Ross Smith - What went wrong?

Maroo

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I'll preface this by apologising if it's been discussed at length before. My searching couldn't find Smith's name in a thread title excluding when he joined the club.

In September 2011, the recruitment of Ross Smith onto our coaching panel as a 'team defence' coach from Hawthorn where he helped to create the 'cluster', was seen as a boon for the club.

Two years into Hardwick's rebuild, everyone could see that there was some talent there and Smith's addition was going to help create a defence that would add to our offensive weapons and help push us towards September.

Over 6 years, while we have had some elite defensive units (mostly in the last few years), the team was still criticised for being poor defensively overall.

Smith left the club this time last year and now we're in a Prelim, with our berth on the back of manic defensive pressure.

So to those who know a bit about the inner workings of the club (or like to think that they do), I ask - why weren't we better defensively during Ross Smith's tenure and did his leaving have anything directly to do with why we instantly got better?
 

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bananatigz

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I think it's a bit unfair to him to say we weren't great defensively during his tenure, our defence was probably what got us into those 3 failed finals campaigns, when the rest of our side had quite obvious deficiencies. Unfortunately you need to be able to kick goals to win finals. He was the one most were expecting to be kept on when we did the clean out. I'm not sure what he's doing this year but I'd be surprised if he's not in someone's set-up.
 

Goldust

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Another Hardwick relative? ;)
Sorry to intrude, but our defence was sound and one of the best throughout Ross Smith's tenure as defensive coach and undoubtedly our strength, especially compared to our faltering and stuttering forward line.
Rance was not the same player in 2010 as he was in '11, nor was he the same in '12 as he was '11 and one and on. Rance came good and became elite under Ross Smith and his system. Some would like to think Dylan Grimes has evolved this year - #2 has played to a high standard and been vastly underrated since his debut. Houli has played very good football since his arrival - again all but one year was played under Ross Smith. Ditto for Vlastuin, so the makings were always there.
The one area Smith suffered was our single-minded approach to finding that one, gun half back flanker and whether you choose to believe it or not, it came at the expense of development elsewhere. 2017 was the first time in about a decade we actually put a bit of thought into our forward line. FFS, we spent three/four years trying to find ONE small, defensive forward, who tackled and chased and harrassed, until some genius 12 months ago pondered 'what if we get the entire forward line to harass, chase and tackle? Novel.
Back to Roscoe, our defence did not let us down in those three finals losses .... it was our midfield and forwards.
 

TOOs_Finest

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Smith wasn't brought in to look after our defense as such, but our whole team full ground defensive structures. This is a valid question, and I have wondered the exact same thing. Maybe it was just a ruse that he had a lot to do with the successful Hawks defensive systems. They didn't seem too worried about losing him at the time.
 

"The Roar Is Back"

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Smith wasn't brought in to look after our defense as such, but our whole team full ground defensive structures. This is a valid question, and I have wondered the exact same thing. Maybe it was just a ruse that he had a lot to do with the successful Hawks defensive systems. They didn't seem too worried about losing him at the time.
Hawthorne defensive structure was based heavily on having two key forwards a more than handy 3rd tall as well as keeping possession if the footy. Which are all things we didn't have and subsequently it didnt suit or playing list.
 

Bojangles17

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If I recall , our defence started well under smith , ultimately it waned however I agree it wasnt the nub of our problem. Our midfield lacked grunt and size and our forward line had the mettle of a pricked balloon. We ve improved no end in these areas in addition to picking a better balanced side that has 4-5 players selected for their defensive ability first , footy ability second
 

TigerImposter

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We lacked the ability to tackle as there was a myth with SDH and the FD that we weren't a tackling side . How the xxxx can you win finals without immense pressure and tackling?
Along came Blake and a few other blokes and suddenly we are the close to the best at it. Pre Balme and friends was a complete waste of our lives so let's focus on 2017 and not on failures who were stealing a living from us.
 

