Ross Lyon: Will He Coach Again?

[Freomaniac]

They were on track to kick 101 points if they played full minutes, so in a way, yes. The other two grand finals, Richmond scored 100 points.

And yes, not all grand finals result in a team scoring 100 points. It's why I also talked about finals in general. My point is attacking sides win more games of football as they generate more chances to win and back their defence to be able to stand up when they need to. Lyon protects his defence by playing... defensively, which means his forwardline doesn't get enough of the ball to win finals where it's harder to score.

funny you mentioned that. Richmond were on track to score 101 points had it been full 20 minute quarters?

Go look at the stats in the 2019 season as well. As those were 20 minute quarters too. No team averaged 100 points a game in attack. Only 2 teams averaged 90 points in attack and both of them finished top 2 and didn't ame the grand final. And yes I'm talking about Brisbane and geelong.

 

[Richo83]

When he had the players he was quite aggressive in counter attack play, and if anything Richmond adopted this style, just with a much better list.

I already conclusively disproved this notion in the thread Richmond 2017 v Ross Lyon's Saints & Dockers.

Ross Lyon football involves manic pressure on the ball carrier and lots of forward pressure, but also involves keeping players behind the play to prevent high scoring. So when Lyon teams don't have the ball, they press hard. When they do, they play the cautious approach and build slowly using short passing and lots of uncontested marks.

Don't believe me? Have a look at the last two Ross Lyon teams to make the grand final:

In 2010 St Kilda were

10th for inside 50s per game
1st in disposals per inside 50
1st for uncontested marks per game
1st for uncontested marks per inside 50
2nd for uncontested marks per disposal
1st for uncontested possessions per inside 50
1st for uncontested possessions per game
2nd for percentage of possessions uncontested

In 2013, Fremantle were

15th for inside 50s per game
4th for disposals per inside 50
1st for uncontested marks per game
2nd for uncontested marks per inside 50
1st for uncontested marks per disposal
4th for uncontested possessions per inside 50
9th for uncontested possessions per game
8th for percentage of possessions uncontested

Now what's Richmond's style? Does it involve much uncontested disposals and marks? Is it fairly cautious in terms of how much it attacks? Well, no.

In 2017, Richmond were

3rd for inside 50s per game
17th for disposals per inside 50
17th for uncontested marks per game
18th for uncontested marks per inside 50
13th for uncontested marks per disposal
18th for uncontested possessions per inside 50
18th for uncontested possessions per game
18th for percentage of possessions uncontested

So Richmond attacked with abandon and pumped the ball in as soon as they won it, no chipping of the ball, no sideways kicks, quick and attacking ball movement. That's not just unlike Ross Lyon football, that's the antithesis of Ross Lyon football, which prides itself on careful ball movement.

Stats sometimes lie. They don't here. And before you give me some hoary bullcrap rant about how statistics don't matter, because you watch the game, so do I. And these figures say the same thing that my eyeballs do, Richmond's gameplan, especially with the ball was not classic Ross Lyon football.

Bigfooty seems obsessed with the fact that Richmond and Fremantle defended similarly and equally well without looking at their style of ball movement and ignoring the fact that most premiership sides, not just Richmond defend well and pressure. Hawthorn's pressure and defensive abilities were elite. They didn't have to defend that much because the ball was usually at the other end, but when they did, they did it better than anyone else. Lyon sides also pressure well, so do Sydney under Longmire.

What makes a premiership side a premiership side is what they do with the ball. Do they play a more simpler game based on attack and direct ball movement? Or do they try and hold up the play and control the ball, which is harder in finals as things become more contested and things go wrong? This is why I'm not really surprised Lyon sides can't win grand finals, because it's based on a keepings off uncontested brand of football which doesn't hold up in finals as it limits your chances to score and can easily be unraveled through pressure. It's great if you want to squeeze the bejeesus out of some bottom four team travelling to Perth and you restrict them to 39 points for the game, but not good if you come against a team with genuine attacking firepower that's harder to contain and a team which pressures back.

