Autopsy Round 1, 2024: Hawks fail against Bombers

[offtherails9]

He should not be shirking anything.

Noticed Scrimshaw pulled out of one in the third too which was dissapointing.

 

[H00t]

I know Duke had a poor day but his work rate was really impressive for mine. Covered the most amount of distance for us with 14.6 km. He keeps doing that and the possessions will flow.

 

[wahawk]

Didn't Hodge's late development cost John Turnbull his job? I certainly remember the heat that was on Turnbull after Judd won the Brownlow while Hodge was only showing glimpses of what he could be. I remember seeing Hodge's first game after his OP issues and being underwhelmed as he handballed so much since he was probably concerned over his OP. Fast forward and you have a guy who made the team around him better by giving direction and leading and picking up a couple of Norm Smiths. Judd had more impact on an individual basis but Hodge had more influence in terms of the team. And it's teams that win flags.

Not disagreeing with any of your post but there’s nothing wrong with Hodgeys handballs.
How’s that long high handball running out of defence to Changa for a goal.
Absolute brilliance

 

[StillAtLarge]

Coaches' Votes

10 Archie Perkins (ESS)
6 Massimo D'Ambrosio (HAW)
4 Jake Stringer

25

Jake Stringer

Age

30

Ht

192cm

Wt

92kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.9

3star

K

8.5

3star

HB

4.4

3star

M

3.3

3star

T

2.5

4star

G

1.8

5star

D

8.5

2star

K

7.0

3star

HB

1.5

1star

M

2.8

3star

T

3.8

4star

G

2.5

5star

D

7.2

2star

K

4.8

2star

HB

2.4

3star

M

2.6

3star

T

1.4

4star

G

1.4

5star

(ESS)
4 Andrew McGrath

1

Andrew Mcgrath

Age

25

Ht

180cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

22.7

5star

K

11.6

4star

HB

11.1

5star

M

1.6

2star

T

6.4

5star

MG

252.9

4star

D

22.7

5star

K

11.6

4star

HB

11.1

5star

M

1.6

2star

T

6.4

5star

MG

252.9

4star

D

22.0

5star

K

11.0

4star

HB

11.0

5star

M

1.2

2star

T

6.4

5star

MG

219.0

4star

(ESS)
2 Zach Merrett (ESS)
2 Dylan Moore

13

Dylan Moore

Age

24

Ht

177cm

Wt

77kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.9

3star

K

5.1

2star

HB

6.7

4star

M

4.4

4star

T

2.9

4star

G

0.3

3star

No current season stats available

D

12.2

3star

K

6.0

3star

HB

6.2

4star

M

5.4

5star

T

2.8

5star

G

0.4

3star

(HAW)
1 James Worpel

5

James Worpel

Age

25

Ht

186cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

23.5

5star

K

12.2

5star

HB

11.3

5star

M

2.9

3star

T

4.5

5star

CL

5.1

5star

No current season stats available

D

15.6

4star

K

6.2

3star

HB

9.4

5star

M

1.0

1star

T

3.2

5star

CL

1.8

4star

(HAW)
1 Samuel Durham (ESS)

 

[SSSSSS]

Just noticed Gulden is near ~70 games. That's far more than I thought!

Surprise surprise he really only exploded once he hit 50 games in the second half of the 3rd season.

 

[number23]

Not disagreeing with any of your post but there’s nothing wrong with Hodgeys handballs.
How’s that long high handball running out of defence to Changa for a goal.
Absolute brilliance

Not complaining but he was famed for his kicking so I wanted to see it. I was also concerned at the time that maybe he was not over the OP.

 

[The hands of stone]

The thing that was very noticable for me on the ground was the mids looked like boys vs men. Our mids look very undersized. and on so many occasions, essendon players took on the tackler (sometimes more than 1), and then easily got the disposal away while being tackled. Maybe its a strength thing or an endeavour thing ? But if there was a stat for broken/ineffective tackles, I'd love to see where we rank.

The guys we have drafted in to really be our midfield over 2-3 drafts are actually all pretty tall for a mid group .
Most of them still need to not only get some size on but also get confident enough and then know how to use it .

I actually think from last season to now Ward , Cmac and even Mckenzie had put some muscle on .
Reality is they most weeks they are matched against guys having done 4 plus pre seasons.

Itll take time .

