Autopsy Round 11, 2019: St.Kilda v Port Adelaide

[plugger66]

Of course the quality of the hitouts counts - its absurd to suggest they don't.

About as absurd as saying that because we had more scoring shots than Freo we should have got the 4 points. Quality counts.

I think you might have jet lag!!!!

Over jet lag. Got pneumonia. And I know quality counts. I’m just looking for that stat because if it counts on the scoreboard then Melbourne are obviously winning more than the ladder suggests. Just out of interest Grundy got 54 hit outs to 14 against freo yet the clearances were about dead level and freo won the game. I’m sure there was plenty of quality in those 54 yet they lost. Do we have a stat for unquality hit outs? Maybe he had a lot of them.

 

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

I really like this MG, and the week after potentially Hanners and Carlisle also?
Coffield looked lost last week but you can't blame him the way our defensive pressure was nil and Port opened us up on the fast break. He needs games to develop.
Joyce Young* has been MIA for 3 weeks now and probably needs time in the 2's to find form.
I hate the bye rounds but at least we have the MND fundraiser on Queen's Birthday and the cricket Sunday night. Maybe game 4 in the NBA too...? I'll have to check that. Loch food and wine festival this week also...
All in all - I'm not reading too much into last weeks performance, few tweaks and a couple more goals per game and we'll start looking a completely different side. Not convinced we'll make finals, did a quick ladder predictor and had us finishing on 11 wins with the top 8 needing 13.
Can't sack Richo based on an 11 win season and the injuries we've had, reckon it's 50/50 either an amicable split or extension.

*Edit

It sure is gonna be tight come the end of the season re finals and also richo.. but yeah we have the world cup and the nba finals to tide us over... I just don't know who I'm rooting for.. I think the raptors, GSW have had enough success, and kawhi is a joy to watch, even that ridiculous buzzer beater to knock the sixers out

 

[Verdun66]

Interested to watch Roo on 360 tonight. He said he'd been really crook since he got back with 'Saints Flu' He got 'too close to the boys'....

I know Billings and Savage got mentioned along with the guys that missed out. Sounded a little like the whole illness thing ran a bit deeper than just the names mentioned. Anyone really know what happened? I understand the not wanting to use as an excuse etc etc.

Sometimes these things just happen. Wrong place wrong time. Could have actually emanated from Australia. May not have had anything to do with China. Blake Acres had a fever when he arrived. Someone in close contact with someone with flu....bingo. Goes around the group.

 

[luca77]

Interested to watch Roo on 360 tonight. He said he'd been really crook since he got back with 'Saints Flu' He got 'too close to the boys'....

I know Billings and Savage got mentioned along with the guys that missed out. Sounded a little like the whole illness thing ran a bit deeper than just the names mentioned. Anyone really know what happened? I understand the not wanting to use as an excuse etc etc.

Sometimes these things just happen. Wrong place wrong time. Could have actually emanated from Australia. May not have had anything to do with China. Blake Acres had a fever when he arrived. Someone in close contact with someone with flu....bingo. Goes around the group.

I bet Port were happy that we let those boys play. It'd almost be a surprise if their players didn't catch it from us.

 

[Diehard Saint]

In what ways did they say we were disorganised?

Lauren Wood did a great article on Saturday about the preparation the club did with regards to food, accomodation, schedule for the players on the plane, even JB and Mac doing a "dry run" of the trip in November. There was obviously a lot of things we didn't anticipate since it was our first trip compared to Port have already learnt these things in their two previous trips. We will be better next year.

Triple M...hmmm.
Couldn’t be our friend DB criticising again could it?

Honestly I doubt the players “all complained.”
No one can foresee and prevent gastro when travelling and the reason Port had an extra day there is because they took a really long time to get there while we went direct.

There will always be people, both media and supporters bagging the club.
We need the money, so we sold a home game...I still believe that if we hadn’t had the illness and the injuries we had that we would be a better show there than against Port in Adelaide.

Next year.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Over jet lag. Got pneumonia. And I know quality counts. I’m just looking for that stat because if it counts on the scoreboard then Melbourne are obviously winning more than the ladder suggests. Just out of interest Grundy got 54 hit outs to 14 against freo yet the clearances were about dead level and freo won the game. I’m sure there was plenty of quality in those 54 yet they lost. Do we have a stat for unquality hit outs? Maybe he had a lot of them.

