Round 1, 2021

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Mattdougie

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 29, 2013
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Don’t think we bat deep at all.

The players in the twos that some think add good depth haven’t helped us at all in the last few years, or aren’t ready.

We have improved our bottom 3-4 but that wasn’t hard to do as those blokes were the major reason we were a mid table team and if they return due to injuries will take us back to mid table
 

doggies ftw

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Don’t think we bat deep at all.

The players in the twos that some think add good depth haven’t helped us at all in the last few years, or aren’t ready.

We have improved our bottom 3-4 but that wasn’t hard to do as those blokes were the major reason we were a mid table team and if they return due to injuries will take us back to mid table
Who do you think is running around in the twos for other teams? Jong, Lip, Dale, Schache, CAV etc arent world beaters but they’re the 25-30 players on the list, I doubt many teams have much more quality and running around
 

Mattdougie

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Who do you think is running around in the twos for other teams? Jong, Lip, Dale, Schache, CAV etc arent world beaters but they’re the 25-30 players on the list, I doubt many teams have much more quality and running around
I don’t think any those blokes are good at all and our results the last few years back that up.

Our bottom 3-4 players in the senior team last year were bog average and not finals quality. They may have been pushed out of best 22 with some inclusions but are now best depth and to me that means our depth is still poor.

If we delisted these so called great depth they wouldn’t be picked up by another AFL team and like the others some pumped up as great depth (Greene, Porter and co) they would be playing VFL at best.

We can contend for top 4 next year with a fit list but after that it’s still a cliff for me, so let’s hope we stay fit
 

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doggies ftw

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I don’t think any those blokes are good at all and our results the last few years back that up.

Our bottom 3-4 players in the senior team last year were bog average and not finals quality. They may have been pushed out of best 22 with some inclusions but are now best depth and to me that means our depth is still poor.

If we delisted these so called great depth they wouldn’t be picked up by another AFL team and like the others some pumped up as great depth (Greene, Porter and co) they would be playing VFL at best.

We can contend for top 4 next year with a fit list but after that it’s still a cliff for me, so let’s hope we stay fit
If all or most of them are playing AFL then yes we’re struggling but if those 5 + the rest are filling 1-2 holes, as depth should, then it’s fine and I doubt many teams have better options to fill gaps. If we delisted Jong, Schache and especially Lip and Dale id bet all the money in the world all 4 would get picked up. Not comparable to Greene & Porter imo

just looked through Richmonds list, best team in the comp by a mile, and I’ve seen 24 players play AFL maybe. Again I’m not saying our 25-30 is amazing but no ones is
 
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Mattdougie

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If all or most of them are playing AFL then yes we’re struggling but if those 5 + the rest are filling 1-2 holes, as depth should, then it’s fine and I doubt many teams have better options to fill gaps. If we delisted Jong, Schache and especially Lip and Dale id bet all the money in the world all 4 would get picked up. Not comparable to Greene & Porter imo

just looked through Richmonds list, best team in the comp by a mile, and I’ve seen 24 players play AFL maybe. Again I’m not saying our 25-30 is amazing but no ones is
Dale is a spud
Schache is “timid”
Jong is injured more than fit
Lipi is slow and “timid”

Id take that bet they would be picked up.

Richmond have injuries and bring in blokes like Arts, Stack and co who are so far better than the 4 above it’s why they are so strong.

We have now moved blokes like Smith and Gardner to best outside the team and the vast majority in here say they aren’t close to good enough so how are they good depth and help us bat deep?

I’ve said it since 16, our depth is over rated and bottom 6 quality and the results reinforce this every year.
 

dogwatch

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Dale is a spud
Schache is “timid”
Jong is injured more than fit
Lipi is slow and “timid”

Id take that bet they would be picked up.

Richmond have injuries and bring in blokes like Arts, Stack and co who are so far better than the 4 above it’s why they are so strong.

We have now moved blokes like Smith and Gardner to best outside the team and the vast majority in here say they aren’t close to good enough so how are they good depth and help us bat deep?

I’ve said it since 16, our depth is over rated and bottom 6 quality and the results reinforce this every year.
I agree we don't bat deep. We read it here nearly every off season but it seldom works out that way.

Our first 17 or 18 are pretty good quality but we are a bit exposed after that. Getting Treloar and keeping Dunkley will help, but that's only one extra. Maybe Marra will be another. Martin will help if he can play out a full season. But even if we had a solid "best 22" we still need another 3-4 solid depth players to cover for injuries.

