List Mgmt. Ross the Boss

Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Posts
2,562
Likes
3,519
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Vancouver Canucks
This is another great example of how the Lyon haters just love any narrative that suits their anti-lyon agenda ... fact or fiction doesn't matter.

Dixon's article would have been almost believable if not for the fact that only 2 of Freo's 16 goals against GWS came from movement through the corridor;
Goal 1 by Hogan which started from a turnover in Freo's Half Back when GWS tried to centre it and it resulted in a quick turnover and transition by Freo.
& Goal 15 again by Hogan which came from a Centre Clearance that Fyfe won and Mundy provided the inside 50.
That was my recollection as well, thanks for checking.

I'm all for criticism of Lyon in aspects where I think he's obviously deficient but it would be nice if criticism was actually grounded in reality and not just completely made up.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Joined
Sep 25, 2018
Posts
285
Likes
517
AFL Club
Fremantle
I am a little bit paranoid too, because in the second half of 2015 everyone was suggesting Barlow should be used be used in the guts, and Ross would not do it.
I'm not sure about paranoid, maybe just improbable.

It's hard to reconcile that level of irrationality allowing someone to steer teams across two different clubs to 3 or 4 GFs. It's also hard to see that level of ego-centrism inspiring the high regard that so many players hold Lyon in for mentoring and being there for them.

You'd also think that level of near sociopathic self-centeredness would mean that he'd never admit he's wrong and take credit for everything that goes right, which doesn't tee up to Lyon's public statements.

That sort of joining the dots does reek of filling in the blanks with a preconceived story, when outside the club we're not privy to all the information that they would have as a footy department and as coach.
 
Joined
Apr 27, 2014
Posts
1,671
Likes
2,270
AFL Club
Fremantle
Meh bit of an overreaction by Dixon there. I reckon North/GWS haven't exactly been known for playing the defensive side of the game well so of course we're going to be able to execute our gameplan better against those teams. GWS seem to have a propensity to just give the opposing team free reign to do whatever they want (see the Hawthorn drubbing).

If by seasons end we're still only executing the game-plan well 2/8 games then maybe it's a valid talking point.
 
Joined
Sep 10, 2015
Posts
2,495
Likes
6,968
AFL Club
Fremantle
I mean all you need to know about the Dixon article is ******** that we struggled to kick 60 points. I'm assuming he's doing that off average, which is a completely ridiculous way to look at 3 games where we scored over 80 twice, then, in a defensive shitfight, had our lowest game of the year.

Its just a really poor look at whats happened without any actual stats or analysis to back it up other than 'feel', which, as Purpleeyes pointed again, is completely false.

Personally I think we have two massive problems at the moment
a) Pressure cripples more than any other team where skills become disgusting under good pressure. I dont have stats to back this up other than watching the game where our worst skilled games (without factors such as dew) were GC, St Kilda and Tigers who all applied terrific pressure. This is 50% on Ross, 50% on need more games as a team to gel and for younger players to mature.
b) We are offensively crippled when teams play a man behind the ball. I think this is a result of the move it long at all costs mantra where we get the ball and rarely have the ability to settle and look for a leading target, or, there is no one leading to the right spots so we bomb it long. We bomb it long way way too much. We also then have every Dockers player in the vincinty go up for the mark which is infuriating. This is 90% structure thing and 10% crumbling under pressure. This is 100% on Ross and Hale to fix and I think it needs to be fixed before the end of the year personnelly
 

Joao

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
May 2, 2017
Posts
6,341
Likes
8,757
Location
QLD
AFL Club
Fremantle
I mean all you need to know about the Dixon article is ******** that we struggled to kick 60 points. I'm assuming he's doing that off average, which is a completely ridiculous way to look at 3 games where we scored over 80 twice, then, in a defensive shitfight, had our lowest game of the year.

Its just a really poor look at whats happened without any actual stats or analysis to back it up other than 'feel', which, as Purpleeyes pointed again, is completely false.