Pneumonia - jeez thats no good!!!

Grundy got more possessions than Lobb - does that mean possessions by ruckman don't count as well? (Come on down Billy!!!)

As for Melbourne - no they have exactly the same problem as us - their i50's entries are crap - having Gawn means they just have more of them than us. (58 to 51)

 

[plugger66]

Pneumonia - jeez thats no good!!!

Grundy got more possessions than Lobb - does that mean possessions by ruckman don't count as well? (Come on down Billy!!!)

As for Melbourne - no they have exactly the same problem as us - their i50's entries are crap - having Gawn means they just have more of them than us. (58 to 51)

Or most likely a better midfield. I don’t think anyone would argue otherwise. Also didn’t you say quality hit outs would most likely equal goals. Max would have plenty of quality hit outs not that we can find that stat.

And you really aren’t arguing over 2 possessions difference. Maybe if he 4 times the possession like he did in hit outs they may have won. Also lobb kicked a goal.

 

[mad-saint-guy]

Newnes best is excellent, probably suffers from not really owning a spot but is a leader. Even the best teams have soldiers. I reckon he's good for that at least.

I totally disagree with that first statement. Newnes' best is solid, and he hasn't been at that level since 2017. We're talking about an outside midfielder who has polled Brownlow votes ONCE in 146 games.

I would say he is the personification of vanilla. He's a decent runner but isn't damaging, rarely gets in dangerous positions and blazes away going forward far too often. I think he was best used as a solid medium defender but the coaches have tried to turn him into something he is not. He's one of many players on the list who are better with the play in front of them (a symptom of years of trying to recruit half back flankers and turn them into midfielders). Do you think an opposition club has ever worried about Newnes when planning for a game?

I agree that even the best teams have soldiers, but they're not playing on the wing. Geary is an example of a soldier who would get a spot in a good team. Newnes is a list clogger

 

[gringo2011]

Of course the quality of the hitouts counts - its absurd to suggest they don't.

About as absurd as saying that because we had more scoring shots than Freo we should have got the 4 points. Quality counts.

I think you might have jet lag!!!!

They are hard to measure because getting a ball out into space 25 meters ahead of the scrum so that payers can run on to it like Clark Keating used to do is registered as poor but tapping it to your mid who is immediately tackled is a positive stat. Ruck duals are important if you have a dominant ruck but teams like GWS can win the ball from the midfield so just someone who contests every stoppage is good enough to feed them all. They can have the luxury of carrying a guy who is just there for taps. A side with average to poor mids can't carry any one dimensional payers. Our ruckman has to carry more responsibility and win his own ball or we are exposed.

 

[gringo2011]

I totally disagree with that first statement. Newnes' best is solid, and he hasn't been at that level since 2017. We're talking about an outside midfielder who has polled Brownlow votes ONCE in 146 games.

I would say he is the personification of vanilla. He's a decent runner but isn't damaging, rarely gets in dangerous positions and blazes away going forward far too often. I think he was best used as a solid medium defender but the coaches have tried to turn him into something he is not. He's one of many players on the list who are better with the play in front of them (a symptom of years of trying to recruit half back flankers and turn them into midfielders). Do you think an opposition club has ever worried about Newnes when planning for a game?

I agree that even the best teams have soldiers, but they're not playing on the wing. Geary is an example of a soldier who would get a spot in a good team. Newnes is a list clogger

I thought he started this year really well, he got moved off a wing and we've dropped away at the same point he did. He suffers from the same as a few of our players, he has no defined role. He's never really settled like Acres and even after a good game he can be moved a week later. A new coach hopefully gives a few of these guys some kind of set spot to work at holding. I agree we always go for the same types then try to convert them into something they're not.

 

[BrutThough]

I thought he started this year really well, he got moved off a wing and we've dropped away at the same point he did. He suffers from the same as a few of our players, he has no defined role. He's never really settled like Acres and even after a good game he can be moved a week later. A new coach hopefully gives a few of these guys some kind of set spot to work at holding. I agree we always go for the same types then try to convert them into something they're not.

