List Mgmt. Ross the Boss

MadDocker

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Read the context of the posts I was responding to, tants.

Here's the thing I like about you: you were one of the biggest denialists of what was about to occur in 2015, fervently telling people that the club knew what it was doing. How can you continue to suppose you're the voice of authority when you got things so hopelessly wrong?
How is he wrong? No one is wrong or right at this stage. The predetermined time line to achieve the result hasn't passed. Your hypothetical past scenario that would allegedly be better somehow, or, seeing into the future that the current rebuild didn't work are nothing but your imaginations.

Doesn't look great copping losses like we did on the weekend but you, like everyone else, have next to zero idea of how we are tracking and how far off the mark the club is internally. Just a bunch of armchair experts sprouting off bullshit (me included). Remember fans were calling for Damian Hardwicks head just before they won the GF because he was a rubbish coach that was past it and didn't have the players etc etc.
 

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nurries

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Over the years, I've come to realise that the news in the media regarding Fremantle, their players, coaches, performances, etc... is often aligned to a far more negative narrative than what I believe to be true. Reading this thread, it saddens me when I see supposed Freo supporters who repeat many of those same negative narratives.

Here's my understanding of Freo's recent years under Ross Lyon;

In 2015, Freo won the minor premiership. They were eliminated in the Preliminary Final by the eventual three-peat premiers Hawthorn. There was plenty of media talk about how Freo couldn't win the premiership because they did not have enough scoring capabilities. But the only team in 2015 with a defence (ranked by Home and Away points) better than Freo was Hawthorn. The Hawks were also one of the few teams to have an older and more experienced team than Freo.

By the end of 2015, Freo appeared to be under pressure to find a way to overcome the skilled uncontested football game plan that the Hawks had.
Freo recruited assistant coaches with Hawthorn experience.
So in 2016, Freo with a revised game plan, got smashed (largely in scores from turnovers) by the Western Bulldogs in round 1. It was the bulldogs (eventual 2016 premiers) 10th successive win at their home ground (Docklands). Freo were without Sandilands, Johnson, A.Pearce (and promising recruits Harley Bennell and Shane Yarran).
In round 2, Freo again got beaten by Gold Coast at Subi. Statistically, Freo played OK, but again got smashed by costly turnovers and Freo's failure to defend against Gold Coasts run and spread. There appeared to be a move away from getting numbers to and behind the contested ball to now be more offensive to improve Freo's uncontested possession (ie. as Hawthorn do).
Next is the Western derby with Mundy missing and Sandilands getting injured in the 2nd qtr. The Slime win.
Freo then get Norths at the Docklands. Norths are in great form (older and more experienced) and end up winning their first 9 games of 2016. Freo are without Sandilands and Mundy and already trying to find some depth in younger players such as Weller, Langdon, A.Pearce, Taberner, Sheridan & Sutcliffe.
By then end of Round 5 after losing a close game at home to Carlton, with 7 Freo players with 50 games or less, and Fyfe breaking his leg, with no Sandilands, and Mundy, Freo's chances of playing finals in 2016 looks bleak.
I've gone to the effort here to show that sometimes in AFL, things just don't go your way. Can Freo be blamed for some of that? Yep. But there was also a great deal of bad luck happening. By the end of round 16 2016, I read an article which showed Freo had been affected by injury worse than any other AFL team. The article ranked the effect of the injuries by the quality of players lost. Freo had 431 points with Collingwood a distant 2nd worse off with 263 points.

So Freo bite the bullet and start the rebuild at the end of 2016 with aggressive recruiting via the draft and trade.
Fast forward to today and Freo are now consistently fielding a team of players that are currently considerably younger and less experienced than any of the current top 8 teams.

The picture I'm trying to paint is, I'm not so sure it's fair to be blaming Freo or Ross Lyon for the last few years. Unfortunate circumstances have pretty much dictated our recent history. If I look back further to the start of Ross Lyon's tenure (ie. end of 2011), I still struggle to identify any obvious failings. Attempts have been made to net some big fish, but they continue to escape capture. Last weekend, there was just 4 players who were recruited prior to Lyon arriving at Freo (Mundy, S.Hill, Walters and Sutcliffe). The statistics indicate that in 2 or 3 years, if Freo have a decent run with few injuries, then we should get to really see how successful our current rebuild is. Until then, I feel the finger pointing and blame game is based on a narrative heard in the media and not so much supported by recent history.
I agree somewhat with your post. I agree that a rebuild, restump, replumb or whatever was definitely required. Probably should of started as a mini one a few years earlier but I just want to know why the whole football department was not properly reviewed at the time?