The one year we had all 22 making a strong contribution (especially in the finals) was 2016. In fact I think that fact is still underappreciated in our reflections on how we won the flag.

The good news is that before the start of 2016 we wouldn't have predicted that blokes like Biggs, Hamling, Daniel, Cordy and maybe even Dunkley, Roughead and Boyd would have stepped up as much as they did. That tells us that it can change quickly and unexpectedly (just as it did for Richmond a year later). But that doesn't happen every year. Maybe only one year in ten.

I hold little hope for Dale, just a slender hope for Schache and I think Lipinski has yet to establish himself as a permanent best 22. I see him as trade bait (while he still has some value) if he can't find his niche this year. Jong is OK but needs a solid run without injury and is still only somewhere in that 20-25 range. Roarke and Hayes I see as cover for injuries but apart from perhaps one game each neither has ever made it into our best 6 or threaten to have a "breakout" season.

Our best chance is if players like Young, West, Weightman, Butler and Richards can show us some consistent form. So far we've only seen occasional glimpses of it from each of them. Garcia is promising but is still having knee problems ... maybe in the second half of the season he'll get his chance.

However the chances of about five players all showing huge improvement are small. And if we are unlucky enough to have a spate of injuries among our top 10 players we could be in strife.
 

doggies ftw

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Sep 22, 2008
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I agree we don't bat deep. We read it here nearly every off season but it seldom works out that way.

Our first 17 or 18 are pretty good quality but we are a bit exposed after that. Getting Treloar and keeping Dunkley will help, but that's only one extra. Maybe Marra will be another. Martin will help if he can play out a full season. But even if we had a solid "best 22" we still need another 3-4 solid depth players to cover for injuries.

The one year we had all 22 making a strong contribution (especially in the finals) was 2016. In fact I think that fact is still underappreciated in our reflections on how we won the flag.

The good news is that before the start of 2016 we wouldn't have predicted that blokes like Biggs, Hamling, Daniel, Cordy and maybe even Dunkley, Roughead and Boyd would have stepped up as much as they did. That tells us that it can change quickly and unexpectedly (just as it did for Richmond a year later). But that doesn't happen every year. Maybe only one year in ten.

I hold little hope for Dale, just a slender hope for Schache and I think Lipinski has yet to establish himself as a permanent best 22. I see him as trade bait (while he still has some value) if he can't find his niche this year. Jong is OK but needs a solid run without injury and is still only somewhere in that 20-25 range. Roarke and Hayes I see as cover for injuries but apart from perhaps one game each neither has ever made it into our best 6 or threaten to have a "breakout" season.

Our best chance is if players like Young, West, Weightman, Butler and Richards can show us some consistent form. So far we've only seen occasional glimpses of it from each of them. Garcia is promising but is still having knee problems ... maybe in the second half of the season he'll get his chance.

However the chances of about five players all showing huge improvement are small. And if we are unlucky enough to have a spate of injuries among our top 10 players we could be in strife.
Out of the 12 players you mentioned there I don’t have 1 bar maybe Richards as best 22, that’s okay depth. If those are the 22-30 odd players on our list we bat reasonably deep, and I doubt there’s that many teams that have a better 22-30 going round. We don’t want multiple of those players playing together but if they’re who were relying on to come in a plug holes for injuries were not too far off the mark
 

doggies ftw

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Dale is a spud
Schache is “timid”
Jong is injured more than fit
Lipi is slow and “timid”

Id take that bet they would be picked up.

Richmond have injuries and bring in blokes like Arts, Stack and co who are so far better than the 4 above it’s why they are so strong.

We have now moved blokes like Smith and Gardner to best outside the team and the vast majority in here say they aren’t close to good enough so how are they good depth and help us bat deep?

I’ve said it since 16, our depth is over rated and bottom 6 quality and the results reinforce this every year.
Aarts is best 22 for tigs, Stack doesn’t get a game for them and he wouldn’t get a game for us, he is bog average. Whose co exactly? Can’t just list two players and “co” and claim they’re depth is so much better.
 

Mattdougie

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Aarts is best 22 for tigs, Stack doesn’t get a game for them and he wouldn’t get a game for us, he is bog average. Whose co exactly? Can’t just list two players and “co” and claim they’re depth is so much better.

They have won 3 flags in 4 years

To suggest their depth isn’t better is laughable
 

Dannnnnnnnnn

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The idea of depth is imo more and more a common misnomer. Better teams have better depth largely because they (1) have a better team overall, therefore they demand less of their depth when they're needed (and they are not covered as much defensively); and (2) they have well-formulated and implemented systems that enable non-regular players to slot in seamlessly.

