Clug could be out for a little while so that makes it easy.
We also need to take whatever is worrying Andrews out of the equation and get him more into the game . If that's possible.
Review Round 10, 2022 - Hawthorn vs. Brisbane Lions
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We also need to take whatever is worrying Andrews out of the equation and get him more into the game . If that's possible.
- Apr 3, 2017
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after a nice calming dinner of garlic gnocchi (hmm delicious) some thoughts
rag on Gardiner all you want for his aggressiveness and not being so accountable on his man, but at least two of his high tackles..... I mean what is he supposed to do other than come in 30cm off the ground. These players are dropping so low they are basically doing a soccer slide tackle. There is no attempt to keep their feet or continue the play; just get that high tackle call. And of course they get it. I give him a pass on those.
I wasn't paying too much attention, but surely both Neale and McCluggage weren't simultaneously tagged? Neale was trying to drag us over the line when he was able to break his tag, but I think the true player who was doing the dragging was Berry early on. Late on he wasn't so potent attack-wise but had good pressure in the 2nd half.
Maybe it actually is a negative of our coaching style or tactics with the team sheet in that it requires players to actually play up to their standard. Maybe we should play a safe system so that even when we play s**t the system can win? But those wins will only be against the lower 8, that won't work against the best teams. Its all so easy to see the negatives of the plan when the players aren't living up to their standards.
The mid deficiencies or lack of effort has been spoken of over and over, but it has to be taken into account for our defensive woes and also the stuttering attack. Hipwood we can all agree wasn't setting the world alight, but those entries to him... gee wiz. A player 2nd game back from a year ACL only marking attempts basically were pack marks with 6+ players each time. Defensively the dash and dare the hawks were playing with (facilitated by the lack of mid pressure at times) made any defensive system we had look off. Sure Andrews and Gardiner were playing off their man which isn't ideal, but the speed in which it was coming in didn't help them one bit. Also it seemed each time each individual defender made a mistake it lead directly to a goal instead of just a more attacking play for the Hawks.
Anyway, my favourite moments of the night were when our two rucks had two characteristic goals. Fort making a sneaky lead after a great entry by Berry and then slotting it home, and Big O standing tall like a bloody redwood right in the square and kicking it out of the stadium
Never change you big beautiful bastards
rag on Gardiner all you want for his aggressiveness and not being so accountable on his man, but at least two of his high tackles..... I mean what is he supposed to do other than come in 30cm off the ground. These players are dropping so low they are basically doing a soccer slide tackle. There is no attempt to keep their feet or continue the play; just get that high tackle call. And of course they get it. I give him a pass on those.
I wasn't paying too much attention, but surely both Neale and McCluggage weren't simultaneously tagged? Neale was trying to drag us over the line when he was able to break his tag, but I think the true player who was doing the dragging was Berry early on. Late on he wasn't so potent attack-wise but had good pressure in the 2nd half.
Maybe it actually is a negative of our coaching style or tactics with the team sheet in that it requires players to actually play up to their standard. Maybe we should play a safe system so that even when we play s**t the system can win? But those wins will only be against the lower 8, that won't work against the best teams. Its all so easy to see the negatives of the plan when the players aren't living up to their standards.
The mid deficiencies or lack of effort has been spoken of over and over, but it has to be taken into account for our defensive woes and also the stuttering attack. Hipwood we can all agree wasn't setting the world alight, but those entries to him... gee wiz. A player 2nd game back from a year ACL only marking attempts basically were pack marks with 6+ players each time. Defensively the dash and dare the hawks were playing with (facilitated by the lack of mid pressure at times) made any defensive system we had look off. Sure Andrews and Gardiner were playing off their man which isn't ideal, but the speed in which it was coming in didn't help them one bit. Also it seemed each time each individual defender made a mistake it lead directly to a goal instead of just a more attacking play for the Hawks.
Anyway, my favourite moments of the night were when our two rucks had two characteristic goals. Fort making a sneaky lead after a great entry by Berry and then slotting it home, and Big O standing tall like a bloody redwood right in the square and kicking it out of the stadium
Never change you big beautiful bastards
So stats are the only way to judge the abilities of young players...........??????
