List Mgmt. Ross The Boss

Is Ross still the man for the job?


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Joao

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What you need to compare is your prediction if we had been missing Pearce, Lobb, Hogan and the rest.
I could probably cut us a little more slack I suppose but every team gets injuries. Having most of your spine out is not ideal, but it is also not the reason we have been so poor the last two weeks.
All of this stems from buying the rebuild line. We set the curve, so to say we’re “ahead of the curve” is to say we’re performing better than we’d thought we would. To that I say aim higher.

West Coast “rebuilt” quicker. They finished sixth and didn’t win a final in 2016. They were 12-10 in 2017 with an aging list. They went hell for leather to keep their window open with Petrie and Mitchell coming in. Old list. Trending backwards. Worse each season after their 2015 GF. It looked like they were about to enter a world of hurt.

Then last year they debuted nine new players and won a flag. They didn’t bottom out to rebuild, they didn’t gut the list. They were projected to be bottom four but didn’t set the target of “hey let’s win a few games and make sure we don’t finish bottom four”, they retooled on the fly.

The Bulldogs won a flag in the second year of their new coach. Sydney won a flag in the second year of their new coach. The Eagles made a Grand final in the second year of their new coach. Adelaide made the Grand Final in their second year of a new coach. Melbourne made a prelim in the second year of their new coach. Brisbane are sitting top four in the third year of their new coach.

We decide the direction our list goes, nobody inherits the 2019 Fremantle list and says ok in a vacuum how many games should this squad win. We decided to go down the complete rebuild road, we sold it to the fans that this is a necessary pain, when it has been proven by Sydney and Hawthorn and West Coast and Geelong that it isn’t. So sure, we might be “ahead of the curve” (I don’t think we are, but let’s go with it), but never forget we are in complete control of the curve. The club decides every facet of their future, don’t buy this hard luck story about oh gee we’re a young rebuilding side. We’re rebuilding because it was decided we’d rebuild, and three and a half years later here we are, circle jerking over the prospect of maybe winning not quite half of our games.
I think West Coast list management is good, but they haven't rebuilt ****. Their spine and best players (bar maybe Yeo and Darling) are all very mature. They didn't have to replace all their KPP players.

Stop just arbitrarily picking other teams and saying "why didn't we do what they did"? It's lazy. Compare our spine in 2016 to West Coasts last year. Do you think it is comparable? Of course not, so why would you advocate the same list management model as them (or Hawks or Cats). Every team is different. You can't just complain because you think we should be better and should have done the same as some other team. It's daft, we have a completely different list to them.

Your post isn't analysis. It's just BF rhetoric. There are literally dozens of posts just like it, and all of them completely devoid or any meaningful thought.
 

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raffrox

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I could probably cut us a little more slack I suppose but every team gets injuries. Having most of your spine out is not ideal, but it is also not the reason we have been so poor the last two weeks.

I think West Coast list management is good, but they haven't rebuilt ****. Their spine and best players (bar maybe Yeo and Darling) are all very mature. They didn't have to replace all their KPP players.

Stop just arbitrarily picking other teams and saying "why didn't we do what they did"? It's lazy. Compare our spine in 2016 to West Coasts last year. Do you think it is comparable? Of course not, so why would you advocate the same list management model as them (or Hawks or Cats). Every team is different. You can't just complain because you think we should be better and should have done the same as some other team. It's daft, we have a completely different list to them.

Your post isn't analysis. It's just BF rhetoric. There are literally dozens of posts just like it, and all of them completely devoid or any meaningful thought.
And when things get a bit too close to the uncomfortable truth for some there's nothing left to say but to label someone else's opinion as "completely devoid of any meaningful thought."
 
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Caldera

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Joao - I’m not being a smartarse, but how long have you been a Freo supporter? You are right, it’s wrong to compare lists for a given point in time - but Freo have been a poor club at maintaining strength and depth in its list over its history. This contrasts to other clubs that do not bottom out like we have for the last 4 seasons, or the previous times in our history. So while we can’t compare lists, I thinks it’s fair to compare track records.
 