It's not a coincidence that Newnes form has fallen away greatly once Phillips came into the side and meant he couldn't spend the whole game on the wing.

 

[Ducky Tie]

It's not a coincidence that Newnes form has fallen away greatly once Phillips came into the side and meant he couldn't spend the whole game on the wing.

I've banged on about it a bit already, but the wing situation really has been ridiculous. There was just absolutely no sense to bringing in Phillips who can only play wing when both Billings and Newnes were playing really good footy as full time wingers. It has failed on all three markers. Newnes has been in no mans land for a month, playing a bit of forward, wing and defence and excelling in none. Billings has split his time between a wing and half forward, resulting in patchy form. Phillips aside from his first game in hasn't found anywhere near enough footy and is already an average kick. I would love to hear the justification of this from the coaches. I've been a big supporter of what they've done this year as most of it has revolved around common sense but the wingers situation has been farcical.

 

[plugger66]

I've banged on about it a bit already, but the wing situation really has been ridiculous. There was just absolutely no sense to bringing in Phillips who can only play wing when both Billings and Newnes were playing really good footy as full time wingers. It has failed on all three markers. Newnes has been in no mans land for a month, playing a bit of forward, wing and defence and excelling in none. Billings has split his time between a wing and half forward, resulting in patchy form. Phillips aside from his first game in hasn't found anywhere near enough footy and is already an average kick. I would love to hear the justification of this from the coaches. I've been a big supporter of what they've done this year as most of it has revolved around common sense but the wingers situation has been farcical.

I think newnes form was dropping off before Phillips was brought in. And secondly even his good form isn’t great. Maybe as many suggest here we decided to give a young guy a go but then in hindsight we hate that move. We could keep newnes playing good but not great on the wing or take a punt on a younger kid who may end up better than newnes. The good thing is it hasn’t cost a win so nothing is lost. People who want young guys to get a go can’t be whinging when young guys get a go. Not saying you in this case. Just generally

 

[CaptainRisky]

I've banged on about it a bit already, but the wing situation really has been ridiculous. There was just absolutely no sense to bringing in Phillips who can only play wing when both Billings and Newnes were playing really good footy as full time wingers. It has failed on all three markers. Newnes has been in no mans land for a month, playing a bit of forward, wing and defence and excelling in none. Billings has split his time between a wing and half forward, resulting in patchy form. Phillips aside from his first game in hasn't found anywhere near enough footy and is already an average kick. I would love to hear the justification of this from the coaches. I've been a big supporter of what they've done this year as most of it has revolved around common sense but the wingers situation has been farcical.

Im not a big fan of Phillips but he had nothing to do with Billings patchy form as you put it, Two weeks after Phillips came in Billings had his best game of the year against the Pies

 

[Ducky Tie]

I think newnes form was dropping off before Phillips was brought in. And secondly even his good form isn’t great. Maybe as many suggest here we decided to give a young guy a go but then in hindsight we hate that move. We could keep newnes playing good but not great on the wing or take a punt on a younger kid who may end up better than newnes. The good thing is it hasn’t cost a win so nothing is lost. People who want young guys to get a go can’t be whinging when young guys get a go. Not saying you in this case. Just generally

I don't agree that Newnes was dropping off before Phillips was brought in. He'd had one game below 20 disposals out of seven and in that one game he still got 19. The week prior to Phillips' inclusion, six people on this board gave Newnes votes. The below are his champion data scores per game this season (obviously not the ideal reflection of performance but still an indicator). A pretty direct drop off in the the last four weeks, and not prior.



As to your second point, that is very much a perspective issue as to how you rate Newnes but I think when he is playing well he is an important member of the team. I certainly wasn't one calling for youth for the sake of youth, as you acknowledge. Was anyone calling for Phillips though? In his two VFL games prior to being selected he'd gotten 16 and 20 disposals, hardly banging the door down. There was no indication that he would outperform our wingers at the time. The one thing I will give credit for is that he has been given a month. This is how young players should be treated. Dropping Clark after one game back in the firsts was nonsensical but that is another issue.

As you say, it hasn't cost us anything from a win loss perspective so I am probably getting overly agitated by it.

