Ross Lyon

[Freomaniac]

Sorry that you've been upset by criticism off Ross.
The criticism is warranted in my opinion. You don't think it is?
You see no problem in a list strategy that relies on players going onto 33 years of age rather than 30 and maintaining their output? You see no problem with NOT developing the kids?

You do realise freo did play a couple of kids in the 2013 grand final? Neale and sutcliffe were 2nd year players. Lyon doesnt keep playing his best 22, he rotates a squad of 25-27 players. So you think freo will hold back their youth players in blakely and weller? I doubt it. If your team is undefeated with 10 wins, you team is going to play 7 1st year players? no you dont, you rotate your rookies/kids. If blakely and weller play 3 games each this season then fine by me. Eagles won the 2006 flag with the 3rd youngest squad. 1 season later, Judd, cousins and chick left in 2007, in 2008, they finished bottom 4, what about those kids?

 

[The_Steadier]

The one thing people tend to overlook in this discussion is where the list is currently at, and where ours was at the time.

Freo like us were / are at 12 oclock. So you have to play your best 22 and have them settle. If you win one then its genius, if you don't then it's cliff time.

But you have to make a decision one way or the other and accept the consequences.

What I suspect will happen is that after this year, Freo will do a small clean out and then start developing some of their younger players... and have them at a competitive level when the the current lot reach maturity and are in their high 20's.

Now compare their talent to what we had in the wings in 2011... Geary, Steven and Armo.

Agreed.
We are in this bottom of the ladder mess now because of sustained poor recruiting, not because of not giving kids games.

 

[VDS66]

You do realise freo did play a couple of kids in the 2013 grand final? Neale and sutcliffe were 2nd year players. Lyon doesnt keep playing his best 22, he rotates a squad of 25-27 players. So you think freo will hold back their youth players in blakely and weller? I doubt it. If your team is undefeated with 10 wins, you team is going to play 7 1st year players? no you dont, you rotate your rookies/kids. If blakely and weller play 3 games each this season then fine by me. Eagles won the 2006 flag with the 3rd youngest squad. 1 season later, Judd, cousins and chick left in 2007, in 2008, they finished bottom 4, what about those kids?

I hope you guys win it this year... sick of Hawks and Swans and Geelong for that matter. would be nice for Pav who if he played in Victoria would be looked upon as immortal.

 

[Sweetback]

Sorry that you've been upset by criticism off Ross.

The criticism is warranted in my opinion. You don't think it is?

You see no problem in a list strategy that relies on players going onto 33 years of age rather than 30 and maintaining their output? You see no problem with NOT developing the kids?

In regards to age, these are the 30+ year old players who were in our best 22 last week:
Matthew Pavlich
Paul Duffield
Luke McPharlin
Aaron Sandilands
David Mundy.

Almost half of our best 22 from last week is 25 or under:
Matt Taberner
Cameron Sutcliffe
Clancee Pearce
Lachie Neale
Matt de Boer
Michael Walters
Nat Fyfe
Nick Suban
Stephen Hill
Zac Clarke

(And waiting in the wings are youngsters Hayden Crozier and Tommy Sheridan.)

In regards to development, of our best 22 from last week, these players were either drafted or recruited in the years that Ross joined Freo, or their positions were no certainty but he has developed them to contribute:
Cameron Sutcliffe
Matt Taberner
Lachie Neale
Michael Walters
Clancee Pearce
Zac Clarke
Paul Duffield
Chris Mayne
Matt de Boer
Nick Suban
Lee Spurr
Garrick Ibbotson
Michael Johnson.

(And knocking on the door is Tendai Mzungu.)

 

[Defacto]

In regards to age, these are the 30+ year old players who were in our best 22 last week:
Matthew Pavlich
Luke McPharlin
Aaron Sandilands
David Mundy.

Almost half of our best 22 from last week is 25 or under:
Matt Taberner
Cameron Sutcliffe
Clancee Pearce
Lachie Neale
Matt de Boer
Michael Walters
Nat Fyfe
Nick Suban
Stephen Hill
Zac Clarke

(And waiting in the wings are youngsters Hayden Crozier and Tommy Sheridan.)

In regards to development, of our best 22 from last week, these players were either drafted or recruited in the years that Ross joined Freo, or their positions were no certainty but he has developed them to contribute:
Cameron Sutcliffe
Matt Taberner
Lachie Neale
Michael Walters
Clancee Pearce
Zac Clarke
Paul Duffield
Chris Mayne
Matt de Boer
Nick Suban
Lee Spurr
Garrick Ibbotson
Michael Johnson.

I think you are passing over those 28-30 all whilst not really covering how much of a loss Mundy, Pav, McPharlin, Sandilands would be. Take out Mundy and that side will start to struggle. He is the single most important player to freo, more so than Fyfe.