Goldust

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We lacked the ability to tackle as there was a myth with SDH and the FD that we weren't a tackling side . How the xxxx can you win finals without immense pressure and tackling?
Along came Blake and a few other blokes and suddenly we are the close to the best at it. Pre Balme and friends was a complete waste of our lives so let's focus on 2017 and not on failures who were stealing a living from us.
You got that right ...... 17 other sides, 13 VFL clubs and a bunch of metropolitan and country league clubs had a great ol' chuckle when DH trotted out the 'we're not a tackling side' line. The bloke tries to rewrite the game by being the only side to win games without laying a tackle. Move on!
 

Livonski

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Western Bulldogs had one game this year where they had 104 tackles...and lost.
In another game they had 38 tackles..and won.

We are ranked 7th in tackles, behind Norf, Hawks, Dees etc

Tackles inside 50 is where we have radically improved and where the scoreboard has been impacted.

Vickery, Lloyd, Griffiths/Lennon out. Castagna, Butler, Rioli in. Funnily enough those changes have coincided with a dramatic tackle increase.

Hardwick comments around tackling were protective towards those slow forwards. As always he was looking after his boys.
 

Komrade_Tiger

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Western Bulldogs had one game this year where they had 104 tackles...and lost.
In another game they had 38 tackles..and won.

We are ranked 7th in tackles, behind Norf, Hawks, Dees etc

Tackles inside 50 is where we have radically improved and where the scoreboard has been impacted.

Vickery, Lloyd, Griffiths/Lennon out. Castagna, Butler, Rioli in. Funnily enough those changes have coincided with a dramatic tackle increase.

Hardwick comments around tackling were protective towards those slow forwards. As always he was looking after his boys.
There's statistics, and then there's statistics.

Very good point IMHO
 

TigerImposter

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There's statistics, and then there's statistics.

Very good point IMHO
What he stated was dribble as for one he mentions another club stats v two other non mentioned opponents. Lost my argument there.
Then he goes on and supports the tackling and pressure argument, but conveniently or just by ignorance missed the point.
The tackling and pressure act argument I made earlier was solely based on us as the rfc improving in these stats alone based on any other season under SDH. These stats are through the roof. It's not only in our forward line as why do you think young Graham is getting a gig?
 

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Livonski

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What he stated was dribble as for one he mentions another club stats v two other non mentioned opponents. Lost my argument there.
Then he goes on and supports the tackling and pressure argument, but conveniently or just by ignorance missed the point.
The tackling and pressure act argument I made earlier was solely based on us as the rfc improving in these stats alone based on any other season under SDH. These stats are through the roof. It's not only in our forward line as why do you think young Graham is getting a gig?
Dribble?
You're still unable to recognise an intelligent, well constructed argument.

Tackling and pressure = great. Having players that can do it = necessary ingredient.

Graham wasn't here, nor Butler, nor Castagna.
Why do you think a spud like Morris was tried forward if Hardwick didn't care about tackling and pressure?

Use your brain mate. I know it must be hurting you to acknowledge the reality that is Hardwicks talent.
 

TigerImposter

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Dribble?
You're still unable to recognise an intelligent, well constructed argument.

Tackling and pressure = great. Having players that can do it = necessary ingredient.

Graham wasn't here, nor Butler, nor Castagna.
Why do you think a spud like Morris was tried forward if Hardwick didn't care about tackling and pressure?

Use your brain mate. I know it must be hurting you to acknowledge the reality that is Hardwicks talent.
Hey BSA was this SDH grand plan to sell his assistants short and then everything would click?Why the review?
Why Balme?
Neither was Caracella there last year. I will leave you In SDH (The Harvard Scholar) own words


WE'RE NOT A TACKLING SIDE.;)
 
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GoTigers2015

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Rance was not the same player in 2010 as he was in '11, nor was he the same in '12 as he was '11 and one and on. Rance came good and became elite under Ross Smith and his system.
Leppa has been given the credit for Alex Rance phenomenal development, Source Trent Cotchin:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/richmond/alex-rance-is-one-of-the-most-competitive-humans-that-has-walked-the-planet-writes-trent-cotchin/news-story/2d6a32552d0bf4556d82629813b6af1d

Assistant coach Justin Leppitsch, in particular, has done a fantastic job helping shape and refine his game. “Leppa” has given Alex the right defensive techniques and rounded out those rough edges.