Personally I think we have two massive problems at the moment
a) Pressure cripples more than any other team where skills become disgusting under good pressure. I dont have stats to back this up other than watching the game where our worst skilled games (without factors such as dew) were GC, St Kilda and Tigers who all applied terrific pressure. This is 50% on Ross, 50% on need more games as a team to gel and for younger players to mature.
b) We are offensively crippled when teams play a man behind the ball. I think this is a result of the move it long at all costs mantra where we get the ball and rarely have the ability to settle and look for a leading target, or, there is no one leading to the right spots so we bomb it long. We bomb it long way way too much. We also then have every Dockers player in the vincinty go up for the mark which is infuriating. This is 90% structure thing and 10% crumbling under pressure. This is 100% on Ross and Hale to fix and I think it needs to be fixed before the end of the year personnelly
a) applies to all teams and we are by no means the worst. Objectively I would say we are middle of the road on this. North is putrid and the Pies and Cats seem to cope the best.

b) agree and think this is largely due to ignoring the correct option when entering the f50. If they have a spare then someone is free, we just suck at find them. Ross constantly bangs on about it pressers but because I don't watch games live it is hard to tell if that is the truth. It definitely happened at the GC game I was at at least a few times. Would improve out of sight if you added a couple of extra good decision makers/ball users into the team.
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2016
Posts
1,102
Likes
2,569
AFL Club
Fremantle
No I just think that its harder for Ross to stay the course and to keep attacking when the conditions aren't ideal for it.

You really believe the dna/identity of our team at the moment is a take them on, attacking brand of footy?

Theres been hints of it but i stand by the idea that the last two games have moved us away from this.

I hope this week isn't the third step in a row away from some of the early positive stuff we saw.
Mate one of the biggest reasons tigers killed us was through rebounding out of our forward 50. i.e our forwards werent playing defensive enough. Laid like three tackles in the forward 50 for the entire goddamn game. That is a lack of defence that got us not an absence of attack.


Ben Dixon seems like he doesn't know what he is talking about. Freo should copy Hawthorn? A team that has won less games and has a lower percentage then Freo.

Earlier he got really mad at Wayne Carey for criticising Hawthorn's style of play this year...think he is just a fanboy lol.
 
Last edited:

tants

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
Posts
5,633
Likes
6,430
AFL Club
Fremantle
To my eye footy reporters pick stats that suit their argument and big footy posters do the same.
I agree.

Are you saying that big footy posters would have less of an agenda than footy writers?
Yes. A footy writer isn't a footy writer for long if they don't get lots of clicks. Writing a well-researched, thoughtful article takes a lot more time than drumming out a well trotted out line that Freo play too defensive.

Theres no real analysis thats done on each side.
Take the stats and thought that Purple Eyes puts into his posts. They are much better researched (to suit his/her agenda) than that Dixon article that contains no substance. As I said, I doubt Dixon has even watched our games.
You don't look at the analysis that PE and others have done because it goes against your cognitive biases, it doesn't change that the research was done.
 
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Posts
35,814
Likes
35,837
Location
Perth
AFL Club
Fremantle
Moderator #9,933
There is also an element of validation/confirmation bias to it. You're far more likely to click and read something that you agree with than one that challenges you on your established reality, at least within your own mind.
 
Joined
Dec 9, 2018
Posts
185
Likes
445
AFL Club
Fremantle
Mate one of the biggest reasons tigers killed us was through rebounding out of our forward 50. i.e our forwards werent playing defensive enough. Laid like three tackles in the forward 50 for the entire goddamn game. That is a lack of defence that got us not an absence of attack.

.
You are aware you can't tackle players that have a free kick? Very difficult to lay tackles when we kick it to the opposition defenders. Not many of those rebounds were contested ground balls. They were woeful kick ins that favoured the defender. There's nothing the forwards can do about that.
 
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Posts
2,616
Likes
1,698
Location
perth
AFL Club
Fremantle
You are aware you can't tackle players that have a free kick? Very difficult to lay tackles when we kick it to the opposition defenders. Not many of those rebounds were contested ground balls. They were woeful kick ins that favoured the defender. There's nothing the forwards can do about that.
Absolutely, Dixon has a point in how Clarkson can create chemistry keep the scoreboard pressure ticking over.
But they also do the 1 percenters well and score with half chances.
He is half right? We need better running patterns, seperation to create scoring chances. Simpson is another protege who from
defence his team attacks.
We can win contested, stoppages, inside 50's, ruck and still lose. Other clubs retain the ball, control, we can't win it back.
Too many drawn into the contest, and smashed on the outside.
Our half court defence is very good, we just nead to clean up our attacking patterns, uncontested ball work.
The transition from defence to attack could be so much better with an assistant who himself was a smart user, thinker.
 