Caldera

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Joao - I’m not being a smartarse, but how long have you been a Freo supporter? You are right, it’s wrong to compare lists for a given point in time - but Freo have been a poor club at maintaining strength and depth in its list over its history. This contrasts to other clubs that do not bottom out like we have for the last 4 seasons, or the previous times in our history. So while we can’t compare lists, I thinks it’s fair to compare track records.
 

Caldera

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Joao - I’m not being a smartarse, but how long have you been a Freo supporter? You are right, it’s wrong to compare lists for a given point in time - but Freo have been a poor club at maintaining strength and depth in its list over its history. This contrasts to other clubs that do not bottom out like we have for the last 4 seasons, or the previous times in our history. So while we can’t compare lists, I thinks it’s fair to compare track records.
 

Joao

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Joao - I’m not being a smartarse, but how long have you been a Freo supporter? You are right, it’s wrong to compare lists for a given point in time - but Freo have been a poor club at maintaining strength and depth in its list over its history. This contrasts to other clubs that do not bottom out like we have for the last 4 seasons, or the previous times in our history. So while we can’t compare lists, I thinks it’s fair to compare track records.
I was there supporting Freo at the very first Derby. Even got on the news as they picked me out as a Freo supporter to be in shot with 3 or 4 Eagles supporters.

I know everyone likes to bang on about 25 years but most of that history is irrelevant and definitely should not be used in current decision making. No amount of complaining how you'd like to have done better in the past makes you current spud players any better. If you need to turn over the list, you need to turn over the list.

You play the hand that is in front of you. The hand in front of us in 2016 was basically a half dozen good players under 26, a quality old spine and a bunch of role players (whom are now all gone). We needed to replace basically everyone bar the younger good players. I actually think most here completely under-appreciate how quickly we did it (mainly through traded players), although I still think we are 1, maybe 2 drafts short.
 

hoss

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Really good post.
The key word in this post is development. The development dept/program at Freo is as poor as it comes. Not only draft recruits, but players from other clubs recruited in. Hardly any of those recruits have got better coming into the club where others leave & flourish.

Brayshaw, Cerra, Crowden, Darcy, Banfield & others have not shown any improvement at all from last year & then take McCarthy, Kersten & to a lesser extent Wilson & Colyer have not offered anything further than what they did at other clubs. Which for Colyer & Kersten was bugger all.

There is far too much reliance on the older players, with that proven with the inclusion of an underdone Sandilands & the dropping of Crowden instead of the likes of Colyer. Why Ballantyne was kept on this season is beyond a joke as there was another 4 small forwards ready to go.

This was obviously the call from all Saints supporters when Lyon was brought across & there is little evidence to prove this wrong. He just doesn’t trust the young players & it appears they can feel it & are lacking confidence at this level.

I strongly believe that this lack of development includes his assistant coaches. The great coaches of the last 15 years have developed great assistants who have gone on to coach their own teams. This is the difference between great coaches like Clarkson & Roos compared to Lyon.

Most of Lyons assistants have moved on in silence because there were issues between coach & assistant.

How can this be good for team harmony? He is arrogant, pig headed & verging on a charlatan, in particular his various pressers this week where his arrogance has reached a new high.

Any thoughts? Harsh/fair?
Some fair,some a bit tough I think. For me, Brayshaw has improved. Think Lobb, Matera and arguably BHill and Hamling have been better at Freo than their previous clubs. Wilson, Conca much the same. Development of Ryan, Pearce, Blakeley, Langdon has been ok to good. Obviously several of the guys like Darcy, Tabs, Logue, Hogan, Cox have had injuries which has limited their development.

