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Ross Lyon

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dewah07 said:
I don't even want to start an argument if you actually believe this crap...
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Im not really sure what you want to argue? He isnt a development coach.. or a caretaker coach or whatever. He has both times been brought into to finalise an already strong list and take it to a premiership. He has had three opportunities so far and through varying reasons, some of which can be put at Ross' feet, he has not lead a team to said premiership.
 

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Nutsngum said:
Im not really sure what you want to argue? He isnt a development coach.. or a caretaker coach or whatever. He has both times been brought into to finalise an already strong list and take it to a premiership. He has had three opportunities so far and through varying reasons, some of which can be put at Ross' feet, he has not lead a team to said premiership.
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4.. technically he had 3 chances at Saints and 1 at Freo :/
 
Ross Lyon is no where near one of the best coaches in the game. The best coaches at present are Clarkson & Hinkley, who have both started with teams down the bottom of the ladder & dragged them from those depths up into the top 4 (Hinkley) & 3-time premiership winners (Clarkson). Ross Lyon isn't even in the same ball-park as these guys, in fact he isn't even in the same state as these 2. Ross has a very strict game-plan & that's all he has. He has ZERO developmental skills IMO & as a coach whom is seen as putting the final polish on a team, has failed 4 times.

I agree that he is a good coach, but he isn't anywhere near being a brilliant, great or fantastic coach, that's for sure!
 
Rors said:
Ross Lyon is no where near one of the best coaches in the game. The best coaches at present are Clarkson & Hinkley, who have both started with teams down the bottom of the ladder & dragged them from those depths up into the top 4 (Hinkley) & 3-time premiership winners (Clarkson). Ross Lyon isn't even in the same ball-park as these guys, in fact he isn't even in the same state as these 2. Ross has a very strict game-plan & that's all he has. He has ZERO developmental skills IMO & as a coach whom is seen as putting the final polish on a team, has failed 4 times.

I agree that he is a good coach, but he isn't anywhere near being a brilliant, great or fantastic coach, that's for sure!
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Pretty much what I agree with.. should have a thread where we rank existing coaches. Would make for quite a fun exercise!
 
Lyon was so tunnel visioned with the club, but if the ball had bounced the right way a couple of times he'd be a St Kilda legend. He and others topped up and topped up and for differing reasons we didn't put enough emphasis on development and that's why we are in our current position.

Fact is that no developing/rebuilding club in their right mind would let him anywhere near them. However, he is a good fit for any club who is up around the top of the ladder but who can't take the next step. Clubs like Richmond, or North would be the type that he could excel at again assuming Freo continue downward.

He is far from a bad coach though, he is just a good to very good coach who has been lucky enough to be in control of two teams who were close to the peak of their powers when he took over.
 
Most coaches dont even get close to a premiership. How can u guys bag Lyon as a coach... Unbelievable.
Premierships are like diamonds. There hard to find. Not only are they hard to win but its hard to get a team in a position to really contend for 1. But heres a coach that regularly gets his team to top 4 almost every year hes been a head coach and people still dont think hes good. I cant remember people complaining when we were smashing teams by 100 points every week and winning prelims.
It doesnt just come down to how good players u have either. I could name a few teams that should have a good enough list to contend and yet dont even get close. and this happens all the time.
 
Rors said:
Ross Lyon is no where near one of the best coaches in the game. The best coaches at present are Clarkson & Hinkley, who have both started with teams down the bottom of the ladder & dragged them from those depths up into the top 4 (Hinkley) & 3-time premiership winners (Clarkson). Ross Lyon isn't even in the same ball-park as these guys, in fact he isn't even in the same state as these 2. Ross has a very strict game-plan & that's all he has. He has ZERO developmental skills IMO & as a coach whom is seen as putting the final polish on a team, has failed 4 times.

I agree that he is a good coach, but he isn't anywhere near being a brilliant, great or fantastic coach, that's for sure!
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out of interest why do you think hinkley is better than lyon. i mean in all honestly hinkley hasnt really done anything yet. dont get me wrong i think hinkley is a good coach but surely the argument given for ross can be applied to hinkley as well?

the one key difference is port had an amazing list, it was just under performing. i recall a saints fan asked ross around the time he left us, who he think had the best list, his response was port by a fair margin

as for ross, i think he's getting absolutely amazing results out of a freo list which is pretty average in my opinion. ive seen a lot of them over the journey, i've seen many of them play WAFL. i'm amazed some of their list is playing AFL let alone regulars. players like zac clarke are not AFL footballers yet ross has made a grand final using them. pretty decent effort IMO. some of their players are massively over-rated: mayne, hill are two good examples. sandi.