Joined
Sep 25, 2018
Posts
285
Likes
517
AFL Club
Fremantle
Dixon's premise though was that Lyon had abandoned a game plan (that they went all the way to the Gold Coast to really improve their understanding and buy-in as a group for) right after seeing it be successful against GWS.... :think:

Riiiight....

Seriously, does anyone really buy that? Given they've got the players right on board with it, fully educated them in it, only to abandon it in those circumstances, they'd be thinking WTF surely. How could he explain that to them?

Further, given the premise is that Lyon's supposed stubbornness is behind it, it was his plan (or at the very least one he'd committed enough to to take them to the Gold Coast), does it make any sense at all that he would cave on it so early? Especially as it had just born such spectacular fruit.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

raffrox

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Sep 4, 2004
Posts
8,536
Likes
4,597
Location
Perth
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Fremantle
I agree.


Yes. A footy writer isn't a footy writer for long if they don't get lots of clicks. Writing a well-researched, thoughtful article takes a lot more time than drumming out a well trotted out line that Freo play too defensive.



Take the stats and thought that Purple Eyes puts into his posts. They are much better researched (to suit his/her agenda) than that Dixon article that contains no substance. As I said, I doubt Dixon has even watched our games.
You don't look at the analysis that PE and others have done because it goes against your cognitive biases, it doesn't change that the research was done.
PE has used stats that shows we arent due to compete for another 2-3 years after this year.

Hows that not supporting his/her cognitive bias'?

Small groups of passionate people discussing topics in an insular fashion is how flat earthers became a thing.

If you think objectivity and the Fremantle Big Footy board can safely be in the same sentence then I really dont know what to say. The difference is I don't pretend my opinions are facts by using selective stats.
 

raffrox

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Sep 4, 2004
Posts
8,536
Likes
4,597
Location
Perth
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Fremantle
There is also an element of validation/confirmation bias to it. You're far more likely to click and read something that you agree with than one that challenges you on your established reality, at least within your own mind.
Looking at the Media thread here it might be the opposite for some Freo supporters.
 
Joined
Sep 25, 2018
Posts
285
Likes
517
AFL Club
Fremantle
PE has used stats that shows we arent due to compete for another 2-3 years after this year.

Hows that not supporting his/her cognitive bias'?

Small groups of passionate people discussing topics in an insular fashion is how flat earthers became a thing.

If you think objectivity and the Fremantle Big Footy board can safely be in the same sentence then I really dont know what to say. The difference is I don't pretend my opinions are facts by using selective stats.
So you're really going with that blanket statement, that there's no possibility of objectivity because it's typed into this forum?? So if I type 2 + 2 = 4, because it's written here it can't be objective?

It's what's written and what observable evidence it has that constitutes its objectivity level. Who wrote it or where really only counts if you have built up a level of trust in a person or information source.
You just described Big Footy in a nut shell.
That's such a disingenuous cherry-picking post. Me thinks you may be trying to back away from the Dixon article.
 

raffrox

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Sep 4, 2004
Posts
8,536
Likes
4,597
Location
Perth
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Fremantle
So you're really going with that blanket statement, that there's no possibility of objectivity because it's typed into this forum?? So if I type 2 + 2 = 4, because it's written here it can't be objective?

It's what's written and what observable evidence it has that constitutes its objectivity level. Who wrote it or where really only counts if you have built up a level of trust in a person or information source.

That's such a disingenuous cherry-picking post. Me thinks you may be trying to back away from the Dixon article.
Feel free to relax. I posted the Dixon article but I'm yet to get the tattoo. I think you over estimate my commitment to Ben Dixon. Im happy to be shown contrary opinions and information. I thought Snuffs post on it made sense. Thats why i liked it.

If the fountain of wisdom from stat laden big footy posts are so accurate then the posts of certain posters should have changed over the years. Where is the "hey maybe we are not on the right track" statements?