More and more, depth players are role players - players that aren't necessarily great players, but they complement what their team has and allow other, better players to play better. Look at Townsend for example - he played superb footy for Richmond in a niche role that the team lacked, but has struggled to play at AFL standard at two different clubs now.

Our system is not as strong, successful, or as consistently implemented as Richmond's, and therefore direct comparisons of our depth are misleading. A better comparison is to the teams around our level and age demographic, where I think we compare favourably in some positions and not so favourably in others.

That said, one of the biggest concerns I have with our depth players is that very few of them are consistently given the same role when they play. This is one group of players where training for versatility can really hinder your ability to construct a side.
 

Generation West

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The idea of depth is imo more and more a common misnomer. Better teams have better depth largely because they (1) have a better team overall, therefore they demand less of their depth when they're needed (and they are not covered as much defensively); and (2) they have well-formulated and implemented systems that enable non-regular players to slot in seamlessly.

More and more, depth players are role players - players that aren't necessarily great players, but they complement what their team has and allow other, better players to play better. Look at Townsend for example - he played superb footy for Richmond in a niche role that the team lacked, but has struggled to play at AFL standard at two different clubs now.

Our system is not as strong, successful, or as consistently implemented as Richmond's, and therefore direct comparisons of our depth are misleading. A better comparison is to the teams around our level and age demographic, where I think we compare favourably in some positions and not so favourably in others.

That said, one of the biggest concerns I have with our depth players is that very few of them are consistently given the same role when they play. This is one group of players where training for versatility can really hinder your ability to construct a side.
Yep, you nailed it.

The reason that I feel that we do have great depth is trying to pick a balanced starting 18, then 4 bench spots and you realise that there are another 4 or 5 players missing out that potentially could slot in to our best side.

If the game plan, desire, structure are aligned then we can cover injuries, poor form and hope and expect a strong competitive season.
 

doggies ftw

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Sep 22, 2008
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The idea of depth is imo more and more a common misnomer. Better teams have better depth largely because they (1) have a better team overall, therefore they demand less of their depth when they're needed (and they are not covered as much defensively); and (2) they have well-formulated and implemented systems that enable non-regular players to slot in seamlessly.

More and more, depth players are role players - players that aren't necessarily great players, but they complement what their team has and allow other, better players to play better. Look at Townsend for example - he played superb footy for Richmond in a niche role that the team lacked, but has struggled to play at AFL standard at two different clubs now.

Our system is not as strong, successful, or as consistently implemented as Richmond's, and therefore direct comparisons of our depth are misleading. A better comparison is to the teams around our level and age demographic, where I think we compare favourably in some positions and not so favourably in others.

That said, one of the biggest concerns I have with our depth players is that very few of them are consistently given the same role when they play. This is one group of players where training for versatility can really hinder your ability to construct a side.
Absolutely nailed it Dannn 👍
 

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Mattdougie

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Completely missing the point, dunno why I’m suprised

When there is no point and you are talking utter sh*te nobody can see it.

4 consecutive years of average performance due to lack of talent in the list. Improve the list by one, possibly two players this year and somehow we have great depth and the tigers don’t 🤦🏼‍♂️

Our top depth players now are R Smith, Gardiner and Richards who most in here bag week in week our as not being close to good enough but miraculously they make us bat deep now 😂😂😂😂

Some People are putting Jong in their best 22, enough said.

Keep arguing with the person and not the point 😘
 

Mattdougie

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Richmond have lost several players over the last few years and replaced them with depth and not lost a step. THATS GOOD DEPTH no matter how anyone tries to twist it.

Chol and Arts were not best 22 at the start of 2020. Injury means they step in and bang they don’t miss a beat.

We have injuries and our performance drops substantially. Comparing us to the tigers is in the top 5 most ridiculous things said on this forum on a long time.
 

Mr. Walker

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Our system is not as strong, successful, or as consistently implemented as Richmond's, and therefore direct comparisons of our depth are misleading.
I agree with this. And how do you get these well thought out and implemented systems? You bring in the necessary intellectual property. Of course that is hard to do if you never bring in new coaches.
 