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Ballenden was pretty brutally bad every time he sniffed the seniors, and while he has a good start to the vfl season last year before it got ended by lockdowns etc, it was after being moved to defence where there are plenty of others in the queue.
I do not get continuing the Fullerton hate after this one - he was fine and so was Payne who I don’t rate. The other talls were the problem. You can’t expect depth KPP who are playing after injuries to your 2 best key forwards and when your most consistent KPD gets Covid to come in and dominate.
No team has that kind of depth in one position.
I think we have the inside mids... I just think Lyons gets found out way too much when the opposition have the ball. He's elite at getting the ball himself and moving it forward though.. Look at the Dees who are the benchmark. They have Oliver, Petracca and Viney as their inside mids and they all can cover ground very well with and without the ball and are more than on trick ponies who have more to their game other than see ball-get ball-kick it forward.
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Agree with your take on Fullarton, I thought he played a really solid game.
ZoBlitz
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In the end it was probably about efficiency in generating good quality shots from inside 50 entries. Hawthorn have been the best at this in the AFL this year and we started the season being fairly reasonable in this stat but injuries to all our tall forwards has meant that we've been depending on our smalls to generate scores and we've looked a little clunky at this in the last few weeks. Today we just blasted long to nobody way too often considering Sicily's ability to intercept the ball. No point having Hippy back if we're going to kick it on his head constantly and expect him to work miracles. Also, and I might be hyper-focusing on a couple of incidents, but watching players kick to the wrong side of a leading player so that the opposition defender had the shorter path to cut off the kick drove me nuts.
The loss of Adams clearly affected our structure down back because I'd like to think there were a few marking attempts we would have negated with a full complement in defence.
Fullarton showed a bit and maybe similar to Daniher, showed some improvement playing forward when he didn't need to re-adjust his game to chop out in the ruck. His agility and his skills below his knees could be a real weapon if he can develop it. Prior also took his opportunity to use his excellent foot skills and hopefully that will be a confidence booster for him. Rayner's development this season has been very exciting and I hope it continues. He can be so dangerous when he gets near the ball.
Bunch of guys just had dirty days today, Bailey couldn't do anything right, Ah Chee's usually reliable marking was completely off and between themselves Darcy and Harris should have spoilt more contests than they did.
Despite all that and the Hawks accurate set shot kicking, the umpiring and playing away from home we still only went down by less than a goal. It's not ideal but better than losing by six goals at home against the Pies.
Hopefully we'll be able to get a full side out on the park soon and get some continuity with our talls so that we remember how to kick to them.
The loss of Adams clearly affected our structure down back because I'd like to think there were a few marking attempts we would have negated with a full complement in defence.
Fullarton showed a bit and maybe similar to Daniher, showed some improvement playing forward when he didn't need to re-adjust his game to chop out in the ruck. His agility and his skills below his knees could be a real weapon if he can develop it. Prior also took his opportunity to use his excellent foot skills and hopefully that will be a confidence booster for him. Rayner's development this season has been very exciting and I hope it continues. He can be so dangerous when he gets near the ball.
Bunch of guys just had dirty days today, Bailey couldn't do anything right, Ah Chee's usually reliable marking was completely off and between themselves Darcy and Harris should have spoilt more contests than they did.
Despite all that and the Hawks accurate set shot kicking, the umpiring and playing away from home we still only went down by less than a goal. It's not ideal but better than losing by six goals at home against the Pies.
Hopefully we'll be able to get a full side out on the park soon and get some continuity with our talls so that we remember how to kick to them.
I think this is a good call. Melbourne play three inside mids with Oliver, Petracca and Viney/Dustan, with Sparrow as the fourth midfielder that rotates through the centre bounce.
We seem to play three midfielders (Neale, Lyons, McCluggage) and then our fourth midfielder is a combination of Bailey, Zorko and Rayner. Like you mentioned, I wonder if we're better served with playing a fourth midfielder like Dev as it gives a bit more flexibility through the middle.
Number 44 killed us...much hungrier than our dudes.
Nope, he wasn’t. Lacked the required aggression.