oh and i thought walters was absolutely done. average talent with a terrible work ethic. now look at him, massive credit to ross. now he's probably the best small fwd you can have for finals and big games
 
Defacto said:
out of interest why do you think hinkley is better than lyon. i mean in all honestly hinkley hasnt really done anything yet. dont get me wrong i think hinkley is a good coach but surely the argument given for ross can be applied to hinkley as well?

the one key difference is port had an amazing list, it was just under performing. i recall a saints fan asked ross around the time he left us, who he think had the best list, his response was port by a fair margin

as for ross, i think he's getting absolutely amazing results out of a freo list which is pretty average in my opinion. ive seen a lot of them over the journey, i've seen many of them play WAFL. i'm amazed some of their list is playing AFL let alone regulars. players like zac clarke are not AFL footballers yet ross has made a grand final using them. pretty decent effort IMO. some of their players are massively over-rated: mayne, hill are two good examples. sandi.

oh and i thought walters was absolutely done. average talent with a terrible work ethic. now look at him, massive credit to ross. now he's probably the best small fwd you can have for finals and big games
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Most coaches say that making a grand final is huge then the rest gets down to luck like injuries, bounces of the ball etc. He has an outstanding record at getting his sides into a GF. He will get one eventually if he keeps getting the sides he coaches there.

I don't think we are worse off for not having him though, he is seen as a negative coach who has an unwatchable brand. I personally loved GTs era as we were all about attack. Like Port under Hinkley you wanted to stand up watching us play as we were just so straight ahead.

If he'd snuck two of the Saints teams over the line he would be rated as one of the greatest of all time to have done it so soon in his senior coaching career. Footy is a pretty tough game, Zac, Raph and Clint would now be held up as immortal players of the club if Milney had controlled the ball.
 

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Defacto said:
out of interest why do you think hinkley is better than lyon. i mean in all honestly hinkley hasnt really done anything yet. dont get me wrong i think hinkley is a good coach but surely the argument given for ross can be applied to hinkley as well?

the one key difference is port had an amazing list, it was just under performing. i recall a saints fan asked ross around the time he left us, who he think had the best list, his response was port by a fair margin

as for ross, i think he's getting absolutely amazing results out of a freo list which is pretty average in my opinion. ive seen a lot of them over the journey, i've seen many of them play WAFL. i'm amazed some of their list is playing AFL let alone regulars. players like zac clarke are not AFL footballers yet ross has made a grand final using them. pretty decent effort IMO. some of their players are massively over-rated: mayne, hill are two good examples. sandi.

oh and i thought walters was absolutely done. average talent with a terrible work ethic. now look at him, massive credit to ross. now he's probably the best small fwd you can have for finals and big games
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One has remember that Port was an absolute basketcase. From 16th on the ladder in 2011 & 14th in 2012, Hinkley comes in & they jumped to 7th & won a final in 2013 (so technically they finished 5th/6th) then finished 3rd/4th in 2014 by missing a Grand Final by a kick.

I just don't see Ross getting a result that quickly. His gameplan is too.... robotic, Rigid. You get what I mean? That's my opinion anyway. I still rate Ross as a good coach, I just think he's very one dimensional, still has no plan B after coaching for 8 years & isn't very open to new ideas. For him to be successful, in my opinion he needs to realise that to take the next step (ie: win a flag), he needs to play more 'footballers' & far less 'role-playing athletes' & be more flexible. Until he can cope with a man-on-man game plan, he will never win a Grand Final because after quarter time, every game plan goes out the window & the game goes 1-on-1. And when that occurs, the team with better overall footballing talent wins.
 
saintbill said:
Freo will finish outside the top 4 this year, and likely the top 8 next year. This is the Saints all over again.

This will leave Lyon with a serious predicament. Does he jump ship again or try and ride it out waiting for them to come good? Ross won't sit through a full rebuild, he would likely get sacked before Freo become a contender again anyway. Yet jumping ship again as Freo slide down the ladder is a not a good look either. It is basically confirming "I am all about me". Not the kind of attitude that will appeal to a lot of clubs. Rightly or wrongly, Ross is know as the "almost guy". If he only had some blokes that could kick on GF day he could be a legend right now, instead he is right up against it in my opinion.
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I think its do or die for freo this year.
If Ross wins the grand final he will be a hero. If he loses this year, most people will think, its st kilda again. Then its a wait and see if he breaks this contract as well.

