List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

[go_the_dockers]

I think there's a huge chunk of cognitive dissonance in this statement. You want him to coach a game plan that is attacking but high risk, which means more blow outs until we get the right personnel in, but you don't want a game plan that wins via a war of attrition. It's either you want the coach and the game plan to win games or you don't.

Not meaning to be attack anyone or be labelled a blind follower - I really just don't understand what people expect and consider a pass mark given realistically where we are.

Agree, the game plan worked when we had a full team but as soon as we got injuries and the older players got tired\injured we have struggled.

Neale has been carrying an injury for weeks, I am pretty sure S Hill has as well. Bennell is still half fit, and we are badly missing Blakely and Langdon at half back.

I expect us to finish mid table next year.

 

[Scham]

Agree, the game plan worked when we had a full team but as soon as we got injuries and the older players got tired\injured we have struggled.

Neale has been carrying an injury for weeks, I am pretty sure S Hill has as well. Bennell is still half fit, and we are badly missing Blakely and Langdon at half back.

I expect us to finish mid table next year.

I think it was more that the opposition worked us out and nullified our game plan. Even with a relatively strong squad we struggled against the better coaches.

And in regards to the injury excuse, when was the last time we've not been decimated with injuries? It's a problem that the club accepted and admitted was a problem last year but it hasn't been fixed. I think it will be this off season.

I agree with your last sentence, mid table finish next year for sure. We've hit rock bottom and changes will be made.

 

[clivenator26]

I've said this on another thread but if I was coach of freo I definitely wouldn't be playing an attacking all out go for goals game plan. A forward line of Tabs, Kersten, Crozier, an aging Ballaz, inexperienced Cox/Grey/Nyhuis, and McCarthy coming off a year outis the least talented I've ever seen.

 

[maka]

we got him in 2012, it will be the start of his 6th season next year.... how are we only just rebuilding now? What a cop out, Swans seem to do it so well with player turn overs as do Geelong, shouldnt coaches see this far into the future?

**Edit - He took a talented Mark Harvey list and burned it all away

 

[wild side]

we got him in 2012, it will be the start of his 6th season next year.... how are we only just rebuilding now? What a cop out, Swans seem to do it so well with player turn overs as do Geelong, shouldnt coaches see this far into the future?

**Edit - He took a talented Mark Harvey list and burned it all away

It'll be his 7th year next year.

 

[maka]

It'll be his 7th year next year.

even better

 

[Dockerbay]

Ross has coached the third most games in VFL/AFL history for no flag.

 

[FirstAccount]

we got him in 2012, it will be the start of his 6th season next year.... how are we only just rebuilding now? What a cop out, Swans seem to do it so well with player turn overs as do Geelong, shouldnt coaches see this far into the future?

**Edit - He took a talented Mark Harvey list and burned it all away

This is possibly a dumb question, but is this satire?

 

[pistol17]

Ross chose to recruit Hale And Gueara as assistant coaches and in my opinion they have been poor choices due to their inexperience .Rock on the other hand was a very good choice . Greg Harding and Jarrad Schofield would be very good replacements for these guys IMHO . I would consider seriously trying to recruit Luke Hodge as the defensive coach for next season and let Prior go . Rock who worked with Ross at St Kilda should be promoted to take over Peel from Cam Shepherd . With these changes I'm of the opinion that we would have a better coaching panel .

Bit hypocritical there. You can't say Hale and Guerra are poor choices due to lack of experience then suggest Hodge as a replacement when he is less experienced than Guerra and equal to Hale. Guerra had a coaching role at the Hawks in 2014 and was recruited for his experience playing and coaching under Clarkson while Hale won 3 premierships with the Hawks and was recruited for the same reason as Guerra, his experience under Clarkson and being involved in a successful club.

 

[maka]

This is possibly a dumb question, but is this satire?

Why is it satire? Ross has a knack of coming in and falling short, has he ever rebuilt a team?

 

[G Mus]

Why is it satire? Ross has a knack of coming in and falling short, has he ever rebuilt a team?

He took a team from mid table obscurity to a grand final and consistent finals appearances, hasn't had time to rebuild until last/this year

 

[maka]

He took a team from mid table obscurity to a grand final and consistent finals appearances, hasn't had time to rebuild until last/this year

we had 3 good years now where back to where we started if not worse, in fact i don't remember a season we got belted by 100 points 3 times

 

[Nightrain]

Attack can rewards repeat attempts, a good young player can get a goal if presented with enough opportunities (but still benefit from experience and get better). Defenders imho need experience, 1 lapse of concentration in 2 hours game time and it's suddenly a goal.

Except Logue had about 15 lapses of concentration...

Anyways, good luck to the kid, I hope he is a quick learner and picks up some footy nouse and smashes the comp next year. Actually I'll be praying for it.

