List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

[go_the_dockers]

I would like to see us try to score more.

If we score 100 points, I could cope with losing by 40 points.

I do not believe we will improve the rest of the year, especially with the key players sore or injured, and the rest not good enough.

Tucker needs a rest, he only played 60% game time this week. I would imagine 4 or 5 other players would be the same if not more. Hopefully next year we can start well and prepare for a big 2019

 

[M_rash]

When Ross signed his extension, he said he would deliver our first premiership. No excuses not to. We're a fully resourced club yada yada yada.

Then we hear of our 4 year rebuild. Is this 4yr rebuild supposedly taking us to the flag? Or just to start contending? Because there appears to be a possible bust in logic.

Either our 4 yr plan has identified additional free agents and trade targets (like last trade period) to bring in this off season, or the club is very bullshit on our current kids to step up very quickly and be contending 2019/20.

Very interesting. What if we're only just contending by 2020 but no flag? Bye bye Ross? Plenty of water to pass under the bridge but will be interesting to watch it unfold. After Fyfe signed on, I think Ross eluded that he would like to still be around for that same time period - of course he's gotta say that.

Anyway, no point speculating about Ross' contract, but heaps keen for the upcoming trade period and what surprises the club has installed for us!

 

[Big Animal]

When Ross signed his extension, he said he would deliver our first premiership. No excuses not to. We're a fully resourced club yada yada yada.

Then we hear of our 4 year rebuild. Is this 4yr rebuild supposedly taking us to the flag? Or just to start contending? Because there appears to be a possible bust in logic.

Either our 4 yr plan has identified additional free agents and trade targets (like last trade period) to bring in this off season, or the club is very bullshit on our current kids to step up very quickly and be contending 2019/20.

Very interesting. What if we're only just contending by 2020 but no flag? Bye bye Ross? Plenty of water to pass under the bridge but will be interesting to watch it unfold. After Fyfe signed on, I think Ross eluded that he would like to still be around for that same time period - of course he's gotta say that.

Anyway, no point speculating about Ross' contract, but heaps keen for the upcoming trade period and what surprises the club has installed for us!

I hear you but not too fussed. So RTB leaves at the end of his contract. At least we will be left with a team of good (mainly WA) players, well drilled in defense, with a large core of players around the right age to be challenging, and with a new coach that probably takes offense seriously. That's not a bad place to be. That's better than a few aged stars and a troop of foot soldiers if he'd left after 2015/sacked during 2016.

 

[maccamk]

lets offer longmuir a mega deal as an assistant. Ran WC forward line for 6 years and would learn a hell of a lot more from Ross than he would from Spudsom

 

[Patty_Moz]

I just don't think RTB's defensive style is good enough to ever win a flag. He still has the same gameplan from Sydney circa 2005 and that is the only time it has won a premiership.

RTB's own standards were top 4 defensively and offensively and the table below shows he has never been able to achieve that in his time at Freo. In 6 years we have only been top 8 for scoring once and that is during a very successful period for us. At our very best we were still a goal or 2 off the pace now we're more like 5-6 goals off the pace.



His ability to bring the best out of the players, his work ethic and ability to communicate his message are excellent things for our club. Unfortunately if he can't improve the scoring capacity of his gameplan then I feel we will never win a flag with him.

 

[Okinakashi]

He still has the same gameplan from Sydney circa 2005 and that is the only time it has won a premiership

That's not entirely right.

Last year every final would've been won with a score of 85 or more.

Good defence can still win a flag*.

* noting we're currently struggling to even score more than 80...

 

[Banker]

Brad Hill is a perfect example of being "Ross Lyoned" in that his indecisiveness and errors have increased greatly. Even S.Hill has gone backwards under Ross as the game plan suits players with no attacking mind set.

We should beating the Hawks at home, instead they smashed us!! Like I said the club should throw a $2m a year contract at Clarkson because he will deliver a flag.

 

[Banker]

That's not entirely right.

Last year every final would've been won with a score of 85 or more.

Good defence can still win a flag*.

* noting we're currently struggling to even score more than 80...

You have forgotten that in finals the pressure reduces the score.

If you're an 80 point team in the season, you will score 60 on the big stage. The whole 100 point argument is that you create enough scoring opportunities to have a winning score in finals. Not necessarily means you need to score 100 in finals to win it.

 

[Freomaniac]

I'll put my hand up. Seems like a pretty sweet gig. A million bucks a year and people will defend you to the death no matter what.

you willing to play tabs? if you say yes.... you are in

 

[M_rash]

You have forgotten that in finals the pressure reduces the score.