Who replaces those 4?

 

[Sweetback]

I think you are passing over those 28-30 all whilst not really covering how much of a loss Mundy, Pav, McPharlin, Sandilands would be. Take out Mundy and that side will start to struggle. He is the single most important player to freo, more so than Fyfe.

Who replaces those 4?

I'll add Paul Duffield, who I just ninja'd in:

Matthew Pavlich - his replacement is currently in the 22 (Taberner). Apeness and Hannath are developing, although the former was just injured.
Paul Duffield - Brady Grey or Ed Langdon, both are pressing for selection. The former has been emergency a few times.
Luke McPharlin - Alex Pierce and Tanner Smith. Both have shown a bit this year.
Aaron Sandilands - Griffin is working back from his knee but he's been more than serviceable. If Sandi goes down this year, then Griff will step up until Craig Moller is ready. He's 20 years old and has started to put it together this year.
David Mundy - Connor Blakely. From our training reports, this kid is pretty much a clone of Mundy.

 

[Sweetback]

So of those players I've just mentioned, only Griffin was already here when Ross started.

 

[Defacto]

See that's the issue you can't just flick a switch and expect them to go at the same level as those you listed.

Blakely needs game time to develop into Mundy. He won't get it until Mundy moves role though. So it's s catch 22

Tabenar will never be pav. Apeness is a fwd ruck and Hannath more of the same but less agile. They are not pav an never will be. You need another key FWD.

McPharlin is the hardest to replace. None of those listed will be a 10th of the player and right now they definitely won't even get that far if they don't get game time. So you look to the others available:
Dawson/Johnson: well they're 28+ so times running out there
Silvagni is always bloody injured and isn't anywhere near McPharlin.

Sandi, well griff is 28+. Zac Clarke is lucky to still be in the side and won't be good enough post Sandi. So it's what Hannath? Hardly a number 1 ruck more resting ruck

So the big issue facing freo is still how do you replace the match winning core to support Fyfe/Neale/Walters

Seems Ross's strategy based on recent interviews is to push players to 33. High risk/high reward. If it fails, it'll fall away fast

 

[Sweetback]

Sorry, there's also Michael Johnson, who is 31 this year. Alex Pearce is looking to be his replacement, although Garrick Ibbotson has played his role in the past. So that makes six who are 30+.

As a comparison. The Hawks' grand final team also had six players 30+.

Gibson
Mitchell
Burgoyne
Hodge
Lake
Hale.

These are the players from our 22 from last week aged between 25 and 30. They're pretty entrenched in the 22 at the moment.
Hayden Ballantyne
Chris Mayne
Danyle Pearce
Garrick Ibbotson
Lee Spurr
Michael Barlow

I didn't mention them because the context of the discussion was the furphy that Ross didn't develop youth.

 

[Sweetback]

See that's the issue you can't just flick a switch and expect them to go at the same level as those you listed.

Blakely needs game time to develop into Mundy. He won't get it until Mundy moves role though. So it's s catch 22

Tabenar will never be pav. Apeness is a fwd ruck and Hannath more of the same but less agile. They are not pav an never will be. You need another key FWD.

McPharlin is the hardest to replace. None of those listed will be a 10th of the player and right now they definitely won't even get that far if they don't get game time. So you look to the others available:
Dawson/Johnson: well they're 28+ so times running out there
Silvagni is always bloody injured and isn't anywhere near McPharlin.

Sandi, well griff is 28+. Zac Clarke is lucky to still be in the side and won't be good enough post Sandi. So it's what Hannath? Hardly a number 1 ruck more resting ruck

So the big issue facing freo is still how do you replace the match winning core to support Fyfe/Neale/Walters

Seems Ross's strategy based on recent interviews is to push players to 33. High risk/high reward. If it fails, it'll fall away fast

The discussion is about developing players isn't it? We can't control how well those players will chop out an older player, Ross can only develop them to try and do so. You can only control what you can control.

 

[Sweetback]

In the modern era, the Cats have done the best to prolong a winning culture. Will the Hawks follow similarly when their old hands move on? Who knows, but it goes to show there are no certainties that developing players will mean they will be as effective as the incumbents, even if you're as well resourced as the Cats. You can only keep trying, though.

 

[VDS66]

It's an interesting debate to have...

The big advantage for the Cats is their VFL incubator whereby they can develop players correctly and therefore minimising their busts.

All teams will need to combine draft and trades to rebuild. There is no way around because any period of sustained success means that you miss out ontop draft picks in the top 10.

So you really have to nail those picks if you are solely relying on the draft. we didn't... the rest is history.