 

[FreoMonocle]

**Edit - He took a talented Mark Harvey list and burned it all away

Disagree there.

Harv's got to finals once with that list and only got 6th on the ladder (won a single final). Ross inherited a team with a few holes in it's player list and long term injury concerns unfairly distributed over it's key talents instead of throughout the team (luke mac, johno, mora, an oft injured sandi amongst others). I can't remember who Harvs had that was traded/retired before Ross, but Haselby and Tarrant at the least.

Ross didn't get to the GF because he had one of the best lists, which yes, still contained some gun players, he got it there because he got the best out of those that were c grade/depth players.

 

[rgauci]

Logue got hands to the ball an insane amount of times in our backline but spilt the mark over and over again. Richmond crumb, goal. I think he got shifted off the line of the ball a few times a bit too easily. Another year or two strength wise and he won't be budged. Fyfe had the clunk hands from early on, so does Cox. Hopefully Logue can develop them.

Our quick hands are woeful without Neale. That's the other thing they should practicing this summer. They should play with greasy wet balls to hone the skills. We won't see a drop of rain all summer and the players won't adapt to the winter wet skills.

 

[FreoMonocle]

Except Logue had about 15 lapses of concentration...

I'll pay that, but we should split the difference as the ball shouldn't have lived in our defence for 3 quarters and put him and the other defenders under so much pressure.

 

[rgauci]

Disagree there.

Harv's got to finals once with that list and only got 6th on the ladder (won a single final). Ross inherited a team with a few holes in it's player list and long term injury concerns unfairly distributed over it's key talents instead of throughout the team (luke mac, johno, mora, an oft injured sandi amongst others). I can't remember who Harvs had that was traded/retired before Ross, but Haselby and Tarrant at the least.

Ross didn't get to the GF because he had one of the best lists, which yes, still contained some gun players, he got it there because he got the best out of those that were c grade/depth players.

Lyon didn't win a GF in 2013 because McPhee's mrs wanted back to Vic and retired him while he was still playing good footy. Imagine him in the backline instead of Sutcliffe. No way is Gunston blind spinning out of a McPhee tackle on the wing or in the goal square. It's sliding doors stuff. Poor bugger never got a flag, 12 months and I think that would have been different.

 

[FreoMonocle]

Lyon didn't win a GF in 2013 because McPhee's mrs wanted back to Vic and retired him while he was still playing good footy. Imagine him in the backline instead of Sutcliffe. No way is Gunston blind spinning out of a McPhee tackle on the wing or in the goal square. It's sliding doors stuff. Poor bugger never got a flag, 12 months and I think that would have been different.

McPhee, loved him... Would have flown the flag a bit for the team mates when the hawks got physical, wouldn't have been impressed by the chicken wing tackle on Walters for starters.

 

[imperial_oz]

I think it was more that the opposition worked us out and nullified our game plan. Even with a relatively strong squad we struggled against the better coaches.

And in regards to the injury excuse, when was the last time we've not been decimated with injuries? It's a problem that the club accepted and admitted was a problem last year but it hasn't been fixed. I think it will be this off season.

I agree with your last sentence, mid table finish next year for sure. We've hit rock bottom and changes will be made.

This is what I've been saying for some time and in my opinion is exactly why Lyon needs to change BEFORE rebuilding a team to play his existing game plan. We do poorly against teams with an uncontested style of play...think Hawthorn. Lyon wants a contested style of game and does well when that is allowed to happen. When the opposition doesn't cooperate, he does poorly.

It is not simply a matter of defensive or offensive game style but the ability to do both and deal with both. We don't. Lyon has turned one of the best outside mids into an inside mid in SHill at a time when we really need outside players. SHill is one example but an obvious one.

I see little point in trying to build another congested style team at a time when the game has changed to one that tends to favour uncontested play.

We really need to think that through...at least the club does but I'm seeing no sign that we have recognised the goalposts have been shifted.

I'll say it again, if he cannot change what he does, if he continues to try to impose what he knows on the game and ignoring what is happening around him, we'll be here again in 5 years with nothing to show for it except more seasons like this one

 

[Nightrain]

McPhee, loved him... Would have flown the flag a bit for the team mates when the hawks got physical, wouldn't have been impressed by the chicken wing tackle on Walters for starters.

Walters copped the "stray" elbow from Lake. I think Barlow copped the chicken wing from Rioli.

Lyon didn't win a GF in 2013 because McPhee's mrs wanted back to Vic and retired him while he was still playing good footy. Imagine him in the backline instead of Sutcliffe. No way is Gunston blind spinning out of a McPhee tackle on the wing or in the goal square. It's sliding doors stuff. Poor bugger never got a flag, 12 months and I think that would have been different.