If you're an 80 point team in the season, you will score 60 on the big stage. The whole 100 point argument is that you create enough scoring opportunities to have a winning score in finals. Not necessarily means you need to score 100 in finals to win it.

Except the boss prepares for every game like a final... otherwise... you know, it's an injustice

 

[Marty Whitelaw]

I just don't think RTB's defensive style is good enough to ever win a flag. He still has the same gameplan from Sydney circa 2005 and that is the only time it has won a premiership.

RTB's own standards were top 4 defensively and offensively and the table below shows he has never been able to achieve that in his time at Freo. In 6 years we have only been top 8 for scoring once and that is during a very successful period for us. At our very best we were still a goal or 2 off the pace now we're more like 5-6 goals off the pace.

View attachment 395897

His ability to bring the best out of the players, his work ethic and ability to communicate his message are excellent things for our club. Unfortunately if he can't improve the scoring capacity of his gameplan then I feel we will never win a flag with him.

The Fact the Saints lost the 2009 grand final was more due to Milne, Schneider and a couple of others missing numerous easy goals rather than deficiencies in Ross' game plan. You'd also have to argue we had chances to win it in 2013.

Agree the game plan right now is bog average but unfair to say Ross' teams fell short on finals due to his game plan being fundamentally flawed.

 

[Silent Alarm]

There's enough sycophants on here who are happy to see another s**t year where we aren't rebuilding, we're just killing time. Part of a rebuild means the coach should assess his list and adjust himself to help rejuvenate and reenergise the team but this hasn't and won't happened because the man is so arrogant it's almost impressive.

The classic set of ten vocal 'supporting your club means SUPPORTING every part of it' posters would still have Mark Harvey in charge ffs.

McCarthy is nothing at the moment, hasn't grown because he doesn't have a mentor... Hill will inevitably lose his smart, weaving, confident edge and become rounded and just another player... Sutcliffe has gone from a 19-year old who played with confidence to a 23-year old who can barely make a shitful side and who doesn't know what the * his role is... Ethan Hughes isn't allowed to run up the ground anymore... We're still pretending Sandilands is worth a list spot... Ballantyne getting games this year, Suban getting his nice little 150... putting players in for two or three weeks then taking them to Peel and then going through the cycle... the club is just sitting on its hands waiting for a change to come out of nowhere and say 'surprise! This is how you get good again!' but instead there's just stale ideas and indecision on youth.

But nah Ross is Boss etc etc let's have s**t boring arguments centred around pointless facts and statistics that have no actual relevance to Fremantle...


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[Silent Alarm]

The Fact the Saints lost the 2009 grand final was more due to Milne, Schneider and a couple of others missing numerous easy goals rather than deficiencies in Ross' game plan. You'd also have to argue we had chances to win it in 2013.

Agree the game plan right now is bog average but unfair to say Ross' teams fell short on finals due to his game plan being fundamentally flawed.

He has had many chances. It's not luck.

The going out in straight sets in 2014, the capitulation of 2015... these are stages before where he sat on his hands and let things coast when it was obvious something bold needed to happen. I'm sick of it.


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[Nolo180]

There's enough sycophants on here who are happy to see another s**t year where we aren't rebuilding, we're just killing time. Part of a rebuild means the coach should assess his list and adjust himself to help rejuvenate and reenergise the team but this hasn't and won't happened because the man is so arrogant it's almost impressive.

The classic set of ten vocal 'supporting your club means SUPPORTING every part of it' posters would still have Mark Harvey in charge ffs.

McCarthy is nothing at the moment, hasn't grown because he doesn't have a mentor... Hill will inevitably lose his smart, weaving, confident edge and become rounded and just another player... Sutcliffe has gone from a 19-year old who played with confidence to a 23-year old who can barely make a shitful side and who doesn't know what the **** his role is... Ethan Hughes isn't allowed to run up the ground anymore... We're still pretending Sandilands is worth a list spot... Ballantyne getting games this year, Suban getting his nice little 150... putting players in for two or three weeks then taking them to Peel and then going through the cycle... the club is just sitting on its hands waiting for a change to come out of nowhere and say 'surprise! This is how you get good again!' but instead there's just stale ideas and indecision on youth.

But nah Ross is Boss etc etc let's have s**t boring arguments centred around pointless facts and statistics that have no actual relevance to Fremantle...