 

[Mississippi]

This. Just to add to it, pretty all of those players didn't break out until hitting 70-80 games. Day and Newcombe are well on track.

People writing off Ward and Mackenzie who both have less than 35 is extremely premature!

The reason why this is a silly post is because, as far as I can see, nobody is writing off Ward or Mackenzie, and it’s ridiculous to make that assertion. I’m certainly not, despite some silly responses. I’m hoping he’ll be club captain in 3 or 4 years.
And it’s stupid to talk in terms, as someone else has done, to refer to those “people” as haters. Just utterly ridiculous.

Sixpence, I challenge you to name the “people” who have written off Mackenzie.

To give this a sensible perspective, what a lot of posters are saying, quite validly, is that there’s pressure on Ward to up his rating this year. Part of that pressure, like it or not, is because he was a top 10 draft pick and was drafted to be an integral part of our midfield and this is his 3rd year (he’s not there yet). I think everyone is in heated expectation (me included) that he will up the ante. But he needs to.

One person who has made that point preseason is David Hale. I dare the earlier poster to call Hale a hater. Hale talked in terms of how Josh needs to “get more of the ball and hurt the opposition”. He said he needs to work as a midfielder and to hurt the opposition with ball in hand. Josh is a long way from doing that right now.

We’re all hoping he’ll gravitate to that level - but this is the year that he has to impose himself like we all hope he will - as a top 10 draft pick. It’s quite reasonable for Hawthorn supporters to make this point, in the same way as the coaches obviously have behind the scene (and in Hale’s case, in his gentle positive-reinforcing words, publicly).

Really, we all have the same expectation, and it shouldn’t be something to get your knickers in a knot about.

 

[Buckemenico]

Lots of time for our top 10 picks but would hope that at least one of them can be as good as jai , CMac or massimo. To me, those 3 look the best of the long term mids with Day and probably HH

 

[Gut Runner]

I just don't think you can give games to MacKenzie for the sole purpose of developing him only.

Developing the team is also important and if the team can't trust their own to lay a tackle then they might not be playing to the game plan required. Just a thought.

It also doesn't send a good message to the other younger players trying to get a game.

I wanted him dropped for being soft after the game on Saturday but now a few days later I think a couple of games in a row to see if he has learned.

 

[hawkman]

He shirked one in the first qtr that cost us a goal. But he got better in the 2nd and 3rd quarters when we got on top. He's not a finished product yet, which is understandable.

Don't think he shirked it but he went for an arm grab at the ball thinking he could get out easy, the Essendon player went through with the body with a much greater intent and won the ball. Probably could get away with it under 18s, doesn't work at AFL

 

[Sixpence]

The reason why this is a silly post is because, as far as I can see, nobody is writing off Ward or Mackenzie, and it’s ridiculous to make that assertion. I’m certainly not, despite some silly responses. I’m hoping he’ll be club captain in 3 or 4 years.
And it’s stupid to talk in terms, as someone else has done, to refer to those “people” as haters. Just utterly ridiculous.

Sixpence, I challenge you to name the “people” who have written off Mackenzie.

To give this a sensible perspective, what a lot of posters are saying, quite validly, is that there’s pressure on Ward to up his rating this year. Part of that pressure, like it or not, is because he was a top 10 draft pick and was drafted to be an integral part of our midfield and this is his 3rd year (he’s not there yet). I think everyone is in heated expectation (me included) that he will up the ante. But he needs to.

One person who has made that point preseason is David Hale. I dare the earlier posted to call him a hater. Hale talked in terms of how he needs to “get more of the ball and hurt the opposition”. He said he needs to work as a midfielder and to hurt the opposition with ball in hand. Josh is a long way from doing that right now.

We’re all hoping he’ll gravitate to that level - but this is the year that he has to impose himself like we all hope he will - as a top 10 draft pick. It’s quite reasonable for Hawthorn supporters to make this point, in the same way as the coaches obviously have behind the scene (and in Hale’s case, in his gentle positive reinforcing words, publicly).

Really, we all have the same expectation, and it shouldn’t be something to get your knickers in a knot about.

I don't even know who you are? I mean, obviously I do, but in the context of this conversation, I don't recall any specific comments you made about Ward or Mackenzie. You have taken a post that isn't explicitly about you and made out like it was a direct attack.