Posted in the game day thread that our backline was just not good enough. Sadly and I have to agree but for the most part there are defenders who cannot play man on man. They have come into the system and been taught team defense and zoning off. Harris used to be able to play one-on-one but now needs a player like Adams to play that negating role so he can zone off.
Kiddy IMO also didn't have a good game, very fumbly and not aggressive enough at the man to tackle. I feel at the moment that he has only had a couple of good games and think that he would be a player who needs an arm around him type but he does need to work on his touch and tackling.
Gardiner.........well, less said the better.
Rich looked slow
Starcevich had a 50/50 game but you know that he puts in like he always does.
Payne played well IMO
We lack a killer attitude at times. You see it at times when we start like last week against the crows and we are in first gear. Yesterday we kick the first 3/4 and our mind switches off. It is hard to get up each and every week and all it takes is 5% drop off but I don't think we have had a four quarter effort yet.
Payne definitely had the better game than Gardiner but my only concern is that Andrews, Payne and Adams are similar type defenders. However I would like to see it against the Giants and see what it looks like.
Not sure about the McCarthy move but i can see that it is an effort to get an extra midfielder into the rotation. Therefore try let's try it against the Giants.
It was one of those games when pretty well much across the board we played badly, fumbly, silly errors and not hard enough. Prior was consistently hard at the ball and the man and the results speak for themselves with his output. The amount of players falling over was ridiculous, small things but at this level they are important. Umpires wrecked the game but don't kid yourself that they lost it for us. I thought Mitchell did an amazing coaching job and was 'fluid' throughout the game with trying things to negate the opposition. They were up and we were down. Live and learn, have a word in a few players ears and make a couple of changes. Try something different.
FeastOrFamine
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It reminded me of our GWS final where we just mindlessly bombed the ball to no one for large parts of that last quarter. Hipwood was always going to struggle to impact - which was made even worse by our abysmal delivery to the forwards.
Ah Chee was terrible, but as you said it was just a dirty day so I'd back him in to come out firing against GWS. Harris definitely missed having Adams back there.
Overall it's disappointing but we have been on the road for 4 of our past 5 games, so a slip up was bound to happen.
- Apr 3, 2017
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sorry if someone already posted this
shows how berry and Rayner (wow!) were good for us early, and im surprised by Rich in the last.
anyway, don't look too low. grim viewing
shows how berry and Rayner (wow!) were good for us early, and im surprised by Rich in the last.
anyway, don't look too low. grim viewing
Maybe he included goals from passages of play that started with a free kick...he was very clever the way he handled the issue - like it was our problem to own and remedy!
Nunez
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Yeah look s**t happens, Melbourne lost to Adelaide and the Hawks last year.
I think the real worry was McCluggage getting tagged and nobody else standing up in his stead. Neale was great, Lyons did his usual output but where Hugh would come in and add inside/outside skill, the likes of Bailey and Zorko were massively down on form. That won't happen often - if at all - this season and is quite bad luck. This is where I see someone like Dev fitting in - play him between the forward line and on the ball so when the likes of McCluggage are being tagged, we can move him on the ball and Clugg off the half forward line or even back on the wing.
I think the real worry was McCluggage getting tagged and nobody else standing up in his stead. Neale was great, Lyons did his usual output but where Hugh would come in and add inside/outside skill, the likes of Bailey and Zorko were massively down on form. That won't happen often - if at all - this season and is quite bad luck. This is where I see someone like Dev fitting in - play him between the forward line and on the ball so when the likes of McCluggage are being tagged, we can move him on the ball and Clugg off the half forward line or even back on the wing.
One of those games where you are shitty after the loss and then next day wake and think it's not the end of the world. FF/CHF/CHB all missing. Copped some awful decisions which resulted in Hawks goal - Newcombe constantly banging/pushing into Neale - Neale retaliates once and its a free kick ! Dumb umpiring.
Prior was great. Such a beautiful kick. Big tick for him. Berry was good and I thought Rayner was brilliant at times. He has that power to break out of a stoppage and create something out of nothing.