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Quality rant SA! Sometimes I think ive accidently stumbled into the melt thread in here...

 

[Patty_Moz]

That's not entirely right.

Last year every final would've been won with a score of 85 or more.

Good defence can still win a flag*.

* noting we're currently struggling to even score more than 80...

Not sure I agree Okinakashi
Looking at the team that won the GF last year, the Bulldogs averaged 96 points over 4 games.
Over 4 years of finals (2012-15) we have averaged 78ppg. It's always going to be hard to win 3-4 finals games if you can't really kick over 80 points as you point out its hard enough during the season.

The Fact the Saints lost the 2009 grand final was more due to Milne, Schneider and a couple of others missing numerous easy goals rather than deficiencies in Ross' game plan. You'd also have to argue we had chances to win it in 2013.

Agree the game plan right now is bog average but unfair to say Ross' teams fell short on finals due to his game plan being fundamentally flawed.

Fair enough but I'm not sure I agree with you Marty Whitelaw.

In the 2009 drawn GF the Saints kicked 10.8 to Collingwood's 9.14 there is definitely more of an argument that Collingwood should have won that day if they had have kicked straight. Make of that what you will I suppose the Saints definitely had their chances.

Honestly my opinion is that RTB's game plan is at it's worst in the GF's. In 4 he has coached his teams have averaged 63ppg and they have never managed to kick over 68 points. I couldn't tell you but I would like to when that sort of a score won a GF. To me it's hard to argue that that is the right way to win a GF but just my opinion.

*edit Sydney won in 2005 with 58 points the next GF it would have won was in 1968.

 

[FreoMonocle]

[QUOTE="Patty_Moz, post: 51527015]Honestly my opinion is that RTB's game plan is at it's worst in the GF's. In 4 he has coached his teams have averaged 63ppg and they have never managed to kick over 68 points. I couldn't tell you but I would like to when that sort of a score won a GF. To me it's hard to argue that that is the right way to win a GF but just my opinion.[/QUOTE]

All teams are not equal though. I doubt anyone else could have taken Freo to a GF as we had some great sharp/pointy tools, but not a full toolset. By contrast, the Hawks were a more complete team.

 

[Joao]

All teams are not equal though. I doubt anyone else could have taken Freo to a GF as we had some great sharp/pointy tools, but not a full toolset. By contrast, the Hawks were a more complete team.

This is the bit that is overlooked so often. Each one of Ross' teams had it's role players. This wasn't because he liked spuds. Would Ross have liked more talented players in those positions? Of course, but he didn't have them. Clarko also had the leisure of constructing his team (with numerous high draft picks) to play his brand. Ross got our "cherry ripe" team and had to make do.

I think it will be fair to judge Ross after our rebuild because it will be his team. He (and the other coaches) will be responsible for their development and performance. If he doesn't get it done, then stick the boot in then as he has no out. Premature to judge him now without giving him the chance to prove you wrong.

I will also add that there is no sport in the world where a less talented team can play attacking/pure against more talented teams and win consistently. It just doesn't happen with any regularity. Netherlands almost beat the unbeatable Spanish (for non-soccer fans they were IMO on par ability with the 1995-2007 Aussie cricket team) playing ugly in the 2010 soccer world cup. If they tried to play "football" (ie possession, passing) they would have got smashed because they were nowhere near the ability man for man. It is the same principle in AFL. If they are better then bring them down to your level. All I want to see from Ross is if he gets a team that has comparable talent, then use it to outplay them. I don't expect us to beat more talented teams playing champagne football because it simply won't happen.

 

[jedi mind tricks]

There's enough sycophants on here who are happy to see another s**t year where we aren't rebuilding, we're just killing time. Part of a rebuild means the coach should assess his list and adjust himself to help rejuvenate and reenergise the team but this hasn't and won't happened because the man is so arrogant it's almost impressive.

The classic set of ten vocal 'supporting your club means SUPPORTING every part of it' posters would still have Mark Harvey in charge ffs.

McCarthy is nothing at the moment, hasn't grown because he doesn't have a mentor... Hill will inevitably lose his smart, weaving, confident edge and become rounded and just another player... Sutcliffe has gone from a 19-year old who played with confidence to a 23-year old who can barely make a shitful side and who doesn't know what the **** his role is... Ethan Hughes isn't allowed to run up the ground anymore... We're still pretending Sandilands is worth a list spot... Ballantyne getting games this year, Suban getting his nice little 150... putting players in for two or three weeks then taking them to Peel and then going through the cycle... the club is just sitting on its hands waiting for a change to come out of nowhere and say 'surprise! This is how you get good again!' but instead there's just stale ideas and indecision on youth.