Yep, always wonder what we would have done had McPhee played. I don't think he would have been as intimated as some of our younger players.

 

[Joao]

we got him in 2012, it will be the start of his 6th season next year.... how are we only just rebuilding now? What a cop out, Swans seem to do it so well with player turn overs as do Geelong, shouldnt coaches see this far into the future?

**Edit - He took a talented Mark Harvey list and burned it all away

Swans are admirable but lets not pretend it is an even playing field.
Give us COLA and we could give it all to Buddy in 2013. Think we could have found the extra couple of goals in 2014 and 2015 with him. Plus we would be more competitive now and them much less.
Also give us top 3 picks in consecutive years using our picks 16+.

If you want to compare us to someone, do it to someone with the same playing field. The only team still "up" is Geelong and they did that by getting Danger WAY unders and trading out 3 first round picks + change. They would want to hope they get a flag from it because they will get pain in the longer term. Adelaide is consistently good but never makes the final grade - perhaps to change this year.

This is not Ross' fault - everyone else is or has been **** in the recent past. This is our turn.

 

[FirstAccount]

Why is it satire? Ross has a knack of coming in and falling short, has he ever rebuilt a team?

Heh cool. Just making sure. The "talented Mark Harvey list" point just seemed like could have been copied and pasted from the Saints board or from the "Lyon is no good, just inherits talent teams" group.

 

[Mr Fonebone]

I would like Ross to retire..now. The problem is he is under contract and will not leave. The club is in desperate need of a new direction.

I have a cunning plan inspired by my many years in the Public Service.

Now everyone knows that it is almost impossible to sack someone from the APS. So how do you get the deadwood out of the way? Simple. You rewrite their duty statement and create a new position covering the roles of that the deadwood use to have.
So. I would go to Ross and say

"Ross this your lucky day. We have decided rewrite the Senior Coach duty statement to provide you with wonderful new challenges such as boot studding and administration of passwords. Of course you will not have time to do all football stuff. No - don't thank us. You have earned it. Oh..and by the way, we have created a new position called Manager of Football Tactics to handle all those pesky things you use have on your plate. Pete Sumich will do that.. your old mate. Oh..and finally Pete will need your office so if you could just move to the workstation opposite the gents that would be great"

Ross of course will grumble about people not respecting his experience and what not but, in the end, as jobs and tasks are slowly removed from his desk he will get pissed off and retire.

Using this time honoured method we get a fresh coach and a good chance of not having to pay out the deadwood. If Ross refuses to do his new duties he can be hit with a breach of contract.

God.. I am clever.

 

[meesy]

One thing I've always been firm on is that Ross has never really had the list to go all the way. However, I think Ross' system really gives other clubs a decent look at our players, and as such their value drops substantially. The exception to the rule is obviously Chris Mayne, which is still ludicrous in hindsight.

An example I'll give is Jed Anderson at the Hawks. barely played but all the noise was he was a 'Cyril clone' in the 2s. North Melbourne got sucked in and poneyed up ******* pick 15 for the kid.

With this rebuild I see our players' value dropping as other clubs see their potential evaporate. There's some heat coming on Weller now, for example, due to his disposal. The big question is it the player not playing to their ability, or is it Ross instructing them to 'give great effort' and forget all the rest? I'm siding more and more with the latter. Personally I think the players play exhausted most of the time. We don't have a Deledio to palm off to GWS for decent picks, even though Barlow really should have netted us a similar result. Why? Because Ross' system really, really exposes players.

Anyway my point is other clubs might find rebuilds a little easier considering their lists haven't been played to within an inch of their life. We get no free passes (Chris Mayne aside) and we're heading to the draft with an early pick and * all else. I look at Melbourne and Brisbane with their insane amount of priority picks, father sons or trade currency. Or Sydney with the ridiculous academy concessions. OR GWS/Gold Coast with practically every leg up possible. I know it's just the way it is and the club definitely doesn't see it that way but as a supporter it's hard to get behind this rebuild when we are coming from so, so far back it isn't even funny. Our list manager is doing a good job with what we have but we have no hand outs and it's really hurting us at the moment.

tl;dr: This rebuild is going to be difficult considering how disadvantaged we are. Ross isn't exactly the problem, but his system and game plan doesn't exactly help either.

 

[yakka man]

we got him in 2012, it will be the start of his 6th season next year.... how are we only just rebuilding now? What a cop out, Swans seem to do it so well with player turn overs as do Geelong, shouldnt coaches see this far into the future?

**Edit - He took a talented Mark Harvey list and burned it all away

You are right. The good coaches plan ahead and don't bottom out for more than a year. Lyon, however, plays older experienced players and only ever played the kids as the sub when we were vying for finals.