Defence was poor all day. Too many easy uncontested marks. Lot of that due to poor defensive efforts down the ground. When we apply midfield pressure our defence can intercept and spoil - yesterday they were caught out on quick transition. But we missed Adams badly.
Hippy who was excellent last week couldn't mark anything yesterday. But second game back it's not unexpected.
Been a tough month with away trips to Sydney - Adelaide and now our regular Launceston visit. Think we are travelling just fine.
Prior was great. Such a beautiful kick. Big tick for him. Berry was good and I thought Rayner was brilliant at times. He has that power to break out of a stoppage and create something out of nothing.
Defence was poor all day. Too many easy uncontested marks. Lot of that due to poor defensive efforts down the ground. When we apply midfield pressure our defence can intercept and spoil - yesterday they were caught out on quick transition. But we missed Adams badly.
Hippy who was excellent last week couldn't mark anything yesterday. But second game back it's not unexpected.
Been a tough month with away trips to Sydney - Adelaide and now our regular Launceston visit. Think we are travelling just fine.
Nunez
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Yeah if we win our next fortnight before the break we'll be at 10-2 and two games clear of third. That would be a fantastic start to the year. Big fortnight ahead.
DevRoboGun
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Not sure if this has been picked up but the Hawks have only played interstate once this year in round 2 (port), along with round 6 in tassie.
Whilst we have been touring around the country like a band.
Whilst we have been touring around the country like a band.
Ceebee
Norm Smith Medallist
He had a really good game .
Nunez
Premium Platinum
It was the type of game that could save his career. A goal + setting up 3 others is a very good return from a third tall.
I don't think anyone thinks it's the end of the world and the combination of travel ,key players out , poor umpiring and some poor decision making saw us get rolled. The positives were Prior cementing a spot , Fullarton being more than useful , Berry and Rayner continuing to look better in patches and the fact that we led by over 3 goas twice in the game so were doing something right then.
The better coaches have a blueprint for how the can crack us open and one upshot is we need a better plan for when that happens if we have the cattle on our list or on the park
The better coaches have a blueprint for how the can crack us open and one upshot is we need a better plan for when that happens if we have the cattle on our list or on the park
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Well, it is your problem to own. Brisbane conceded a huge number of dumb free kicks. Lions fans in this thread have even admitted that and said the Hawks outplayed your boys on the day. The Lions lost the game and missed the chance to go 4 points clear into second place on the ladder. They shot themselves in the foot. I actually take Fagan's words at face value and think he was sending a message to his players to keep their heads screwed on and to be more disciplined in future.
There were some howlers awarded (and not awarded) by the umpires, but this went both ways. e.g. I thought the most ridiculous free kick was Tom Mitchell being penalised for a push in the back well after the whistle for a boundary throw-in and play had stopped. What the hell was that?!? Fullerton kicked the goal and put you blokes back in front in the last quarter.
As for Fagan being "very clever" about the way he handled the issue, that depends on what your priorities are. I know you think he's playing funny buggers; that he's artfully blaming the umpires for the loss because that's what you want to believe, but I don't think Fagan is wired that way at all. He is not one to make excuses and look for alibis. He wants to get the best out of his players and have them challenge for the flag. That's his sole focus. But the Lions won't improve upon their poor finals record of recent years with slack performances like they showed yesterday.
Really, the four premiership points were there for the taking. I think that was Fagan's frustration. Sure, some overzealous umpiring.. But to play so poorly; to concede so many goals from free kicks; to throw away a handy head and to lose to a struggling young team by just 5 points. Imagine if Brisbane end up finishing 3rd this year behind Melbourne and Carlton and miss out on the chance to host two Gabba finals as a stepping stone to the Grand Final. Imagine if yesterday's loss ends being the difference between finishing 2nd and 3rd.
I personally don't think it will. You guys have a great side capable of going all the way and yesterday was just one of those off days which causes heartburn or ulcers for coaches of top 4 sides.
Enjoy the rest of the season. Hopefully a Melbourne v Brisbane Grand Final this year. That would be a fairytale match-up after the decade of pain for both clubs in the 2010's.
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Ceebee
Norm Smith Medallist
Some good marks too.