That said, you look at your list in the here and now, and for the Dockers, they are contending,so their emphasis has to be on experienced, seasoned players who can deliver on the game plan. W were much the same in 2009 / 2010.

The challenges both teams face are similar in that they are both on the cusp of losing their marquee forward as well as a few vets.

Either way, list holes have to be addressed. we did this by recruiting Paddy and Freo will to do the same if they want to replace Pav.

This may be addressed through trades, FA or both whereby they package players picks to trade up the draft order.

Is Freo adopting a go-for-broke for a flag approach and bugger what happens after we win one? probably. But we'll have to wait and see.

Winning form is good form and at 5-0 it's difficult to drop players unless their form is poor. The system also favours home finals especially for interstate clubs, so why wouldn't you go all out to win as many games as possible to secure it?

 

[Sweetback]

It's an interesting debate to have...

The big advantage for the Cats is their VFL incubator whereby they can develop players correctly and therefore minimising their busts.

All teams will need to combine draft and trades to rebuild. There is no way around because any period of sustained success means that you miss out ontop draft picks in the top 10.

So you really have to nail those picks if you are solely relying on the draft. we didn't... the rest is history.

That said, you look at your list in the here and now, and for the Dockers, they are contending,so their emphasis has to be on experienced, seasoned players who can deliver on the game plan. W were much the same in 2009 / 2010.

The challenges both teams face are similar in that they are both on the cusp of losing their marquee forward as well as a few vets.

Either way, list holes have to be addressed. we did this by recruiting Paddy and Freo will to do the same if they want to replace Pav.

This may be addressed through trades, FA or both whereby they package players picks to trade up the draft order.

Is Freo adopting a go-for-broke for a flag approach and bugger what happens after we win one? probably. But we'll have to wait and see.

Winning form is good form and at 5-0 it's difficult to drop players unless their form is poor. The system also favours home finals especially for interstate clubs, so why wouldn't you go all out to win as many games as possible to secure it?

There's definitely very little wriggle room in our best 22 at the moment as we're gunning for a flag, but our WAFL affiliate Peel are also second on the ladder at the moment, so things are currently looking good at different levels of the club.

The Saints are looking a bit better after the blip that was Scotty Watters but it highlights the issue that affected the Saints prior to and following Ross's tenure, which is that the board and football administration didn't cop enough at the time for some of the decisions made by the club.

 

[Defacto]

The discussion is about developing players isn't it? We can't control how well those players will chop out an older player, Ross can only develop them to try and do so. You can only control what you can control.

thats a cop out. for instance the game against WCE, instead of resting some of those 30+ and blooding the kids and putting pressure on selection the following week, nothing was done

blakely didnt get a game
bellard didnt get a game
weller didnt get a game
langdon didnt get a game
hannath didnt get a game
apeness didnt get a game
pearce didnt get a game

and you know what...nothing will change. ross will go in with minimal changes and focused on winning so unless the kids can flick a switch and become the next mundy/mcpharlin/pav/sandi over night the drop off will come

 

[Sweetback]

thats a cop out. for instance the game against WCE, instead of resting some of those 30+ and blooding the kids and putting pressure on selection the following week, nothing was done

blakely didnt get a game
bellard didnt get a game
weller didnt get a game
langdon didnt get a game
hannath didnt get a game
apeness didnt get a game
pearce didnt get a game

and you know what...nothing will change. ross will go in with minimal changes and focused on winning so unless the kids can flick a switch and become the next mundy/mcpharlin/pav/sandi over night the drop off will come

Sorry, but that's bullshit. We've got a settled 22 working towards a top two finish. Those players will have to earn their positions, just like the newbies in Sutcliffe, Neale and Taberner. What kind of a moron would drop a best 22 player just to play a young player, who wouldn't be able to run out a game, when we're a finals bound side? What you're suggesting is for idiots.

 

[Defacto]

Sorry, but that's bullshit. We've got a settled 22 working towards a top two finish. Those players will have to earn their positions, just like the newbies in Sutcliffe, Neale and Taberner. What kind of a moron would drop a best 22 player just to play a young player, who wouldn't be able to run out a game, when we're a finals bound side? What you're suggesting is for idiots.

see now it gets personal... no surprise

you have to manage your players. hawthorn is very good at it and find ways to get games into the kids. compare lachie neale to hill in 2013 then see the game they both had in the GF

look at what hawthorns done with free agency compared to freo, they have an advantage there, so if anything freo should be looking to maximise their opportunity to blood kids against bottom 8 sides

later tonight i'll do a comparison between freo 2015 and st kilda 2010

 

[Sweetback]

see now it gets personal... no surprise

you have to manage your players. hawthorn is very good at it and find ways to get games into the kids. compare lachie neale to hill in 2013 then see the game they both had in the GF

look at what hawthorns done with free agency compared to freo, they have an advantage there, so if anything freo should be looking to maximise their opportunity to blood kids against bottom 8 sides

later tonight i'll do a comparison between freo 2015 and st kilda 2010

Hawthorn's advantage with free agency is that they're in Melbourne and the kind of players who become free agents have to consider their partners and young families when moving across the country to join Freo. I think we're doing pretty well to maintain a balance of young and old players in the 22 while developing more youth in the seconds.