We still have the same footy ops manager, mostly the same coaches and pertinent for the highlighted part here, the same S & C people. There seems to be a real stubbornness to not look into every part of the club in order to improve. Lets just bring in new players and not change much else is like Buying a brand new $2000 Amp for your Home Theatre system and attach them to your old crap $50 speakers. Its still going to sound like shit.
 

MadDocker

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I agree somewhat with your post. I agree that a rebuild, restump, replumb or whatever was definitely required. Probably should of started as a mini one a few years earlier but I just want to know why the whole football department was not properly reviewed at the time?

We still have the same footy ops manager, mostly the same coaches and pertinent for the highlighted part here, the same S & C people. There seems to be a real stubbornness to not look into every part of the club in order to improve. Lets just bring in new players and not change much else is like Buying a brand new $2000 Amp for your Home Theatre system and attach them to your old crap $50 speakers. Its still going to sound like shit.
I'm not convinced the club are turning away better options for those positions. No point sacking staff and having no one of decent quality to replace them with. We actively looked at people like Hird etc so they are sniffing around. I'm sure if they could land a wizard in any of the areas the club would do it. We've done it before.
 

Mudd

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Over the years, I've come to realise that the news in the media regarding Fremantle, their players, coaches, performances, etc... is often aligned to a far more negative narrative than what I believe to be true. Reading this thread, it saddens me when I see supposed Freo supporters who repeat many of those same negative narratives.

Here's my understanding of Freo's recent years under Ross Lyon;

In 2015, Freo won the minor premiership. They were eliminated in the Preliminary Final by the eventual three-peat premiers Hawthorn. There was plenty of media talk about how Freo couldn't win the premiership because they did not have enough scoring capabilities. But the only team in 2015 with a defence (ranked by Home and Away points) better than Freo was Hawthorn. The Hawks were also one of the few teams to have an older and more experienced team than Freo.

By the end of 2015, Freo appeared to be under pressure to find a way to overcome the skilled uncontested football game plan that the Hawks had.
Freo recruited assistant coaches with Hawthorn experience.
So in 2016, Freo with a revised game plan, got smashed (largely in scores from turnovers) by the Western Bulldogs in round 1. It was the bulldogs (eventual 2016 premiers) 10th successive win at their home ground (Docklands). Freo were without Sandilands, Johnson, A.Pearce (and promising recruits Harley Bennell and Shane Yarran).
In round 2, Freo again got beaten by Gold Coast at Subi. Statistically, Freo played OK, but again got smashed by costly turnovers and Freo's failure to defend against Gold Coasts run and spread. There appeared to be a move away from getting numbers to and behind the contested ball to now be more offensive to improve Freo's uncontested possession (ie. as Hawthorn do).
Next is the Western derby with Mundy missing and Sandilands getting injured in the 2nd qtr. The Slime win.
Freo then get Norths at the Docklands. Norths are in great form (older and more experienced) and end up winning their first 9 games of 2016. Freo are without Sandilands and Mundy and already trying to find some depth in younger players such as Weller, Langdon, A.Pearce, Taberner, Sheridan & Sutcliffe.
By then end of Round 5 after losing a close game at home to Carlton, with 7 Freo players with 50 games or less, and Fyfe breaking his leg, with no Sandilands, and Mundy, Freo's chances of playing finals in 2016 looks bleak.
I've gone to the effort here to show that sometimes in AFL, things just don't go your way. Can Freo be blamed for some of that? Yep. But there was also a great deal of bad luck happening. By the end of round 16 2016, I read an article which showed Freo had been affected by injury worse than any other AFL team. The article ranked the effect of the injuries by the quality of players lost. Freo had 431 points with Collingwood a distant 2nd worse off with 263 points.