Youre not suspicious that the 'stats' always show us on the right track and yet we've had 15 of 24 years where we have lost more than half our games.

Wheres the stats showing where we need to improve?

So pardon my lack of faith.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Sep 25, 2018
Posts
285
Likes
517
AFL Club
Fremantle
Feel free to relax. I posted the Dixon article but I'm yet to get the tattoo. I think you over estimate my commitment to Ben Dixon. Im happy to be shown contrary opinions and information. I thought Snuffs post on it made sense. Thats why i liked it.

If the fountain of wisdom from stat laden big footy posts are so accurate then the posts of certain posters should have changed over the years. Where is the "hey maybe we are not on the right track" statements?

Youre not suspicious that the 'stats' always show us on the right track and yet we've had 15 of 24 years where we have lost more than half our games.

Wheres the stats showing where we need to improve?

So pardon my lack of faith.
What's indicating I'm not relaxed?

I treat each stat on its merits and am perfectly comfortable with assessing their relative strengths and weaknesses on a case by case basis.

It's poor logic to summarily dismiss stats because this time or that time someone's used them incorrectly, or they haven't been absolutely perfect, or as likely we've not understood their context or what they tell us.

A classic sign of biased driven behaviour is when people go about generalising from a small set of examples to a whole population or category (i.e. a blond has stolen from me three times, all blonds steal or this stat wasn't accurate this and that time, all stats are inaccurate).
 

raffrox

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Sep 4, 2004
Posts
8,536
Likes
4,597
Location
Perth
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Fremantle
What's indicating I'm not relaxed?

I treat each stat on its merits and am perfectly comfortable with assessing their relative strengths and weaknesses on a case by case basis.
Me too, but the source of the analysis has to be taken into account. Asking Freo supporters who have a crack at people who are negative about the club in any way to do the analysis is highly unlikely to be an objective exercise. Sub consciously or otherwise theres always a reason why everything is fine with what is going on for some and I don't buy it.

A bit like asking British American Tobacco if there's any negative health effects related to smoking, or asking a coal mining company to analyse if renewable energy is worthwhile.

It's poor logic to summarily dismiss stats because this time or that time someone's used them incorrectly, or they haven't been absolutely perfect, or as likely we've not understood their context or what they tell us.
It's poor logic not to use basic critical thinking when looking at 'statistics' posted on a footy message board. Or for that matter published as part of a footy writers article. I was having a bit of fun with the Ben Dixon article. I don't think there's any real analysis in his article though. Again I've proven people just gravitate to data and stats that reinforce their opinion. At least I admit it unlike some. I do have my standards as far as what I think has enough rigour to suggest it's adding to some kind of real understanding of whats going on.

I quite like the 'squiggle' on the main board because it makes some basic assumptions and hypotheses and then uses raw data each week without fear or favouritism to rate teams. No one team agenda there either.

From a footy media perspective I've always liked this article:

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/...l/news-story/00d982ed553da77d96464b78af79ed82

I like it because I agree with it but more so because again it has used some basic assumptions and then applied the raw data without favouritism.

A classic sign of biased driven behaviour is when people go about generalising from a small set of examples to a whole population or category (i.e. a blond has stolen from me three times, all blonds steal or this stat wasn't accurate this and that time, all stats are inaccurate).
Exactly! That's why statistical analysis of a small dataset on the Fremantle Big Footy board usually doesn't do it for me.
 
Last edited:

Fred Ziffel

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Apr 26, 2011
Posts
8,998
Likes
8,958
Location
Cockburn W.A
AFL Club
Fremantle
When your midfielders don't work you don't win. Langdon, Tucker, Hill, Colyer etc... Too many passengers today all over.
It also didn't help having Taberner and Hogan contesting the mark in the goal square in the final quarter........ bigger problem was it was the fullback goal square.; Yep, Taberner and Hogan going for the mark in Richmond's goal square.
The ball came out to our half back line and buggar me if it isn't marked by Rory Lobb.
So, our Full Forward, Centre Half Forward and changing KPF Ruckman all deep in our backline. At that moment there was not one Docker in our forward half of the ground, not one.
 
Top Bottom