 

[VDS66]

It's a high risk / high reward strategy. win a flag and its genius. Don't win as we did then it goes pear shape. Regardless of this years outcome, I would hope your club has a small clean out to avoid the mistakes we made. Even if you win a flag, you still have to regenerate a few players the following year.

Our club didn't do that in 2011, partly due to Lyon's stubbornness in going back to his tried and tested players once we started winning... and most I suspect because of the crap recruiting in preceding years.

Hopefully you won't be bereft of young talent as we were.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

I personally don't think Freo will 'fall off the cliff' anything like we did.

YES they are gunning for a flag & are picking a side that is very experienced (as they should!). I'm 100% in the camp that it was not Ross' decisions that cost us (any recruiting of experienced players in that era -outside of Lovett- was done with late picks) but it was the total failure of John Peake's drafting.

Freo have been making some very astute drafting decisions & haven't traded away any early (1st & 2nd rounders) picks. They've generally developed their kids very well too (Neale is a revelation) so the issues that we caused ourselves during our premiership window I just don't see the Dockers repeating. There's a bit of re-writing history at times with Ross- he did go with a quite a few of our young guys (the limited ones that we had) during 2011. Armo & Jack were either not performing at VFL level or injured at times during 2010/11 when they could have had an extended run. I don't believe in the premise of playing kids for the sake of it especially during a premiership drive.

I'm a big wrap for the WA perspective that you bring Defacto but I don't think you will see Freo fall hard....they'll inevitably drop away a bit when the 28-33 year olds slow down/retire but they've got a decent young/mid age group that will be the basis for a rebuild in the next couple of years. If they pinch a flag in that time, well any fall off will be worth it.

 

[The Punter]

IIRC, a lot of the youngsters who were tried in 2011 ended up getting injured.

 

[Defacto]

Hawthorn's advantage with free agency is that they're in Melbourne and the kind of players who become free agents have to consider their partners and young families when moving across the country to join Freo. I think we're doing pretty well to maintain a balance of young and old players in the 22 while developing more youth in the seconds.

so if you agree with me, surely you can see the need to blood more kids when you can against poor opposition

the thing freo might be taking a punt on is that players like bellard, weller, langdon, smith, apeness dont end up pulling the pin and going back home due to lack of opportunity ala michie

weller and langdon were considered flight risks even before you get to them performing well and not playing

 

[Sweetback]

so if you agree with me, surely you can see the need to blood more kids when you can against poor opposition

the thing freo might be taking a punt on is that players like bellard, weller, langdon, smith, apeness dont end up pulling the pin and going back home due to lack of opportunity ala michie

weller and langdon were considered flight risks even before you get to them performing well and not playing

I was actually disagreeing with you.

We haven't missed Michie, who left because he was smart enough to see he was behind too many players. He's been the only player since our new era began in 2008 to do so without another good reason.

Any player who is signed to a club is a flight risk but we have had very few who once they arrive at the club, want to leave.

 

[VDS66]

so if you agree with me, surely you can see the need to blood more kids when you can against poor opposition

the thing freo might be taking a punt on is that players like bellard, weller, langdon, smith, apeness dont end up pulling the pin and going back home due to lack of opportunity ala michie

weller and langdon were considered flight risks even before you get to them performing well and not playing

Yeah but why do it so early in the season? At a minimum, you'd want to be a top 4 lock before experimenting.

I don't think you'll find too many if any clubs resting players after round 5.

 

[Defacto]

I was actually disagreeing with you.

We haven't missed Michie, who left because he was smart enough to see he was behind too many players. He's been the only player since our new era began in 2008 to do so without another good reason.

Any player who is signed to a club is a flight risk but we have had very few who once they arrive at the club, want to leave.

you agreed with me on free agency, the reasons you stated are exactly why hawthorn have an advantage there, so its not like you can easily replace your ageing core with ready made quality players, hence the need to have more emphasis on blooding the kids

 

[Defacto]

Yeah but why do it so early in the season? At a minimum, you'd want to be a top 4 lock before experimenting.

I don't think you'll find too many if any clubs resting players after round 5.

very even year, when do you know the top 4 will be a "lock"?

you take the opportunities to blood kids when they arise. the wce game was a perfect opportunity that was missed