they need to. Lyon protects his defence by playing... defensively, which means his forwardline doesn't get enough of the ball to win finals where it's harder to score.
 

Freomaniac

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Considering we have played finals once in 14 years that doesn't seem too bad

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well at least you are honest.

Yeah Nathan Jones is 32 years old and he only has played finals in 2006 and 2018. Again, could of played finals in 2017 and 2020 even if it was a couple of Elim final matches.

Max Gawn is only 30 years old and he could easily play until he is 34 or 35 years old playing for a Vic club means less travel.

Looking at the demons side it's a mid table side. Age wise it's moderate.

Clarkson could easily get this team into a preliminary final. Ross Lyon would get finals with this side even if they play dour footy.
 

Freomaniac

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Fremantle was 15th for inside 50s per game in 2013, Richmond was 3rd for inside 50s per game in 2017 and just glancing at the inside 50 numbers per team for 2019 and 2020, at least in the top four for those years. Just looking at scores is misleading.
I don't think looking at The scores is misleading to be honest.


May I remind you Freo averaged 93 points a game in attack during the regular season back in 2013. 10 times out of 22 they scored 100 points or more and scored 99 points another game.

So to say that Freo in 2013 was kicking 80 points a game is misleading too.

As I said..... Look at the 2 grand final sides in 2017.

Crows average 110 points in attack and 80 points in defence.

Richmond averaged 90.5 points in attack, 76.5 points in defence.

Does that mean that 2017 side is as defensive bas your typical Ross Lyon team?

Richmond won the 2017 grand final 16.12.108 to 8.12.60.

You can average 13.10.88 a game in attack. 88 points a game in attack might not be much in isolation. Some teams can have shockers and kick 5.10.40 one week then kick 20.10.130 the next week.
 

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