I wrote that in 2017, and not that much has chanced in Richmond's 2019 and 2020 premierships. Manic surging ball movement, one of the highest inside 50s rates of the competition, and a team which plays with risk, playing it long and direct. It's not "pretty" because it's not precise kicking and involves a lot of heavy forwardline pressure which leads to inside 50 scraps. Not because it's some cautious, slow, plodding, defensive gameplan a la Lyon.

I don't think looking at The scores is misleading to be honest.

Read what I wrote above.

 

[Freomaniac]

I already conclusively disproved this notion in the thread Richmond 2017 v Ross Lyon's Saints & Dockers.

Ross Lyon football involves manic pressure on the ball carrier and lots of forward pressure, but also involves keeping players behind the play to prevent high scoring. So when Lyon teams don't have the ball, they press hard. When they do, they play the cautious approach and build slowly using short passing and lots of uncontested marks.

Don't believe me? Have a look at the last two Ross Lyon teams to make the grand final:

In 2010 St Kilda were

10th for inside 50s per game
1st in disposals per inside 50
1st for uncontested marks per game
1st for uncontested marks per inside 50
2nd for uncontested marks per disposal
1st for uncontested possessions per inside 50
1st for uncontested possessions per game
2nd for percentage of possessions uncontested

In 2013, Fremantle were

15th for inside 50s per game
4th for disposals per inside 50
1st for uncontested marks per game
2nd for uncontested marks per inside 50
1st for uncontested marks per disposal
4th for uncontested possessions per inside 50
9th for uncontested possessions per game
8th for percentage of possessions uncontested

Now what's Richmond's style? Does it involve much uncontested disposals and marks? Is it fairly cautious in terms of how much it attacks? Well, no.

In 2017, Richmond were

3rd for inside 50s per game
17th for disposals per inside 50
17th for uncontested marks per game
18th for uncontested marks per inside 50
13th for uncontested marks per disposal
18th for uncontested possessions per inside 50
18th for uncontested possessions per game
18th for percentage of possessions uncontested

So Richmond attacked with abandon and pumped the ball in as soon as they won it, no chipping of the ball, no sideways kicks, quick and attacking ball movement. That's not just unlike Ross Lyon football, that's the antithesis of Ross Lyon football, which prides itself on careful ball movement.

Stats sometimes lie. They don't here. And before you give me some hoary bullcrap rant about how statistics don't matter, because you watch the game, so do I. And these figures say the same thing that my eyeballs do, Richmond's gameplan, especially with the ball was not classic Ross Lyon football.

Bigfooty seems obsessed with the fact that Richmond and Fremantle defended similarly and equally well without looking at their style of ball movement and ignoring the fact that most premiership sides, not just Richmond defend well and pressure. Hawthorn's pressure and defensive abilities were elite. They didn't have to defend that much because the ball was usually at the other end, but when they did, they did it better than anyone else. Lyon sides also pressure well, so do Sydney under Longmire.

What makes a premiership side a premiership side is what they do with the ball. Do they play a more simpler game based on attack and direct ball movement? Or do they try and hold up the play and control the ball, which is harder in finals as things become more contested and things go wrong? This is why I'm not really surprised Lyon sides can't win grand finals, because it's based on a keepings off uncontested brand of football which doesn't hold up in finals as it limits your chances to score and can easily be unraveled through pressure. It's great if you want to squeeze the bejeesus out of some bottom four team travelling to Perth and you restrict them to 39 points for the game, but not good if you come against a team with genuine attacking firepower that's harder to contain and a team which pressures back.

I wrote that in 2017, and not that much has chanced in Richmond's 2019 and 2020 premierships. Manic surging ball movement, one of the highest inside 50s rates of the competition, and a team which plays with risk, playing it long and direct. It's not "pretty" because it's not precise kicking and involves a lot of heavy forwardline pressure which leads to inside 50 scraps. Not because it's some cautious, slow, plodding, defensive gameplan a la Lyon.



Read what I wrote above.

I dont care about your stats.

The only stat that matters is the scoreboard.

You say that a team scoring 90 points a game in attack during the regular season is decieving.

I will tell you this.....

I enjoyed the 2013 Prelim final between Freo and the Swans. I also enjoyed the 2017 grand final between Richmond and Crows.