On Pixel 2 using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

Caldera

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I know everyone likes to bang on about 25 years but most of that history is irrelevant and definitely should not be used in current decision making. No amount of complaining how you'd like to have done better in the past makes you current spud players any better. If you need to turn over the list, you need to turn over the list.
Of course you play the hand that is in front of you - there is no other choice. But football is not poker, as each club gets to pick their hand.

I’m under no illusion, my thoughts have zero impact on what the club does in the future. But I would argue that history is not irrelevant. It’s not irrelevant for any club - it brings expectation at best, increased pressure at worst. And due to Freo’s history, that pressure is amplified for some fans and the media. For sure that pressure extends to the Freo board and footy dept. It’s up to them to defy that, back themselves to do what they believe is best for the club and let the cards fall where they may. But within the next 12mths they have to show their hand.

Derby 1. Now that was ugly.
 

Johnny Dalmas

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I was there supporting Freo at the very first Derby. Even got on the news as they picked me out as a Freo supporter to be in shot with 3 or 4 Eagles supporters.

I know everyone likes to bang on about 25 years but most of that history is irrelevant and definitely should not be used in current decision making. No amount of complaining how you'd like to have done better in the past makes you current spud players any better. If you need to turn over the list, you need to turn over the list.

You play the hand that is in front of you. The hand in front of us in 2016 was basically a half dozen good players under 26, a quality old spine and a bunch of role players (whom are now all gone). We needed to replace basically everyone bar the younger good players. I actually think most here completely under-appreciate how quickly we did it (mainly through traded players), although I still think we are 1, maybe 2 drafts short.
And if (if) our list was in such bad shape in 2016, whose fault was that? It could only be the fault of the Freo Football department.

Lists don't get bad magically over a summer, they get bad one poor recruiting decision at a time over many years.
 

tants

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And if (if) our list was in such bad shape in 2016, whose fault was that? It could only be the fault of the Freo Football department.

Lists don't get bad magically over a summer, they get bad one poor recruiting decision at a time over many years.
Is that Ross' fault? Or the fault of the now departed Lloyd and Bond?
 

Freomaniac

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Joao - I’m not being a smartarse, but how long have you been a Freo supporter? You are right, it’s wrong to compare lists for a given point in time - but Freo have been a poor club at maintaining strength and depth in its list over its history. This contrasts to other clubs that do not bottom out like we have for the last 4 seasons, or the previous times in our history. So while we can’t compare lists, I thinks it’s fair to compare track records.
Me personally? I have been a dockers fan since late 2001/ early 2002.

I know its sometimes wrong to compare lists over the years.

However..... Its interesting comparing the 2007-9 rebuild to the 2016-current rebuild.

Again..... how do you define an Ageing squad? People had their opinions I mean we had 6 blokes aged 30 or over in our list last year. Sandilands, Spurr, Michael Johnson, Danyle Pearce, Mundy and Ballantyne. 3 of those blokes retired last year. Plus a lot of taled blokes aged 23 or under are getting games.

Meanwhile back in 2008, freo had the oldest list in the AFL at like 25 years. It was that old that only 6-7 players of our whole list was aged 23 or under: Rhys Palmer, Clayton Hinkley, Chris Mayne, Marcus drum, Garrick Ibbotson, Rob Warnock and my personal favourite, Brock "Lesnar" O brien.

you can partially contribute that to trading picks for players around that 2000-2006 period such as trading picks 3 and 19 for des headland in 2002 and picks 11, 27 and 45 for Josh carr in 2004.

I dont mind freos trading of 1st round picks since 2015. At least you dont trade the farm.

The Harley Bennell Trade(s) was a good example. Trade picks 16 and 35 for bennell and pick 22. get 35 back and get pick 55, we traded our 2016 2nd rounder (which sadly was 21) and 61. So along with Bennell we had picks 22 (Darcy tucker), 35 (Harley Balic) and 55 (Sam Collins). Hardly a trade the future for one player trade.