So Freo bite the bullet and start the rebuild at the end of 2016 with aggressive recruiting via the draft and trade.
Fast forward to today and Freo are now consistently fielding a team of players that are currently considerably younger and less experienced than any of the current top 8 teams.

The picture I'm trying to paint is, I'm not so sure it's fair to be blaming Freo or Ross Lyon for the last few years. Unfortunate circumstances have pretty much dictated our recent history. If I look back further to the start of Ross Lyon's tenure (ie. end of 2011), I still struggle to identify any obvious failings. Attempts have been made to net some big fish, but they continue to escape capture. Last weekend, there was just 4 players who were recruited prior to Lyon arriving at Freo (Mundy, S.Hill, Walters and Sutcliffe). The statistics indicate that in 2 or 3 years, if Freo have a decent run with few injuries, then we should get to really see how successful our current rebuild is. Until then, I feel the finger pointing and blame game is based on a narrative heard in the media and not so much supported by recent history.
There are a lot of excuses in here for a supposed no excuses football club.

As you've mentioned most of the media is negative against us at the moment and there is also a lot of negativity from posters on this board... Sure there are some in the media who have an agenda against us but the majority of the media don't, they are far more impartial than us rabid Freo fans, maybe what you believe to be true isn't quite true?
 

wayToGo_

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There are a lot of excuses in here for a supposed no excuses football club.
Why does this phrase continually get brought up and applied to BF posters? If Ross comes out and says we are a non-melting football club can we then bring it up every time someone melts about everything from selection to injuries to game plan to 'culture'?

And the continual bringing up "sustained success" thing. They were comments from years ago when the club was in an entirely different stage. Sustained success (in the way most on here would interpret it) is impossible in a competition with 18 teams and only one winner each year.

I'm all for constructive criticism and debate but can we do away with the silly strawmans?
 

Rion

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Seen 2010 get mentioned a few times as if it was only our 2nd year of the last rebuild and three years of missing finals being unacceptable...

2005 we finished 10th on the ladder
2006 we finished 3rd - Schofield retired.
2007 we finished 11th - Cook, Longmuir, Parker retired. Walker, Hadrill delisted.
2008 we finished 14th - Bell, Black, MCarr, Farmer, Johnson, McManus, Webster retired. JCarr delisted.
2009 we finished 14th - Solomon retired.
2010 we finished 6th - Haselby, Headland, Thornton retired. Dodd delisted.
2011 we finished 10th - Hayden, Schammer retired.
2012 we finished 7th (in Ross' first year) - Grover retired. McPhee delisted.

IMO our last rebuild started at the end of 2007 (after we fell from 3rd to 11th) when our long serving players started retiring and ended in 2012 after Ross' first season with us. We were out of the finals for 3 years, then snuck into the finals and then fell out again the following year. In those years there were only 16 teams playing, so average was making finals 50% of the time.

2013 we finished 3rd - nobody notable retired or was delisted.
2014 we finished 4th - Bradley, Gumbleton retired.
2015 we finished 1st - McPharlin, Sylvia retired. Crowley delisted.
2016 we finished 16th - Pavlich retired. Barlow, Mzungu, CPearce, de Boer, Silvagni delisted.
2017 we finished 14th - Dawson, Ibbotson retired. Clarke, Suban, Griffin delisted.

So IMO this rebuild started at the end of 2016 (after we fell from 1st to 16th) and Pavlich retired and we delisted a heap of long serving players. There are now 18 teams playing, so average is now making the finals 44.4% of the time.

Last rebuild we went from 14th to 6th in one year but given we stumbled out of the finals the following year it is perhaps a bit misleading. Sandi and Mundy are our only remaining key veterans on our list. Our list should get a lot better quite quickly from now onward. Over half our current B22 will hit the magic 50+ games experience either next year or the year following. We'll start having a demographic far more in line with those in the 8 or just outside. There are a bunch of teams playing old B22s (eg Port, WC, Hawks, Adelaide, Essendon, Geelong etc). All of these teams have a bunch of veterans in key positions that for most will mean they will fall off a cliff when they go (there is always a tipping point) and provide space for us to move up into. Quite a few of them invested heavily in the past two off seasons (via trades/FA) to try and extend their window - IMO it has created an exaggerated and temporary gap in the middle of the ladder between young and old teams. It probably won't be as sudden as our '15 to '16 drop but history suggests it will inevitably happen for most, if not all of these clubs in the coming couple of years.