There have a been dozens of posts in the last few weeks questioning whether either player will make it. That to me is as good as writing them off, I think it is unreasonable as it ignores the good work they have done in the last year or so.

The point of J2S' and my posts are that even the really good players take a minimum of 50 games to really get going. Ward and Frenchy are being judged on less than 30.

Give them time.

 

[TylerDurden]

Don't think he shirked it but he went for an arm grab at the ball thinking he could get out easy, the Essendon player went through with the body with a much greater intent and won the ball. Probably could get away with it under 18s, doesn't work at AFL

I saw it live. Wasn't a good look. Goal for them.

 

[Tall poppy Syndrome]

Lots of time for our top 10 picks but would hope that at least one of them can be as good as jai , CMac or massimo. To me, those 3 look the best of the long term mids with Day and probably HH

Well Buckemenico,

Let’s hope that soon enough we’ll be talking about either Ward or Mackenzie like Billy Birmingham channeling the late great Lou Richards- ‘he had a Bucken bewdy last week and he’ll be Bucken hard to stop this week.’

 

[Mississippi]

I don't even know who you are? I mean, obviously I do, but in the context of this conversation, I don't recall any specific comments you made about Ward or Mackenzie. You have taken a post that isn't explicitly about you and made out like it was a direct attack.

There have a been dozens of posts in the last few weeks questioning whether either player will make it. That to me is as good as writing them off, I think it is unreasonable as it ignores the good work they have done in the last year or so.

The point of J2S' and my posts are that even the really good players take a minimum of 50 games to really get going. Ward and Frenchy are being judged on less than 30.

Give them time.

We’re in heated agreement - about giving them time.

But when a poster (or even Hale by implication) says they’ve got more work to do, to truly establish themselves, doesn’t mean they’re writing them off !!
No one that I can see is actually writing them off - so don’t bloody well level that ridiculous accusation.

And (not you, but others) don’t accuse Hawthorn posted of the utterly absurd insult of being haters. It’s just juvenile. But perhaps they’re just 10 year olds who have snuck onto mum’s or dad’s computer.

 

[Mercy Seat]

We’re in heated agreement - about giving them time.

But when a poster (or even Hale by implication) says they’ve got more work to do, to truly establish themselves, doesn’t mean they’re writing them off !!
No one that I can see is actually writing them off - so don’t bloody well level that ridiculous accusation.

And (not you, but others) don’t accuse Hawthorn posted of the utterly absurd insult of being haters. It’s just juvenile. But perhaps they’re just 10 year olds who have snuck onto mum’s or dad’s computer.

I think sixpence is referring to the posts about people being worried about whether Ward is good enough. Whether he is a worthy pick 6. That’s different from those saying he needs to work harder. 2 different things.

 

[Mississippi]

I think sixpence is referring to the posts about people being worried about whether Ward is good enough. Whether he is a worthy pick 6. That’s different from those saying he needs to work harder. 2 different things.

So who said Ward wasn’t good enough?
Who are these “people”?
It’s not what I’m reading on this forum.

 

[Mississippi]

The real dilemma regarding emerging players concerns the high draft picks - especially those in the to 10. We had a fabulous year with Buddy, Roughy and Lewis, and of course Hodge.

But we also selected Beau Dowler

Beau Dowler

Age

36

Ht

196cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

D/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.7

3star

K

7.2

3star

HB

5.5

4star

M

4.6

4star

T

2.4

4star

No current season stats available

D

8.6

3star

K

4.6

2star

HB

4.0

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.0

4star

(probably the softest Hawthorn player I’ve ever seen) and Mitch Thorpe. I’m still gobsmacked by Pelchen saying that they recruited Thorpe “to build a forward line around”. And that’s when we had Buddy, Roughie and Mark Wiliams playing !!

So that’s why there’ll always be pressure on Ward and Grainger-Barras.
Hand on heart right now, with the benefit of hindsight, our recruiters would probably like to revisit the Grainger-Barras pick.

So that’s why posters are entitled (without being called haters or the like) to question the progress of those high draft picks. The club has made a much greater investment in them compared to a no. 34 or 70 pick.