Yet the next year we traded pick 3 for Cam McCarthy pick 8 (Logue), pick 32 (Sean Darcy) ad 72 (Luke Ryan). Again, traded a 1st rounder for a few picks.

Hell I didnt mind trading pick 5 and our 2019 3rd rounder for picks 11, 23, 30 and 49. Then traded pick 11 and 23 for pick 14 and rory lobb. Again, we stretched our top 5 pick again.


you can debate on what you define an Ageing squad. Whether its a lot of 30 year olds on the list or lack of young talent aged 23 or under coming through or both.
 

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Freomaniac

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And if (if) our list was in such bad shape in 2016, whose fault was that? It could only be the fault of the Freo Football department.

Lists don't get bad magically over a summer, they get bad one poor recruiting decision at a time over many years.
I reckon our way of trading 1st round picks have been good
 

Johnny Dalmas

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"immaterial" ... really?
Western Bulldogs won a premiership in 2016 ranked 12th for offense. I could easily say that makes your post immaterial ... but I'm not that ignorant.
So you missed the bit where I said : "You don't have to have the most potent offense to be an effective team; especially in our current era which places such a premium on defence. The is self-evident from our best on-field season occurring when we were only ranked 12th for scoring. "

As you can see (if you bothered to actually absorb what you were reading) I am quite aware that low scoring teams can be effective. That's not the point. The points is:

- that our offense has been below average since 2012 (with the one exception of 2014)
- that our coaching group has previously indicated that scoring is an issue that will try to rectify and yet whatever it is our Footy Department has done, the trend hasn't been reversed (up until the end of 2018--this season is a work in progress)
- that our offensive performance last week can't simply be blamed on injuries to personnel but is part of a chronic problem we have with our offense (I don't say "forward line" because its not simply about the six players lining up forward of the centre. Its also about midfield running patterns, decision-making off half-back, execution with the ball in hand, etc)
 

Johnny Dalmas

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Is that Ross' fault? Or the fault of the now departed Lloyd and Bond?
Oh no, its not one person's fault. This is a problem for the whole Football Department.

I think our recruiting has got better but we some made some bad fumbles earlier in the decade that have cost us badly.

I reckon any responsibility for "big" on field performance issues needs to be shared by all the senior Footy Operations people. I don't think the Football Department is a dictatorship nor that people like Bond or Lloyd and now Bell were/are quiet wallflowers under the thrall of the senior coach.
 

awaremind

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Ill just say it was damn obvious we were going to fall off a cliff with our aging key position players, as far back as 2014 it should have been absolutely top priority to transition to a new generation, but that was put off, for several mediocre seasons, in which we ran out of legs at the end of the year (sound familiar?). Our skills also have been our weakness for some years too. Now this cant be all on Ross but the buck has to stop with him. The lack of effort or energy in the last two or even three games is the most disturbing though, it really looks like some players are not coping with the level or perhaps lacking motivation. Now we never do well in tasie so its hard to say how much of sn indicator this game will be ,but a limp game at home vs Sydney would be woeful, and the pressure should come on if we cant fire up.
 

Vimal Anand

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And if (if) our list was in such bad shape in 2016, whose fault was that? It could only be the fault of the Freo Football department.

Lists don't get bad magically over a summer, they get bad one poor recruiting decision at a time over many years.
Our first round picks from 20009 to 2015 failed one way or other.... That is 7 picks....
 

kingswood71

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All of this stems from buying the rebuild line. We set the curve, so to say we’re “ahead of the curve” is to say we’re performing better than we’d thought we would. To that I say aim higher.

West Coast “rebuilt” quicker. They finished sixth and didn’t win a final in 2016. They were 12-10 in 2017 with an aging list. They went hell for leather to keep their window open with Petrie and Mitchell coming in. Old list. Trending backwards. Worse each season after their 2015 GF. It looked like they were about to enter a world of hurt.