Now as vice-captain, Rance is very good at knowing when it’s time to switch-on to footy, and when to lighten up and have some fun with the boys.
 

TigerImposter

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Has your brain got the ability to ask why Hardwick would downplay tackling?

Think mate, think past what is directly in front of your face.
Reality is a bit more subtle than regurgitating one liners.
I was quoting your mates famous line ,not my one liner or was that too difficult for you to comprehend?
Hey BSA was this SDH grand plan to sell his assistants short and then everything would click?Why the review?
Why Balme?Along came Blake and a few other blokes and suddenly we are the close to the best at it.
Pre Balme and friends was a complete waste of our lives so let's focus on 2017 and not on failures who were stealing a living from us.

Neither was Caracella there last year. I will leave you In SDH (The Harvard Scholar) own words


WE'RE NOT A TACKLING SIDE.;)
 
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Livonski

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I was quoting your mates famous line ,not my one liner or was that too difficult for you to comprehend?
Hey BSA was this SDH grand plan to sell his assistants short and then everything would click?Why the review?
Why Balme?Along came Blake and a few other blokes and suddenly we are the close to the best at it.
Pre Balme and friends was a complete waste of our lives so let's focus on 2017 and not on failures who were stealing a living from us.

Neither was Caracella there last year. I will leave you In SDH (The Harvard Scholar) own words


WE'RE NOT A TACKLING SIDE.;)

You know you're gone when you have to edit every post. hehe

Am I BSA? Seriously, come and join the adults and lose this childish cubby house secret language.
 

TigerImposter

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You know you're gone when you have to edit every post. hehe

Am I BSA? Seriously, come and join the adults and lose this childish cubby house secret language.
You beat me to the edit which I thought would help you.
Speaking of cubby houses didn't sdh admit he was too young to coach after he failed last year? He was short of all excuses that he admitted to hiding inside his man cave and rocking for hours on his rocking chair. Where was the blokes great plan? I can recall Caracella had it in full swing while he was at Harvard doing some PD course. lol
Childish behaviour is rampant in the SDH make up so I will stick to the theme. Just read signature at the bottom of my posts.
 
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Livonski

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You beat me to the edit which I thought would help you.
Speaking of cubby houses didn't sdh admit he was too young to coach after he failed last year? He was short of all excuses that he admitted to hiding inside his man cave and rocking for hours on his rocking chair. Where was the blokes great plan? I can recall Caracella had it in full swing while he was at Harvard doing some PD course. lol
Childish behaviour is rampant in the SDH family so I will stick to the theme. Just read signature at the bottom of my posts.
Edit.
Deflect.
Subvert.
Change topic.
Insult.

Get back to tackling, especially inside 50, and discuss changes in personnel that have facilitated this.
Then I'll debate you. Otherwise I'm done with your drivel. Again.
 

theyellowsash

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It would make sense that our lack of tackling in that period was his responsibility if he was in charge of full ground defense. If he was trying to implement a cluster/zone strategy then he is responsible for the lack of tackling and the corralling opposition bulls**t that we all hated.

Perhaps he was just a coach who had his time but only had 1 tactic and couldn't adjust to the way the game changed. Both us and the hawks have so far improved significantly after he left.
 

TigerImposter

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Edit.
Deflect.
Subvert.
Change topic.
Insult.

Get back to tackling, especially inside 50, and discuss changes in personnel that have facilitated this.
Then I'll debate you. Otherwise I'm done with your drivel. Again.
Yep you are clueless and deflecting and now that your Childish debate backfired you're playing the man.
Tackling has improved all over the ground for us. So much that even Prestia has learnt a defensive side to his game.
Still amazes me that SDH knew we were going to pick up Graham at 50+ and he was going to be our inside tackling machine. Yet you can only see forward pressure. It amazes me what our mids or defenders must be doing as scores suggest we are brilliant defensively all over the park. Please put me back on ignore as your work is below childish level and more to trolling.
Now slowly repeat after me:

