They weren't even that great at winning finals.The issue About Ross Lyon isnt about winning finals, its winning the flag.
Hard, hard disagree. Melbourne need a coach who can create a balanced gameplan which uses the strengths of a fairly talented and youngish midfield. There's talent there, it's just that Goodwin doesn't know how to use it (yet? or maybe he's just bad). Lyon would shift the balance towards defense which would lessen the losses but stifle the creativity and development of players like Petracca and they wouldn't develop the ability to win games through attacking football which wins finals. They need a coach which can develop the players they have and build a balance between contested and uncontested, skill and grit, attack and defense. At the moment, they have grit and do get the ball inside 50 a fair bit, but lack polish and class. Lyon would most likely double down on the grit and prevent their development as a balanced team. I'm so against Lyon that I doubt he wins many premierships with any of the premiership sides of the past decade.Saying that, I look at the teams right now, He would most definately suit the demons right now. Have a good 3-4 year run of finals and get a finals win or 2.
Perfect for them to get ross Lyon with that best 22.
Might be too late for Nathan Jones who is 32 years old unless he can around for another 2-3 years.
Max Gawn is only 30 and can easily play until he is 33 or 34 years old.
Absoultely agree with your post.They weren't even that great at winning finals.
In 2013, they played Geelong, only for the cats to kick 9.18. They then play Sydney in Perth who was banged up and, if I recall correctly, missing some players. They play a Hawthorn team which is just... better. More attacking, more skillful, more daring, more talented.
In 2014, they finish fourth. They lose to Sydney who lead for the entire game. Then they lose to Port in a game where Port played more daring attacking football.
In 2015, they finish first with a percentage of 118.7%. Their form throughout the year was inconsistent and they knew how to beat teams but not well. They strangled teams to death through organisation and structure but lacked the killer blow. 11th for scores for in the season. They beat Sydney in a low-scoring scrap where Sydney kick 7.18. Then they play a Hawthorn side (in Perth might I add) which, again, more attacking, skillful, daring, talented side.
Wouldn't be surprised if Scott goes the way of Lyon to be honest. If he doesn't win a flag in the next few years, his team will be too old to compete and probably out of a premiership window. Their under 25 players in the grand final were O'Connor, Henry, Parfitt, Miers and Simpson. Not that flash. Which means it'll be a decade since he won his first and only flag, and does he have a rebuild in him? I also have queries about Geelong winning finals as Scott's record isn't great. I wonder why it's so bad though. With Lyon I get, but Scott's Geelong? They should have beaten Port last year and that's just the start.Funny thing is That Freo 2015 side was Scarily Similar to Geelongs 2014 and 2019 teams.
Geelongs 2014 side on the Surface looked good. 17 wins 5 losses and 113.8%. But that side won 7 games by 12 points or less. They lost 2 finals and were bundled out in the semi finals.
Geelongs 2019 team started well. 9-1 after 10 games. the only loss in the 1st 10 games was a 4 point loss to GWS. They then started losing games in the 2nd half of the season. Finished top with 16 wins 6 losses and 135.7%. Yet were not favourites for the flag coming into that 2019 finals series.
Cats lost to Magpies by 10 points, won the semi vs West coast by 20 points then lost the prelim vs Richmond by 19 points.
Take away Geelongs 2011 flag then Chris Scotts record would be as bad as Ross Lyon. Yep he would have no flags as well.Wouldn't be surprised if Scott goes the way of Lyon to be honest. If he doesn't win a flag in the next few years, his team will be too old to compete and probably out of a premiership window. Their under 25 players in the grand final were O'Connor, Henry, Parfitt, Miers and Simpson. Not that flash. Which means it'll be a decade since he won his first and only flag, and does he have a rebuild in him? I also have queries about Geelong winning finals as Scott's record isn't great. I wonder why it's so bad though. With Lyon I get, but Scott's Geelong? They should have beaten Port last year and that's just the start.
That cats team would of easily beaten the dogs in the 2016 Grand final had they made it. How can you say that they got smashed by the swans and dogs were good enough to beat WCE in perth, the hawks, GWS in Sydney and the Swans in the GF. Clearly the best team in the finals. The cats only beat the Hawks because Smith missed a kick after the siren in the qualifying final. Some supporters opinions amaze me.Take away Geelongs 2011 flag then Chris Scotts record would be as bad as Ross Lyon. Yep he would have no flags as well.
But on the other hand.... Geelong could of easily won 2 if not 3 possible flags between 2012-19. 2013 they could of won if not for that narrow prelim final loss to the hawks.