Actually, when I watched the 2017 Grand final. I enjoyed the 2nd and 3rd quarters of that grand final. Richmond tackled and bashed the crows midfield with agression and manic pressure to the point the crows gave up. Richmond scored 9 goals and 5 behinds compared to the crows 1 goal and 8 behinds in that 2nd and 3rd quarter period,

I enjoyed freos 2nd and 3rd quarters in that prelim final vs the swans for similar reasons too. Freo chased and tackled the swans to the point where they were worn down. Freo outscored the swans in those 2nd and 3rd quarters for a combined total of 9 goals 3 behinds to the swans 3 goals 4 behinds.


Again, go watch the 2nd and 3rd quarters of both the 2013 Prelim between Freo and swans and the 2017 AFL grand final.

 

[Leeda]

I dont care about your stats.

The only stat that matters is the scoreboard.

You say that a team scoring 90 points a game in attack during the regular season is decieving.

I will tell you this.....

I enjoyed the 2013 Prelim final between Freo and the Swans. I also enjoyed the 2017 grand final between Richmond and Crows.


Actually, when I watched the 2017 Grand final. I enjoyed the 2nd and 3rd quarters of that grand final. Richmond tackled and bashed the crows midfield with agression and manic pressure to the point the crows gave up. Richmond scored 9 goals and 5 behinds compared to the crows 1 goal and 8 behinds in that 2nd and 3rd quarter period,

I enjoyed freos 2nd and 3rd quarters in that prelim final vs the swans for similar reasons too. Freo chased and tackled the swans to the point where they were worn down. Freo outscored the swans in those 2nd and 3rd quarters for a combined total of 9 goals 3 behinds to the swans 3 goals 4 behinds.


Again, go watch the 2nd and 3rd quarters of both the 2013 Prelim between Freo and swans and the 2017 AFL grand final.

you are rocking it dude..

 

[Richo83]

I dont care about your stats.

Because they're inconvenient to your narrative? Because they cut through the bullcrap of Fremantle supporters desperately trying to link a coach whose gamestyle doesn't work to a triple premiership coach who deliberately changed his gamestyle so he could win premierships?

The only stat that matters is the scoreboard.

Okay Mr Scoreboard. In 2013, Richmond averaged 98 points per game playing a possession-based kick and mark game. In 2018, they averaged 96 points per game playing a direct high play on, long kicking and handballing game. Completely different. The scoreboard tells me how much a team scores, not how they score.

You say that a team scoring 90 points a game in attack during the regular season is decieving.

I will tell you this.....

I enjoyed the 2013 Prelim final between Freo and the Swans. I also enjoyed the 2017 grand final between Richmond and Crows.

Actually, when I watched the 2017 Grand final. I enjoyed the 2nd and 3rd quarters of that grand final. Richmond tackled and bashed the crows midfield with agression and manic pressure to the point the crows gave up. Richmond scored 9 goals and 5 behinds compared to the crows 1 goal and 8 behinds in that 2nd and 3rd quarter period,

I enjoyed freos 2nd and 3rd quarters in that prelim final vs the swans for similar reasons too. Freo chased and tackled the swans to the point where they were worn down. Freo outscored the swans in those 2nd and 3rd quarters for a combined total of 9 goals 3 behinds to the swans 3 goals 4 behinds.

Great, and what did the teams do with the ball? The stats tell us that Richmond in 2017 used the ball much differently to how Fremantle in 2013 used the ball.

It's also deceiving because teams score points for certain reasons. Maybe their forwardline is efficient or inefficient. Maybe they play in a lower scoring era, like today. Maybe they play a negative conservative style of football which, despite it working in home and away where sides don't have great attacking firepower, doesn't work in finals.

I will admit though that Lyon is a bit unlucky having come against Thompson's cats and Clarkson's hawks. But those sides made their own luck by playing an aggressive style of football.

Again, go watch the 2nd and 3rd quarters of both the 2013 Prelim between Freo and swans and the 2017 AFL grand final.

I've seen the 2017 grand final roughly 10 times. I don't need to watch it again to know that premiership era Hardwick and Lyon's Fremantle and St Kilda play a different gamestyle. I mean, Hardwick himself has had a massive change in his gamestyle.