WE

ARE

NOT

A

TACKLING

SIDE
 

Livonski

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Yep you are clueless and deflecting and now that your Childish debate backfired you're playing the man.
Tackling has improved all over the ground for us. So much that even Prestia has learnt a defensive side to his game.
Still amazes me that SDH knew we were going to pick up Graham at 50+ and he was going to be our inside tackling machine. Yet you can only see forward pressure. It amazes me what our mids or defenders must be doing as scores suggest we are brilliant defensively all over the park. Please put me back on ignore as your work is below childish level and more to trolling.
Now slowly repeat after me:

WE

ARE

NOT

A

TACKLING

SIDE
May 2, 2013 - THE TIGERS will need to increase their tackling if they are going to get over undefeated Geelong at the MCG on Saturday night, says coach Damien Hardwick.
 

TigerImposter

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May 2, 2013 - THE TIGERS will need to increase their tackling if they are going to get over undefeated Geelong at the MCG on Saturday night, says coach Damien Hardwick.
Haha and what happened? Shows how desperate and silly you look as it took Caracella to do it . If this was the BSA great plan then why say four years later we aren't a tackling side?Also he was referring to one game and not a seasonal change. Go and do your comparison on all of sdh previous years of tackling stats and compare them to Caracella's this year.
Has sdh upgraded his rocker to a Blake recliner?
 
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NZ_Tiger

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Another Hardwick relative? ;)
Sorry to intrude, but our defence was sound and one of the best throughout Ross Smith's tenure as defensive coach and undoubtedly our strength, especially compared to our faltering and stuttering forward line.
Rance was not the same player in 2010 as he was in '11, nor was he the same in '12 as he was '11 and one and on. Rance came good and became elite under Ross Smith and his system. Some would like to think Dylan Grimes has evolved this year - #2 has played to a high standard and been vastly underrated since his debut. Houli has played very good football since his arrival - again all but one year was played under Ross Smith. Ditto for Vlastuin, so the makings were always there.
The one area Smith suffered was our single-minded approach to finding that one, gun half back flanker and whether you choose to believe it or not, it came at the expense of development elsewhere. 2017 was the first time in about a decade we actually put a bit of thought into our forward line. FFS, we spent three/four years trying to find ONE small, defensive forward, who tackled and chased and harrassed, until some genius 12 months ago pondered 'what if we get the entire forward line to harass, chase and tackle? Novel.
Back to Roscoe, our defence did not let us down in those three finals losses .... it was our midfield and forwards.
Leppa was the backline coach. Smith was the full ground defense coach. He can be credited with great innovations like kicking to jack deep in the pocket as it was easier to stop defend if the ball was turned over and the lovely pressure coralling nonsense.
 

Goldust

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Dribble?
You're still unable to recognise an intelligent, well constructed argument.

Tackling and pressure = great. Having players that can do it = necessary ingredient.

Graham wasn't here, nor Butler, nor Castagna.
Why do you think a spud like Morris was tried forward if Hardwick didn't care about tackling and pressure?

Use your brain mate. I know it must be hurting you to acknowledge the reality that is Hardwicks talent.
Sad reality is every player is capable of applying pressure and every player is capable of tackling ...... and God forbid, they now DO.
We aren't a better team at applying pressure because of three blokes (Butler, Castagna and Rioli), we are better as they all do it - captain included, and even blokes like Houli and Grigg and BEllis have joined the party.
So where was the previous logic? Truth is we were as you great mate Dimma said .. 'not a tackling side'. He was prepared to put all his eggs in one basket and have one bloke (first King and then later a miscast Steve Morris, who he ruined) be that tackling/pressure player, while he turned a blind eye to the likes of Vickery, who neither tackled, chased, nor applied a semblance of pressure, but allowed that to become thew standard by rewarding him with game after game. Reality dictates if Vickery had stayed, he would have been sent packing by roud three under the 'new' standard'. Any of Gordon, Dea, Arnott, McDonough could have done in 2015 what Butler and Castagna do now, but tackling and pressure was not a priority - keepings off was. Hardwick was content to think one defensive forward was enough. They ship him off to Harvard and he comes back to see a whole new world that's evolved in his absence. The current team tackle, chase and harass across the board, not just forward - but this was never a priority until this season.
 

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