Dannnnnnnnnn

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Chol and Arts were not best 22 at the start of 2020. Injury means they step in and bang they don’t miss a beat.
Do you think Aarts and Chol would be best 22 for us? I'm not so sure...I think they're limited players being given freedom by an outstanding system and a number of excellent players around them.
 

cecil

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Our system isn't as strong because we change the make-up of our team constantly throughout the year. We need to decide how many rucks/key backs/tall forwards we take in to the average match and stick to it. That has flow on effects to guys like Roarke who are asked to plug holes, which is hard to do when you're not experienced and fighting for your spot constantly.

I would go with:
2 Key Back - Keath first choice, Cordy second. Young and Gardner as depth.
1 Third Tall type back - Wood is first choice, however Cordy could also play this role. Crozier potentially too.
1 Ruck - Martin gets first crack. English and Sweet also options.
1 FPF/Ruck - English gets first crack, but Bruce and Schache are also options if he doesn't take the opportunity.
2 KPF's - Naughton if first choice, Bruce probably next best, Jamarra needs more time but will get a shot, Schache as depth. The complicating factor is that the forwards need to have complementary individual traits and also be at least okay defensively. This may count against Bruce.

That leaves a best 22 something like:

FB: Wood, Keath, Crozier
HB: JJ, Cordy, Daniel
C: Macrae, Libba, Hunter
R: Martin, Bont, Treloar
HF: Vandermeer, Naughton, Richards
FF: Wallis, Bruce, Hannan
Int: Dunkley, Smith, English, Williams
 

Mattdougie

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Do you think Aarts and Chol would be best 22 for us? I'm not so sure...I think they're limited players being given freedom by an outstanding system and a number of excellent players around them.
Better than Gardner and Smith

Everyday of the week

Both have proven they can fill a role.
 

Yojimbo

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The idea of depth is imo more and more a common misnomer. Better teams have better depth largely because they (1) have a better team overall, therefore they demand less of their depth when they're needed (and they are not covered as much defensively); and (2) they have well-formulated and implemented systems that enable non-regular players to slot in seamlessly.

More and more, depth players are role players - players that aren't necessarily great players, but they complement what their team has and allow other, better players to play better. Look at Townsend for example - he played superb footy for Richmond in a niche role that the team lacked, but has struggled to play at AFL standard at two different clubs now.

Our system is not as strong, successful, or as consistently implemented as Richmond's, and therefore direct comparisons of our depth are misleading. A better comparison is to the teams around our level and age demographic, where I think we compare favourably in some positions and not so favourably in others.

That said, one of the biggest concerns I have with our depth players is that very few of them are consistently given the same role when they play. This is one group of players where training for versatility can really hinder your ability to construct a side.
That was very deep !
 

doggies ftw

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Our system isn't as strong because we change the make-up of our team constantly throughout the year. We need to decide how many rucks/key backs/tall forwards we take in to the average match and stick to it. That has flow on effects to guys like Roarke who are asked to plug holes, which is hard to do when you're not experienced and fighting for your spot constantly.

I would go with:
2 Key Back - Keath first choice, Cordy second. Young and Gardner as depth.
1 Third Tall type back - Wood is first choice, however Cordy could also play this role. Crozier potentially too.
1 Ruck - Martin gets first crack. English and Sweet also options.
1 FPF/Ruck - English gets first crack, but Bruce and Schache are also options if he doesn't take the opportunity.
2 KPF's - Naughton if first choice, Bruce probably next best, Jamarra needs more time but will get a shot, Schache as depth. The complicating factor is that the forwards need to have complementary individual traits and also be at least okay defensively. This may count against Bruce.

That leaves a best 22 something like:

FB: Wood, Keath, Crozier
HB: JJ, Cordy, Daniel
C: Macrae, Libba, Hunter
R: Martin, Bont, Treloar
HF: Vandermeer, Naughton, Richards
FF: Wallis, Bruce, Hannan
Int: Dunkley, Smith, English, Williams
Couldn’t agree more, we need to pick our favourite structure and pick the team to that. If If we lose a tall bring in a tall etc. but we’re both kidding ourselves if we think that’s how it’s going to go, Bev has shown constantly he’s going to pick the team of the players he believes should be playing and then mould the structure around them.

I think Bev is completely off the mark with this versatility mantra. Not every player has to be able to play every position ffs, you need a couple you can swing around in gamewhen needed like Naughty back/forward, Bont forward/mid JJ forward/back etc to change things up but for the other 15 odd spots on the field you want guys who are doing what they do best. You want Dunkley at the bottom of every single pack, not floating around the forward line missing soda.