But nah Ross is Boss etc etc let's have s**t boring arguments centred around pointless facts and statistics that have no actual relevance to Fremantle...


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I'd rather be positive than come on here only to bag out the club. Every post you have done has been one of negativity and hatred towards the club.

 

[wild side]

I'd rather be positive than come on here only to bag out the club. Every post you have done has been one of negativity and hatred towards the club.

And state you are sick of it. Therefore you know what to do !
Silent alarm

 

[Banker]

The Fact the Saints lost the 2009 grand final was more due to Milne, Schneider and a couple of others missing numerous easy goals rather than deficiencies in Ross' game plan. You'd also have to argue we had chances to win it in 2013.

Agree the game plan right now is bog average but unfair to say Ross' teams fell short on finals due to his game plan being fundamentally flawed.

Why do you think players under Ross have missed such easy shots? Its not 'luck' because every winner in history says you create your own.

Under Ross Lyon game plan the margin for error is so small that when you inevitably make errors under pressure it kills you in finals. To say Ross had two lists of players with no talent is factually incorrect. If anything Ross Lyon has under achieved with the lists he was given.

 

[ydraw]

This is the bit that is overlooked so often. Each one of Ross' teams had it's role players. This wasn't because he liked spuds. Would Ross have liked more talented players in those positions? Of course, but he didn't have them.

Yes he did.

He chose to play both Suban and De Boer over Lachie Neale, for a start.

 

[SHill Shall]

Why do you think players under Ross have missed such easy shots? Its not 'luck' because every winner in history says you create your own.

Under Ross Lyon game plan the margin for error is so small that when you inevitably make errors under pressure it kills you in finals. To say Ross had two lists of players with no talent is factually incorrect. If anything Ross Lyon has under achieved with the lists he was given.

What a load of horse s**t!

 

[Marty Whitelaw]

Not sure I agree Okinakashi
Looking at the team that won the GF last year, the Bulldogs averaged 96 points over 4 games.
Over 4 years of finals (2012-15) we have averaged 78ppg. It's always going to be hard to win 3-4 finals games if you can't really kick over 80 points as you point out its hard enough during the season.



Fair enough but I'm not sure I agree with you Marty Whitelaw.

In the 2009 drawn GF the Saints kicked 10.8 to Collingwood's 9.14 there is definitely more of an argument that Collingwood should have won that day if they had have kicked straight. Make of that what you will I suppose the Saints definitely had their chances.

Honestly my opinion is that RTB's game plan is at it's worst in the GF's. In 4 he has coached his teams have averaged 63ppg and they have never managed to kick over 68 points. I couldn't tell you but I would like to when that sort of a score won a GF. To me it's hard to argue that that is the right way to win a GF but just my opinion.

*edit Sydney won in 2005 with 58 points the next GF it would have won was in 1968.

I was thinking more of the 2009 Saints v Geelong Grand Final where the Saints kicked 9.14 and Milne, Schneider and McQualter all missed very easy shots on goal in the first half.

 

[PurpleEyes]

In the 2009 drawn GF the Saints kicked 10.8 to Collingwood's 9.14 there is definitely more of an argument that Collingwood should have won that day if they had have kicked straight. Make of that what you will I suppose the Saints definitely had their chances.

The drawn GF was 2010 and there was 7 rushed behinds in Collingwood's 9.14 (Saints had 1 rushed behind).
Collingwood dominated that game with 62 Inside 50's vs the Saints 35 (with Cloke, Dawes and Didak in Collingwood's forward line).
If anything, that Grand Final showed the benefits of how a good defense can keep you in a game.

 

[Joao]

Yes he did.

He chose to play both Suban and De Boer over Lachie Neale, for a start.

That was 2013 Lachie Neale. He was probably better but still only young.

Whether you like it or not, role players need to be able to compete physically. I am sure Ross is capable of recognising that Lachie is better at football, but would have been concerned over his 4 quarter impact. I can wear that.

In any event, not starting Lachie didn't cost us the flag. Some awful kicking I think might be higher up the list of reasons.

Since you said it was a start, who are the others at Freo that got overlooked when they were physically ready? Remembering that Blakely used to play 50% game time when he first came in and Weller still doesn't play inside even now.