Assuming we can continue the good trading and drafting we've seen in the past couple of years we can set ourselves up well to make a push. We are probably a long shot to make finals again next year but my expectation is for us to at least continue climbing the ladder (if we don't show improvement then Ross' tenure would be in jeopardy). If we don't make finals in 2020 then the rebuild will have failed and Ross will accept responsibility - and we'll almost certainly get a new coach who should inherit a fairly decent list. Based on timings from last time around, 2022 is the equivalent of 2013 so it's not as if we are padding out the timeline here.

We need to stop reacting so emotionally over an individual loss as if we are the worst team in history (or a win as if it is a sign we are the GOAT) and just accept we are building toward having a balanced list and team that can be consistently competitive. If anyone can go back and find a team playing ~12 players under 50 games experience each week that made the 8 I'd love to know about it. Plenty of the criticism on here is justified but if you provide it in the context of where we are really at, it's far from the doomsday many are making out.
I think you've got to look at the arguments/criticism in context of Ross' future, not our future as a whole. Like you say if we aren't challenging in 2019/making finals in 2020 (which is actually less than what the stated ambition actually was but regardless) then he's gone. That means this year has to matter a lot more than it would comparably at a Brisbane/Carlton who started their rebuilds under their new coach. They have no real need of a specified time-line because it's a 'fresh start' and that's what they can sell to their members.

When you look at our efforts this season I'm not sure I'm seeing enough to make me confident we'll make it out of the bottom 8 or so next year (particularly if Sandi goes/doesn't play). So we might not fail in the rebuild because of course eventually even if it is 6-7 years down the track we'll make finals but I'm not sure Ross survives.
 

tants

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Read the context of the posts I was responding to, tants.

Here's the thing I like about you: you were one of the biggest denialists of what was about to occur in 2015, fervently telling people that the club knew what it was doing. How can you continue to suppose you're the voice of authority when you got things so hopelessly wrong?
I read the context and that your argument changes to suit your narrative.

As for the second part, I'd be very happy for you to find any posts of mine that support your second assertion.
 

blue shark

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This is a club problem more than just blaming everything on one person, and as a club we need to be on the front foot.
What we can all acknowledge is that hasn't worked since 2015.
All the clubs from 2015 that have won the GF have risen from diversity, even the Hawks were at one stage close to merging. They also only won 4 games in 2004 so things can change very quickly.
The above clubs made changes either new coach, or better assistants, I don;t see how we improve standing still.
 

malpaso

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This is a club problem more than just blaming everything on one person, and as a club we need to be on the front foot.
What we can all acknowledge is that hasn't worked since 2015.
All the clubs from 2015 that have won the GF have risen from diversity, even the Hawks were at one stage close to merging. They also only won 4 games in 2004 so things can change very quickly.
The above clubs made changes either new coach, or better assistants, I don;t see how we improve standing still.
How are we standing still? Ridiculous statement, no club stands still. We have made heaps of player changes, our coaching staff has changed/altered every year. All clubs try to be on the 'front foot' sometimes it pans out and sometimes it doesn't. 17 clubs got it wrong last year did they?
 

nurries

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How are we standing still? Ridiculous statement, no club stands still. We have made heaps of player changes, our coaching staff has changed/altered every year. All clubs try to be on the 'front foot' sometimes it pans out and sometimes it doesn't. 17 clubs got it wrong last year did they?
Clubs that don't improve get it wrong. How much have we really improved since last year? We are about the same in W/L as we were and I know that improvement is the main Freo "metric" but tell me if you saw that last week end or against Melbourne or against Brisbane here? We have only beaten teams in the bottom 3rd of the ladder and 1 slugfest at home against Port with 2 of their best players injured during the game. We have only been competitive away from home against a team that is bordering on one of the worst ever.

Our coaching staff changes have been vanilla at best, we have changed heaps of players some have been OK, some are just shite.

I just don't see much improvement
 

PurpleEyes

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I agree somewhat with your post. I agree that a rebuild, restump, replumb or whatever was definitely required. Probably should of started as a mini one a few years earlier but I just want to know why the whole football department was not properly reviewed at the time?