Then last year they debuted nine new players and won a flag. They didn’t bottom out to rebuild, they didn’t gut the list. They were projected to be bottom four but didn’t set the target of “hey let’s win a few games and make sure we don’t finish bottom four”, they retooled on the fly.

The Bulldogs won a flag in the second year of their new coach. Sydney won a flag in the second year of their new coach. The Eagles made a Grand final in the second year of their new coach. Adelaide made the Grand Final in their second year of a new coach. Melbourne made a prelim in the second year of their new coach. Brisbane are sitting top four in the third year of their new coach.

We decide the direction our list goes, nobody inherits the 2019 Fremantle list and says ok in a vacuum how many games should this squad win. We decided to go down the complete rebuild road, we sold it to the fans that this is a necessary pain, when it has been proven by Sydney and Hawthorn and West Coast and Geelong that it isn’t. So sure, we might be “ahead of the curve” (I don’t think we are, but let’s go with it), but never forget we are in complete control of the curve. The club decides every facet of their future, don’t buy this hard luck story about oh gee we’re a young rebuilding side. We’re rebuilding because it was decided we’d rebuild, and three and a half years later here we are, circle jerking over the prospect of maybe winning not quite half of our games.
Can you do us a hypothetical 2019 Freo team based on the players from 2016, who we should have kept so we could have "re-tooled on the fly" around them?
 

kingswood71

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The Bulldogs won a flag in the second year of their new coach. Sydney won a flag in the second year of their new coach. The Eagles made a Grand final in the second year of their new coach. Adelaide made the Grand Final in their second year of a new coach. Melbourne made a prelim in the second year of their new coach. Brisbane are sitting top four in the third year of their new coach.
You left out "Fremantle made a grand final in the second year of their new coach".....
 

Kapow!!!

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Weirdly I'm having an understandable cognitive dissonance with Ross at the moment. I think he needs to go or at least have a significant overhaul of the line coaches and we need a new or at least severely tweaked game plan. But I think we need him to stay for the short term.

I don't think he has a bad rapport with the players and with the extreme volatility of the supporter base and the outside pressure being applied I think we actually need some stability at the moment in order to both hold on to players as well as keep the club somewhat together. Historically we generally go to s**t in moments of hostility, most clubs do. The only way clubs turn it around is either by standing firm with their vision under much scrutiny (see Collingwood, Richmond, Geelong and Hawthorn) or by making any transition as smooth and meticulously thought out as possible (see West Coast).

At the moment, with the critical injuries we have in key areas as well as the lack of on-ball firepower, I'm thinking we were destined to fail and it's not like we're doing nothing. So I've developed a morbid, detached nihilism in which I just find the hysteria on both sides of the argument quite amusing. The emotions of footy fans in this age of online outrage is pretty bloody funny.
 

tants

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Clearly all 3.
Our first round picks from 20009 to 2015 failed one way or other.... That is 7 picks....
As Vimal points out the first round draft failures are the issue. You can't blame Ross for 2009 to 2011, IMO I don't think the rest are either. However, those failures to have 7 first grade talented players in the team is why we were always going to fall off the cliff.
 

Scham

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As Vimal points out the first round draft failures are the issue. You can't blame Ross for 2009 to 2011, IMO I don't think the rest are either. However, those failures to have 7 first grade talented players in the team is why we were always going to fall off the cliff.
So you think Ross is totally absolved from any responsibility and it was purely down to Lloyd and his team?
 

kingswood71

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So you think Ross is totally absolved from any responsibility and it was purely down to Lloyd and his team?
Short answer, yep :)
Long Answer: Ross is not the head of recruitment. The fact that our first round picks from 2009 to 2015 were either injury prone or left is hardly his fault: Morabito, Pitt (who?), Sheridan, Simpson, Apeness, Weller, Tucker.....So: injury prone, dunno who he even is, Better sunglasses than footballer, Could have been anything if he was willing and committed, Injury prone, Left for home, still playing (although half think he shouldnt be!)....
So explain how Ross stuffed that up????
 
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