 

[Mississippi]

Don't think he shirked it but he went for an arm grab at the ball thinking he could get out easy, the Essendon player went through with the body with a much greater intent and won the ball. Probably could get away with it under 18s, doesn't work at AFL

I recall a Hawthorn player (can’t remember who but could have been David Parkin) telling me of an incident in the 1960s or 70s where a young Hawthorn player shirked a tackle in the 2nd quarter of a game. He hoped no-one noticed.

Then at half time, a senior player or the captain (sorry, forgotten the detail) went up to the player and quietly said:
“Son, saw that. You’re a Hawthorn player now, we don’t do that”.
And that’s all it took for the player never to take another short step in what became a celebrated career.

I wouldn’t be concerned about the likes of Mackenzie.
Although our problem right now is that we don’t have the depth of playing mentors we’ve had over the last 4 decades.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

The real dilemma regarding emerging players concerns the high draft picks - especially those in the to 10. We had a fabulous year with Buddy, Roughy and Lewis, and of course Hodge.

But we also selected Beau Dowler (probably the softest Hawthorn player I’ve ever seen) and Mitch Thorpe. I’m still gobsmacked by Pelchen saying that they recruited Thorpe “to build a forward line around”. And that’s when we had Buddy, Roughie and Mark Wiliams playing !!

So that’s why there’ll always be pressure on Ward and Grainger-Barras.
Hand on heart right now, with the benefit of hindsight, our recruiters would probably like to revisit the Grainger-Barras pick.

So that’s why posters are entitled (without being called haters or the like) to question the progress of those high draft picks. The club has made a much greater investment in them compared to a no. 34 or 70 pick.

I don't see anyone saying Ward or Mackenzie won't make it, and if they have then I've missed it. I also hate it when people are called "haters" for raising questions or concerns regarding anything Hawthorn related.

The point of my long post was to simply highlight that all these great midfielders took at least four seasons to really hit their straps. Ward and MacDonald are just starting their third season now.

For all the angst that seems to be directed at Ward - he is at least being trusted getting a little time in the midfield. Mitchell doesn't trust MacDonald as yet, and I assume that this is mainly because MacDonald has shown that he currently has no defensive side to his game. All three have areas to work on before they are able to take on more significant roles.

I agree regarding DGB. It's not looking good ATM. Injuries haven't helped, and no one could foresee the fitness/size issues. But in hindsight it has not worked out. The saving grace I suppose is that the majority of recruiters rated him as the top talent. Hopefully he comes back and saves his Hawthorn career in the second half of the season.

 

[SSSSSS]

Some salt in the wound.

Expected vs actual scores.

 

[MasterSamurai]

Some salt in the wound.

Expected vs actual scores.

That's believable enough. İt just feels like a bad loss because our awful conversion in front of the sticks. Kick straight, they start having more pressure to score and the weight of numbers sway our way.

 

[Alite]

But for bad set shots, and a few bad choices (Weddle), the Hawks would have won by a significant margin.

In a development year, I’ll take that. Ginni was great until he left the stadium at half time… and Chol was awesome until he needed a sub. Reality check!

Why the hell was Finn the sub? If I could pick any player on our list to be the sub, it would not be Finn. Having him subbed out… yes that makes sense. Having a poor user subbed in is just wrong!

Oh well, it is a development year.


The most important point is… our boys dominated that game while losing the centre. Consider what will happen when our boys win the centre.

 

[barbster]

But for bad set shots, and a few bad choices (Weddle), the Hawks would have won by a significant margin.

In a development year, I’ll take that. Ginni was great until he left the stadium at half time… and Chol was awesome until he needed a sub. Reality check!

Why the hell was Finn the sub? If I could pick any player on our list to be the sub, it would not be Finn. Having him subbed out… yes that makes sense. Having a poor user subbed in is just wrong!

Oh well, it is a development year.


The most important point is… our boys dominated that game while losing the centre. Consider what will happen when our boys win the centre.

Development year was last year, time to show something. I wasn’t expecting a win as they have the wood on us, apart from our missed shots and them kicking truely from half chances, they seemed fitter in the last quarter. We’ll be better for the run.

 

[FB19]

I’m not concerned that Ward and mackenzie make it. The issue is being played out of position. Neither look like obvious dual position players ward is not a winger despite playing there and neither have the leg speed for wing or half back. As I’ve said in the list management thread, we have way too many non dual position mids and something will have to give. For now this year is that extra 15-20 games of development and more importantly clarity on who we take forward and who we move on hopefully to trade for missing pieces.