2016 they blew. I dont know how they played so bad in that prelim vs the swans at the mcg that night. That cats team would of easily beaten the dogs in the 2016 Grand final had they made it. 2019, they lost Narrowly to Richmond in that prelim too. Cats could of easily beaten a worn down and injury riddled GWS in that 2019 grand final.
Then you got the 2020 grand final. Lead at half time and were still down by a point at 3 quarter time but could not finish off the tigers.
Well when the Cats kicked 9.18 we kicked 12.15, so matched them for scoring shots anyway.So in summary, between 2013 and 2015, the only time Fremantle won a final was either when the opposition a) kicked badly or b) was injured.
I like your username.That cats team would of easily beaten the dogs in the 2016 Grand final had they made it. How can you say that they got smashed by the swans and dogs were good enough to beat WCE in perth, the hawks, GWS in Sydney and the Swans in the GF. Clearly the best team in the finals. The cats only beat the Hawks because Smith missed a kick after the siren in the qualifying final. Some supporters opinions amaze me.
Sounds about right.Well when the Cats kicked 9.18 we kicked 12.15, so matched them for scoring shots anyway.
But if you're going to add those disclaimers to our wins you have to do us the courtesy of the same for our losses.
We were the inaccurate ones in the 2013 GF with 1.6 at HT and 8.14 at FT - the same amount of scoring shots as Hawthorn.
In the 2014 semi we dominated the first half but were sitting on 6.11 at HT. 17 scoring shots to Port's 8. We finished with 11.17 and though they outplayed us in the 2nd half the game really should have been beyond their reach at HT if we'd been accurate.
In the 2015 prelim we were pretty banged up and limping home in the second half of the season. McPharlin and Duffield missing with injuries were big blows to our backline and Fyfe was playing with a broken fibula. And then Hawthorn were freakishly accurate kicking 15.4.
Our finals record is what it is over that period, but it's disingenuous to try discredit our wins because of inaccuracy and injury while not applying the same reasoning to our losses.
Opposition kicking badly? I am pretty sure quite a few games of football are decided by kicking good or bad.So in summary, between 2013 and 2015, the only time Fremantle won a final was either when the opposition a) kicked badly or b) was injured.
IKR ! What a ridiculous summary.Opposition kicking badly? I am pretty sure quite a few games of football are decided by kicking good or bad.
And injuries are a a factor as well in most cases.
They still kicked themselves out of it with terrible shots at goal, in Geelong as well which is weird because they usually know how to kick well there. Simply put, a side kicked 9.18; how many times will Geelong kick 9.18 in Geelong?Well when the Cats kicked 9.18 we kicked 12.15, so matched them for scoring shots anyway.
Sure, but that's one loss and when you're a side which generates low amounts of scoring opportunities, every miss hurts. Hawthorn played badly that day (their best player was, officially, their key defender) and they still won.But if you're going to add those disclaimers to our wins you have to do us the courtesy of the same for our losses.
We were the inaccurate ones in the 2013 GF with 1.6 at HT and 8.14 at FT - the same amount of scoring shots as Hawthorn.
If you're arguing that many of Port's finals wins of the past decade need asterisks beside them, then go ahead. Even this season where they finished first I didn't think they were real.In the 2014 semi we dominated the first half but were sitting on 6.11 at HT. 17 scoring shots to Port's 8. We finished with 11.17 and though they outplayed us in the 2nd half the game really should have been beyond their reach at HT if we'd been accurate.
Hawthorn kicked accurately because it generated a lot of scores close to goal, and this was a highly accurate kicking side anyway. And it's not like Fremantle kicked themselves out of it; they were 8.4 at three quarter time. Fremantle just found generating easy scores harder than Hawthorn who were particularly adept at pouncing on docker backline errors.In the 2016 prelim we were pretty banged up and limping home in the second half of the season. McPharlin and Duffield missing with injuries were big blows to our backline and Fyfe was playing with a broken fibula. And then Hawthorn were freakishly accurate kicking 15.4.
Sure, but a great coach who, say deserves his third shot at being a coach shouldn't have to rely on those two factors to win finals. Look at any premiership coach, they have plenty of finals wins built on the merit of their side. Lyon wasn't able to just build a team which won finals regularly by being the best, and that's a problem given his home and away record. Says that finals was a different beast and his overly defensive style didn't work when teams are more quality in terms of attacking and know how to defend better.Opposition kicking badly? I am pretty sure quite a few games of football are decided by kicking good or bad.
