List Mgmt. Ross the Boss

Galvo

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They do sweet **** all skills training

I've been down there since Ross's inception and he focuses on basic training drills and match sims. He doesn't spend time developing fine motor skills. I believe that's up to the player himself.

I can't compare to other coaches such as Clarkson etc because I don't view thier training.
I think Salim is saying that every time they do match sims and basic training drills they are doing skills training. My own experience is that some players skills can look a million bucks in a skills based/token pressure training environment but they quickly turn to crap as soon as pressure is applied. Match sims is a good opportunity to develop skills under pressure.

My take on what Ross said is that they’ll target more match simulation and integrated training rather than pulling players out to focus on their specific deficiencies. There’s an opportunity cost with whatever they chose to do at training and their assessment of last year concluded that they spent too much time focused on the individuals deficiencies at the cost of development with the collective.
 

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Bigger

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You can lead a whore to culture but you can't make her think.

Saying "Ross does not value skills" is not the same thing as saying "Ross rates endeavour higher than skills." Which is a more accurate way of representing it. He will cane a bloke for decision errors or for not putting in, but he rarely arcs up over skill execution errors.

Which is all well and good, but what it also translates to is someone like Paul Duffield getting excoriated for being "soft" and the value he brings to the team - elite use by foot - is kind of pushed to the side of the plate.

We're all aware of the vicious circle the wrong emphasis on skill in the skill-v-endeavour brings.

That said, we have actively been recruiting good kicks rather than grunty nuggets and at some point that will start to tip things in our favour.
 

wild side

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There is skills at training, and there is skills under pressure in a game.
Mutually exclusive to a degree.
Kicking for goal is something we haven't done well since 2013, that is an area our players can definitely improve on!
 

malpaso

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Have to possess the skill in the first place in order to train it. IMO we recruit for skill and train game plan, execution and fitness.

Isn't that handball drill where they stand around and fire it at each other a skill-based training drill? Then we do skill-based training. Saying we do *** all skills training is bullshit.
 
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I think extensive match practice is about unity and team conhesion. We have had a large injury list and have gone through a list changeover and we need to rebuild those areas. The only way to improve is game practice. Our boys need to learn how everyone plays, each other's running patterns and general gameplan etc etc.

Bulldogs, Tigers and West Coast all didn't have the most talented lists. But they were all united on and off the feild and seemed to have great synergy more than anything.
 

jedi mind tricks

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Have to possess the skill in the first place in order to train it. IMO we recruit for skill and train game plan, execution and fitness.

Isn't that handball drill where they stand around and fire it at each other a skill-based training drill? Then we do skill-based training. Saying we do *** all skills training is bullshit.
Do you watch training regularly
 

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I would think coaches would like to have players understand that any game plan is as simple as getting the ball and giving it to a player in better position for the team to be able to score, unless its your turn to kick a goal- then bloody make sure you kick it.
 

malpaso

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Do you watch training regularly
Seriously though, it's kick, handball and mark. Do you think anyone on our list cannot do those three things better than the average joe? If not they would not have been drafted in the first place by anyone.
Training is about doing these things with your teammates whilst implementing game plans and in-game scenarios, way more important than kicking the footy into a bin 20 metres away...
 

jedi mind tricks

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Seriously though, it's kick, handball and mark. Do you think anyone on our list cannot do those three things better than the average joe? If not they would not have been drafted in the first place by anyone.
Training is about doing these things with your teammates whilst implementing game plans and in-game scenarios, way more important than kicking the footy into a bin 20 metres away...
Yep we can all do that. But at afl standard?
 

malpaso

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Yep we can all do that. But at afl standard?
My point is that our players are and should be training on implementing game plans, recognizing opportunities, taking the game on, covering defensively, knowing their teammates abilities and styles etc.. The skills part is instinctive and takes over during execution. Of course they practice things like goal kicking, no one can honestly think our forwards don't practice kicking at the sticks regularly?
 

theGav56

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There are other skills, and they are related to game plan. Body positioning, bumping, third man up, manipulating your opposition, structural set ups, leading patterns, corralling, tackling, blocking. I think those things are still skills, and they would develop well in a training situation.
 

jedi mind tricks

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My point is that our players are and should be training on implementing game plans, recognizing opportunities, taking the game on, covering defensively, knowing their teammates abilities and styles etc.. The skills part is instinctive and takes over during execution. Of course they practice things like goal kicking, no one can honestly think our forwards don't practice kicking at the sticks regularly?
They practice goal kicking a little. No more than amatures. That's not what I'm referring to
 

malpaso

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There are other skills, and they are related to game plan. Body positioning, bumping, third man up, manipulating your opposition, structural set ups, leading patterns, corralling, tackling, blocking. I think those things are still skills, and they would develop well in a training situation.
I would find it hard to believe that they don't practice those things. Third man up is illegal though.. I see plenty of pics of body positioning, ruck contests (with pads) and you know they practice 'blocking' - Suban and DeBoer were experts..
 