However, if their team win the grand final, he will be lauded for a long long time.
 
If Lyon's departure from St Kilda had not been the last minute, secretive back door deal, entirely doing the wrong thing by St Kilda, I could wish him good luck. But as mean spirited as it sounds, I want Fremantle to finish 5th this year and go out in their first final. Next year 9th, yes you get the pattern.
 
i think of it like racing cars.
If you don't have a team manager that can get the car running fast and reliably you won't be in the race.
If the car is competitive you have a chance to win.
The coach doesn't necessarily get to choose all the bits of the car , he just does what he can to get it competitive.

Lyon gave his teams every chance. Don't let him near list management though.
 
Defacto said:
out of interest why do you think hinkley is better than lyon. i mean in all honestly hinkley hasnt really done anything yet. dont get me wrong i think hinkley is a good coach but surely the argument given for ross can be applied to hinkley as well?
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Im not arguing cos I agree it is too early to call on Hinkley. But an argument can be made that Hinkley took on a side that finished 14th and took them up 10 spots.
Lyon took over top 8 sides and took them up a few spots.
 
Sunshine Saint said:
If Lyon's departure from St Kilda had not been the last minute, secretive back door deal, entirely doing the wrong thing by St Kilda, I could wish him good luck. But as mean spirited as it sounds, I want Fremantle to finish 5th this year and go out in their first final. Next year 9th, yes you get the pattern.
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Thats how I feel.
and leaving the playing list a shambles that had to be corrected over the past 3 years.
 

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St Kilda Death said:
Freo will be top 4.
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They are a decent chance, but it is not going to be an easy year to finish top 4. Hawks, Sydney & Port are very good. Can't see any of them not making it personally. The final spot could come from anywhere. Any of Fremantle, Geelong, North & Essendon could make it. I also think Gold Coast are a genuine chance as well, that midfield is scary. Even Richmond or Adelaide could win a lot of games. Freo will need to have a good run with injuries if they are going to make top 4.
 
sammm said:
Thats how I feel.
and leaving the playing list a shambles that had to be corrected over the past 3 years.
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Mick Shithouse did the same thing when he left the Weagles. But was forgiven cos he won two flags in the process of wringing the list dry.
Think peeps would probably be less critical of Lyons list management if he hadve won both flags as well.
Winning glosses over all sorts of negative stuff.
Losing brings it to the fore much quicker.
Thats my opinion anyway.
 
CALL ME SNAKE said:
Mick Shithouse did the same thing when he left the Weagles. But was forgiven cos he won two flags in the process of wringing the list dry.
Think peeps would probably be less critical of Lyons list management if he hadve won both flags as well.
Winning glosses over all sorts of negative stuff.
Losing brings it to the fore much quicker.
Thats my opinion anyway.
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I agree with you. Even I would've forgiven Ross if we had won the damn thing. but he didn't , we didn't.. and it is what it is.
 
Aside from the recruiting of Lovett (read Lenny's book to understand how he said all the right things & then did the opposite) with a late 1st round pick, how is Lyon's list management so roundly criticised? Don't give me examples like Clarke, C.Gardiner or Jesse Smith as example either- they were picked up or traded for with very late picks.

The list management debacle of 2008-2011 sits right at the feet of John Peake & a recruiting budget as low as any in the league.

The development of players is a different story but Ross was focused on getting a flag (rightly or wrongly in hindsight).

IMO he's the best tactical coach in the league by a mile. Give him the lists that Clarkson or Hinkley have & he'd win the flag in a canter.

I'm still bitter that he left us in those circumstances....I wanted to back him to rebuild.
 
Disagree... He had huge chance in 2009 and 2013.. Beaten. He had many champions at his disposal, complete teams and few injuries. Clarkson has proven far better.

He has notevolved his game plan... He doesn't develop players or team.

He is a match day coach... But doesn't coach beyond the present.

You must continually evolve at team... He stagnated... Doing it at Freo too
 
I lived on an Aboriginal community (Bathurst Island) in the 1980's as a teacher. The Tiwi's believed that when a person died, their name was then Pukamani (taboo) and couldn't be spoken for between 6-24 months. The time that a persons name is Pukamani is dependent on how important the person was.

When we start having these Lyon discussions, I do think of the clenched fist beating once on your chest, as you spit out the offending Pukamani word if you accidentally said it. Much happier if Lyon was Pukamani and we didn't mention his name again for a very long period of time.
 
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