And injuries are a a factor as well in most cases.
No current season stats available
Solid post.The elusive premiership makes a coach or breaks them. There is no doubt in my mind that if Lyon could have his players on the park it would have been a different story, and he probably over achieved with the list he had (given the injuries).
It still amazes me that some teams can play in completely dull games, and they escape criticism, but Lyon just copped it. In 2014 Freo had the 3rd highest points for and finished at the low end of the 8. So saying Lyon's brand was just defense is wrong. When he had the players he was quite aggressive in counter attack play, and if anything Richmond adopted this style, just with a much better list.
Simpson was going to get fired before he went on to win the flag. How Buckley has held a job for so long is anyone's guess. And Sydney Swans have always played a dire brand.
Lyon was a very good coach, and us on the sidelines can come up with arguments that point to "the brand of footy", but look at North Melbourne now, they are forced into a brand because their list is sh*te. Gold Coast for most of the season.
Anyway, I for one enjoyed the era under Ross, and I believe the time was right for him to move on and I am enjoying our new list and Longmuir taking the reigns. Ross had incredible relationships with the players, and reinvented players like Walters, Pearce, Dawson (people may not rate him, but he was a great role player) and even Pavlich and Fyfe. For any that read Pavlich's book, he stated he was head and shoulders the best coach he ever had.
So can he coach again...he could easily be a top coach if you compare any coach with a similar list. The problem is, he would most likely have to take a dud list and rebuild.
There are not many clubs that are unhappy (mistake earlier - I said happy, where the norm is unhappy...my bad!) with their coaches. Ken Hinkley included. That is my 2 cents!
Did your team score 100 points in that 2020 grand final vs Geelong?Ross Lyon sides have only kicked 100 points in a final once (semi-final against the pies in 2008). By comparison:
Clarkson has done it 12 times
Hardwick has done it 4 times
Scott has done it 3 times
Longmire has done it 3 times
Hinkley has done it 2 times
Simpson has done it 2 times
Cameron has done it 2 times
Among coaches who have coached 20 finals or more, the only coaches who have a worse winning percentage are: Jock McHale (won seven flags though), Chris Scott (who has been criticised for not being able to win finals) and Phonse Kyne, another Collingwood coach who lost a lot of grand finals (still won two flags though). Only one other coach among that group who hasn't won a flag: John Northey.
in summary, Lyon's finals record is bad, Clarkson is an all-time great, and Collingwood have lost a lot of grand finals.
as a demon's fan, would you want Ross Lyon to coach your team for 5-6 years if it means you go through a 3-4 years of finals and getting the occasional finals win or 2? Or even get a preliminary final or 2 as well?you would think Melbourne or GWS would be the obvious choices in the next 12 months.
He is only going to a team that has a strong looking list that he can have a tilt at a premiership
But once he has ben out of the game for 24+ months he is cooked I reckon
you fear that Ross Lyon will come back and bite your team on the Bum.... er I mean Kim Kardashian? lolPlease no.
I promise to be good...
Considering we have played finals once in 14 years that doesn't seem too badas a demon's fan, would you want Ross Lyon to coach your team for 5-6 years if it means you go through a 3-4 years of finals and getting the occasional finals win or 2? Or even get a preliminary final or 2 as well?
Solid post.
As for the bolded and underlined bits I highlighted......
Yep People Bag out Ross Lyon playing defensive footy in 2012-19 at freo. But you look recently, expecially the last 4-5 years.
AFL "Experts" brought up this stupid stat that you had to average 100 points a game in Attack to win a flag. That theory has been thrown out the window.
Dogs in 2016 averaged 84 points in attack and 72 in Defence per game in the regualr season
Richmond in 2017 averaged 90.5 points in attack and 76.5 points in Defence
Eagles in 2018 averaged 91 points in attack and 75 points in defence
Richmond in 2019 averaged 86 points in attack and 73 in defence
Richmond in 2020 averaged 66 points in attack and 51 points in defence.
They were on track to kick 101 points if they played full minutes, so in a way, yes. The other two grand finals, Richmond scored 100 points.Did your team score 100 points in that 2020 grand final vs Geelong?
well at least you are honest.Considering we have played finals once in 14 years that doesn't seem too bad
Sent from my SM-G981B using Tapatalk
I don't think looking at The scores is misleading to be honest.Fremantle was 15th for inside 50s per game in 2013, Richmond was 3rd for inside 50s per game in 2017 and just glancing at the inside 50 numbers per team for 2019 and 2020, at least in the top four for those years. Just looking at scores is misleading.