It’s why Richmond are so good, their game is so simple. Everyone has specific roles and does the same job week in week out, which is why they can sub average players in when needed and get a similar output. It’sthe same as what we did so well in 2016. We had blokes like Picken, Clay and Dicko for example just playing the same role week in week out. Look how Wallis has thrived now he’s got one thing on his mind every week, Crozier and Williams too.

Ive honestly seen Rourke come in and play half back wing and half forward in the same game. The blokes borderline locked down a spot in our VFL side, is in no way at all proven as an AFL quality player and we’re expecting him to come in and play 3 completely different positions well.

Im hoping with the recruitment of Martin and Hannan maybe we’ve realised this but I’d be surprised if much changes.
 

Bro_Pro

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Couldn’t agree more, we need to pick our favourite structure and pick the team to that. If If we lose a tall bring in a tall etc. but we’re both kidding ourselves if we think that’s how it’s going to go, Bev has shown constantly he’s going to pick the team of the players he believes should be playing and then mould the structure around them.

I think Bev is completely off the mark with this versatility mantra. Not every player has to be able to play every position ffs, you need a couple you can swing around in gamewhen needed like Naughty back/forward, Bont forward/mid JJ forward/back etc to change things up but for the other 15 odd spots on the field you want guys who are doing what they do best. You want Dunkley at the bottom of every single pack, not floating around the forward line missing soda.

It’s why Richmond are so good, their game is so simple. Everyone has specific roles and does the same job week in week out, which is why they can sub average players in when needed and get a similar output. It’sthe same as what we did so well in 2016. We had blokes like Picken, Clay and Dicko for example just playing the same role week in week out. Look how Wallis has thrived now he’s got one thing on his mind every week, Crozier and Williams too.

Ive honestly seen Rourke come in and play half back wing and half forward in the same game. The blokes borderline locked down a spot in our VFL side, is in no way at all proven as an AFL quality player and we’re expecting him to come in and play 3 completely different positions well.

Im hoping with the recruitment of Martin and Hannan maybe we’ve realised this but I’d be surprised if much changes.
100% agree with what you said.
Richmond were also the same as us trying to be “Versatile“ until some of the older plays pretty much said how it was and people need to left in certain position then bang away they went.
 

bresker

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It’s not batting deep as much as the selection committee. Their decisions this year were baffling.

Hopefully VFL returns this year. As crazy as Bev can be , he generally rewards good VFL form. He’s also very good at dropping players to VFL to work on their deficiencies.

Bev might get his mojo back. But if he continually plays baked potatoes ahead of raw spuds we’ll lose our collective shee-at

We were pretty lucky with injuries this year, it’s not uncommon for teams to have more than 10 out some weeks. That’s when a coach earns his corn. But it might give us an opportunity to see what our kids can do.

 
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Bulldogs Legend

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I agree with this. And how do you get these well thought out and implemented systems? You bring in the necessary intellectual property. Of course that is hard to do if you never bring in new coaches.
They just copied our 2016 template and then improved on it.

Partly driven by their team arriving at the right age profile.

Don’t forget that at the same time as Bevo in his coaching career Hardwick had not won a premiership and the same applies to Bont and Martin.

The tigers also played and failed in several finals series before their Premiership run

Our team is still to arrive at that level of maturity and consistency but keep the faith it’s happening!
 

Bulldogs Legend

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Our system isn't as strong because we change the make-up of our team constantly throughout the year. We need to decide how many rucks/key backs/tall forwards we take in to the average match and stick to it. That has flow on effects to guys like Roarke who are asked to plug holes, which is hard to do when you're not experienced and fighting for your spot constantly.

I would go with:
2 Key Back - Keath first choice, Cordy second. Young and Gardner as depth.
1 Third Tall type back - Wood is first choice, however Cordy could also play this role. Crozier potentially too.
1 Ruck - Martin gets first crack. English and Sweet also options.
1 FPF/Ruck - English gets first crack, but Bruce and Schache are also options if he doesn't take the opportunity.
2 KPF's - Naughton if first choice, Bruce probably next best, Jamarra needs more time but will get a shot, Schache as depth. The complicating factor is that the forwards need to have complementary individual traits and also be at least okay defensively. This may count against Bruce.

That leaves a best 22 something like:

FB: Wood, Keath, Crozier
HB: JJ, Cordy, Daniel
C: Macrae, Libba, Hunter
R: Martin, Bont, Treloar
HF: Vandermeer, Naughton, Richards
FF: Wallis, Bruce, Hannan
Int: Dunkley, Smith, English, Williams
It keeps changing because we have been developing
 

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