yakka man

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Seriously though, it's kick, handball and mark. Do you think anyone on our list cannot do those three things better than the average joe? If not they would not have been drafted in the first place by anyone.
Training is about doing these things with your teammates whilst implementing game plans and in-game scenarios, way more important than kicking the footy into a bin 20 metres away...
I agree in a sense. At training we seem to do the drills necessary for the mastery of our game plan, but as our game plan is defensively based these drills don't develop high level skills that other clubs seem to possess. I haven't been to a session this pre-season yet, so I can't say if its changed, but last pre-season all the drills were slow and methodical with no fast overlap and transition happening. Most of them were focused on slowly getting the a ball from defense to the midfield, but never focused on what to do when it got to the forward line. You can't train the players too hard and IMO Ross prioritises game plan drills instead of type of drills that make footy fun and enjoyably to watch.
 

salim malik

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They practice goal kicking a little. No more than amatures. That's not what I'm referring to
They train 5 days a week ,what do you think they do when watchers eyes arent on them. Would they be doing weights, lectures and skill training ?. Also what constitutes your idea of skill training?
 

Scham

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You can lead a whore to culture but you can't make her think.

Saying "Ross does not value skills" is not the same thing as saying "Ross rates endeavour higher than skills." Which is a more accurate way of representing it. He will cane a bloke for decision errors or for not putting in, but he rarely arcs up over skill execution errors.

Which is all well and good, but what it also translates to is someone like Paul Duffield getting excoriated for being "soft" and the value he brings to the team - elite use by foot - is kind of pushed to the side of the plate.

We're all aware of the vicious circle the wrong emphasis on skill in the skill-v-endeavour brings.

That said, we have actively been recruiting good kicks rather than grunty nuggets and at some point that will start to tip things in our favour.
It’ll improve the situation yes, but will it ensure we’re up with the rest of the comp who are not only also drafting players with skills, but training them to improve and/or polish their skills. That’s the issue.
 

Scham

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I agree in a sense. At training we seem to do the drills necessary for the mastery of our game plan, but as our game plan is defensively based these drills don't develop high level skills that other clubs seem to possess. I haven't been to a session this pre-season yet, so I can't say if its changed, but last pre-season all the drills were slow and methodical with no fast overlap and transition happening. Most of them were focused on slowly getting the a ball from defense to the midfield, but never focused on what to do when it got to the forward line. You can't train the players too hard and IMO Ross prioritises game plan drills instead of type of drills that make footy fun and enjoyably to watch.
The sessions I went to last preseason saw good forward play mostly, with Matera in particular deep forward and crumbing. Unfortunately once the season proper started our play didn’t bare any resemblance to our training.

The one forward line exercise I didn’t like seeing last year was the kick long to a contest at the top of the square with the marking target deliberately not marking and instead knocking the ball to ground for the crumbers. This was done a lot, and again was totally useless once the season started as our smalls were usually no where to be seen when the crumbs were created and the opposition just cleared easily. It also doesn’t allow the marking forward to practice his marking!!! I hope that is missing this year!
 

salim malik

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It’ll improve the situation yes, but will it ensure we’re up with the rest of the comp who are not only also drafting players with skills, but training them to improve and/or polish their skills. That’s the issue.


Explain what the rest of the comp does that Freo dont do re skills? There is a lot of noise on here about this supposed lack of skills training but nobody seems to know what exactly skills training is. Should they practice handballing at a bullseye target or kick 50 metres into a drum 6 hours a day. To know exactly what Freo do to improve all facets of whats needed to be an AFL player you would need to be at the club 8 hours a day 5 days a week .
 

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Funny thing about this whole debate is that there was a very specific article last season about things we were doing to improve our skills -


Fremantle coach Ross Lyon has revealed that the Dockers reached out to the Perth Wildcats and coach Trevor Gleeson in an off-season bid to bolster their skills program and speed up their ball movement.

The radical idea, which echoes a similar move by Hawthorn who used Gleeson ahead of their 2013 premiership campaign, was initiated by assistant coach Brent Guerra who was at the Hawks then.

He also called for time to carry out his list rebuild and expressed confidence that he was coaching as well as ever.

The ball-handling program is part of a fresh direction taken by Lyon to give his assistants a greater role in the planning and running of the club’s training programs.

Forward Hayden Ballantyne said this week that the top-up skills sessions were now a part of every training session at Fremantle.

“It has been a huge focus,” Ballantyne said. “We do 15 to 20 minutes every day of just pure ball-handling skills. .It is really paying off with touch and one-touch pick-ups and stuff like that It is clearly making a difference with our touch.”

Lyon said the aim of the program was to lift the skill level of his team and reduce turnovers, a problem for the Dockers in their plunge down the ladder in 2016 and 2017.

“At the initiative of Brent Guerra we put together a ball-handling program. We went up to the Wildcats, saw Trevor Gleeson and their ball-handling program. We took their patent,” he said.

“It gave us some guides to introduce a ball-handling program X amount of times per week. Specialisation, the fundamentals. In our warm-ups we introduced extra ball handling.”
Key takeaways -
  1. we have a skills program
  2. we review our programs and look for ways to improve
  3. we focus on specialisations and fundamentals

So for anyone arguing that we don't do skills training - here you go
 
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