We still have the same footy ops manager, mostly the same coaches and pertinent for the highlighted part here, the same S & C people. There seems to be a real stubbornness to not look into every part of the club in order to improve. Lets just bring in new players and not change much else is like Buying a brand new $2000 Amp for your Home Theatre system and attach them to your old crap $50 speakers. Its still going to sound like shit.
But didn't Freo bring in a couple of assistant coaches with Hawthorn experience at the end of 2015 in an attempt to play more like Hawthorn ... and I would suggest we suffered because of it.
My point being, not all changes result in improvements and trying to now declare in hindsight that Freo should have reviewed things earlier when Freo won the minor premiership in 2015 is contradictory. Freo rightly acknowledged that they had a small premiership window with key players like Sandilands, Pavlich, Mundy, Johnson, McPharlin. What Freo appeared to lack was quality depth in their list to cover for injuries and aging veterans. That wasn't something they could easily resolve without a larger rebuild and playing youth ... which is what they went and did the minute Finals looked unlikely (early in 2016).

Even an argument that Freo's S&C staff have done a bad job is subjective. I haven't exactly seen any strong evidence that better staff are available and I struggle with the concept that better S&C staff would have prevented Fyfe from getting corked by Mitchell, Sandilands being kneed by Nic Nat, Harley having glass calf's, A.Pearce breaking his leg, Logue having a congenital foot problem ... Sometimes luck deals you a bad hand and you just have to do your best. Has Freo done their best ... I don't know because I'm not in the inner circle to decide, but making subjective criticisms from afar with no logical suggestions of what Freo should have done better just sounds like whinging to me.
 

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Okinakashi

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This is a club problem more than just blaming everything on one person, and as a club we need to be on the front foot.
The above clubs made changes either new coach, or better assistants, I don;t see how we improve standing still.
How is the club not on the front foot?

Since 2016 (not even 2 seasons ago) Freo has:

- Lost (delisted / retired/ traded) 25 players (13 in the 2016/7 off season and 12 in 17/18 - that's 25 out of 44 in 12 months).
- Traded for a number of experienced players
- Stared down GCS and then drafted 2 of the best 5 youngsters in the Country
- As well as bringing in David Hale, Brent Guerra, Adam Reid and Tom Morris (High Performance Coaching manager)

AND

Designed and Built the best AFL training facility in the World.

Since March 24th 2018 we've had 7 players make their AFL Debuts.

None of this is what a club who is on the back foot or is "standing still" does.

Sure it was a crappy game on the weekend and some of the decisions the club makes aren't great, or don't work out - but accusing the club of "standing still" is complete baloney.
 
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blue shark

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How are we standing still? Ridiculous statement, no club stands still. We have made heaps of player changes, our coaching staff has changed/altered every year. All clubs try to be on the 'front foot' sometimes it pans out and sometimes it doesn't. 17 clubs got it wrong last year did they?
Prior, Bond, Weber have been around the club since 2008. Tom Morris since 2016, has anybody seen or heard from him?
 

UYD 4 Life

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I think you've got to look at the arguments/criticism in context of Ross' future, not our future as a whole. Like you say if we aren't challenging in 2019/making finals in 2020 (which is actually less than what the stated ambition actually was but regardless) then he's gone. That means this year has to matter a lot more than it would comparably at a Brisbane/Carlton who started their rebuilds under their new coach. They have no real need of a specified time-line because it's a 'fresh start' and that's what they can sell to their members.

When you look at our efforts this season I'm not sure I'm seeing enough to make me confident we'll make it out of the bottom 8 or so next year (particularly if Sandi goes/doesn't play). So we might not fail in the rebuild because of course eventually even if it is 6-7 years down the track we'll make finals but I'm not sure Ross survives.
Brisbane started their rebuild under Leppitsch he turned over something like 34 players in 3 years - this would be the 5th year of their rebuild. They'll still finish below us.
 

nurries

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But didn't Freo bring in a couple of assistant coaches with Hawthorn experience at the end of 2015 in an attempt to play more like Hawthorn ... and I would suggest we suffered because of it.
My point being, not all changes result in improvements and trying to now declare in hindsight that Freo should have reviewed things earlier when Freo won the minor premiership in 2015 is contradictory. Freo rightly acknowledged that they had a small premiership window with key players like Sandilands, Pavlich, Mundy, Johnson, McPharlin. What Freo appeared to lack was quality depth in their list to cover for injuries and aging veterans. That wasn't something they could easily resolve without a larger rebuild and playing youth ... which is what they went and did the minute Finals looked unlikely (early in 2016).

Even an argument that Freo's S&C staff have done a bad job is subjective. I haven't exactly seen any strong evidence that better staff are available and I struggle with the concept that better S&C staff would have prevented Fyfe from getting corked by Mitchell, Sandilands being kneed by Nic Nat, Harley having glass calf's, A.Pearce breaking his leg, Logue having a congenital foot problem ... Sometimes luck deals you a bad hand and you just have to do your best. Has Freo done their best ... I don't know because I'm not in the inner circle to decide, but making subjective criticisms from afar with no logical suggestions of what Freo should have done better just sounds like whinging to me.
We suffered because we got Hawthorns dregs. Instead of getting in Hale or Guerra, how about Ratten, someone with experience. Do you know why? Because of experience and Ratten wouldn't be a yes man and Ross would be concerned about his job. None of the Assistant coaches we have are currently worthy of stepping in to the senior role. Do you know why? Because that's the way Ross likes it. He isn't accountable to his position because no one else here could be any better.

With the S & C staff, I agree wit what you are saying with unavoidable injuries but we have seen how long some of the rehabs have taken only to have them break down again. Like Logue and was Pearce ready to return before he broke down the 2nd time. Should Brad Hill have come back onto the ground in Round 2? There are many other examples like this over the current S & C staff time if you dig down deep enough.

A broom needs to go through the whole footy department this year (should of been 2015) not just the playing group. If its not the best you can get, then its not good enough.
 

MadDocker

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A broom needs to go through the whole footy department this year (should of been 2015) not just the playing group. If its not the best you can get, then its not good enough.
The best you can get and the best there is might not be the same thing. I think that's more likely to be our issue upgrading some of the staff.
 

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They should - will be year 6 plus they have had the advantage of a priority pick and academy selections (including harris andrews and eric hipwood)

I'd still back us in.
So you back us in based on what? The way we played them a month ago?

They also beat the Hawks away from home. Something we can only dream of doing?
 
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eastfreo75

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I expected them to get 6-8 wins this year but they only have 4. Hodge was big in 2 of those and has been a big contributor to their performance all year. They'll miss him and be lucky to get this years expectations next year.
Compare the record with Sandilands and without.

Also, the Lions has been more competitive in more games than us but with less wins and about the same percentage.
 
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Compare the record with Sandilands and without.

Also, the Lions has been more competitive in more games than us but with less wins and about the same percentage.
They had 5 last year without Hodge, they'll be lucky to meet that this year with him as a more experienced side with a #1 Pick & Charlie Cameron added on top.

"more competitive than us" What does that even mean? Are you talking about those handful of games during the first half of the season? Or that one Adelaide game a few weeks back? Those 5-6 games where they were "more competitive than us" with an older and more experienced list? The same list that scored 17 points in one game? Their injury list all year has only been Andrews & Cameron too. They should of been as competitive as us, but I don't really think they have been overall. In selective, narrow patches? Sure.

Also a team with more clearances, marks i50 / i50 entries with a functioning forward line all year has more percentage than us? Huge accomplishment in comparison right there.

Like I said, they should of been around 8 this year but will be lucky to get that next year. Our rebuilds aren't even comparable.
 
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tants

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Clubs that don't improve get it wrong. How much have we really improved since last year? We are about the same in W/L as we were and I know that improvement is the main Freo "metric" but tell me if you saw that last week end or against Melbourne or against Brisbane here? We have only beaten teams in the bottom 3rd of the ladder and 1 slugfest at home against Port with 2 of their best players injured during the game. We have only been competitive away from home against a team that is bordering on one of the worst ever.

Our coaching staff changes have been vanilla at best, we have changed heaps of players some have been OK, some are just shite.

I just don't see much improvement
Plus Adelaide and Essendon
 
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