 

[plugger66]

I don't agree that Newnes was dropping off before Phillips was brought in. He'd had one game below 20 disposals out of seven and in that one game he still got 19. The week prior to Phillips' inclusion, six people on this board gave Newnes votes. The below are his champion data scores per game this season (obviously not the ideal reflection of performance but still an indicator). A pretty direct drop off in the the last four weeks, and not prior.

View attachment 687617

As to your second point, that is very much a perspective issue as to how you rate Newnes but I think when he is playing well he is an important member of the team. I certainly wasn't one calling for youth for the sake of youth, as you acknowledge. Was anyone calling for Phillips though? In his two VFL games prior to being selected he'd gotten 16 and 20 disposals, hardly banging the door down. There was no indication that he would outperform our wingers at the time. The one thing I will give credit for is that he has been given a month. This is how young players should be treated. Dropping Clark after one game back in the firsts was nonsensical but that is another issue.

As you say, it hasn't cost us anything from a win loss perspective so I am probably getting overly agitated by it.

Fair enough but I’m the opposite about the month and simply because of anguish like this. If he was dropped after the second no one would care. Anyway he will be out next game.

 

[BrutThough]

I think newnes form was dropping off before Phillips was brought in. And secondly even his good form isn’t great. Maybe as many suggest here we decided to give a young guy a go but then in hindsight we hate that move. We could keep newnes playing good but not great on the wing or take a punt on a younger kid who may end up better than newnes. The good thing is it hasn’t cost a win so nothing is lost. People who want young guys to get a go can’t be whinging when young guys get a go. Not saying you in this case. Just generally

Phillips came in rd8 against West Coast, and if you look at Newnes stats before and after that match there is a huge drop off.

Disposals have been down, contested possession numbers halved, less score involvement, stoppage clearances numbers and less inside 50s. Also hasn't has a goal assist since then when before he was averaging one a game. His numbers were out slightly against Port last week but that might be attributed to Billings spending more time in the forward line due to his illness meaning there was more wing time available.

Newnes isn't a star but he was fairly integral to our form early in the season and really helped our offence look more dangerous. It is just too much coincidence that his form has dropped from the game Phillips came in.

Im not a big fan of Phillips but he had nothing to do with Billings patchy form as you put it, Two weeks after Phillips came in Billings had his best game of the year against the Pies

The conspiracy theorist in my would say that Billings looked his best and most damaging in that second quarter when Phillips was off getting a concussion test, and his influence diminished in the second half when Phillips came back on

 

[Ducky Tie]

Im not a big fan of Phillips but he had nothing to do with Billings patchy form as you put it, Two weeks after Phillips came in Billings had his best game of the year against the Pies

How does that contradict me saying he has had patchy form in the last month? Billings had strong games in virtually every game of the first seven weeks. In the last month, he has been spending considerably more time forward and whilst yes, he had a great game against the Pies, he has had two average games in this time also. I certainly didn't say Billings has been incapable of playing good footy in the last month, but his consistency has not been as it was in the first seven weeks. He has looked at his best this year when on a wing, even most of his goals have come from creeping forward from a wing rather than playing as a forward.

 

[CaptainRisky]

How does that contradict me saying he has had patchy form in the last month? Billings had strong games in virtually every game of the first seven weeks. In the last month, he has been spending considerably more time forward and whilst yes, he had a great game against the Pies, he has had two average games in this time also. I certainly didn't say Billings has been incapable of playing good footy in the last month, but his consistency has not been as it was in the first seven weeks. He has looked at his best this year when on a wing, even most of his goals have come from creeping forward from a wing rather than playing as a forward.

Not sure you can count last week , he looked crook so now we are down to one average game

 

[plugger66]

Not sure you can count last week , he looked crook so now we are down to one average game

I’m not sure Phillips coming in has effected both newnes and billings. He is fit but I don’t think he can play on both wings at the same time

 

[CaptainRisky]

I’m not sure Phillips coming in has effected both newnes and billings. He is fit but I don’t think he can play on both wings at the same time

Easy way to fix the problem , send Phillips to Collingwood , i like his run but he has no weapons what so ever,

 

[Ducky Tie]

I’m not sure Phillips coming in has effected both newnes and billings. He is fit but I don’t think he can play on both wings at the same time

He can't take both off the wing at the same time but if we've gone from Newnes and Billings both attending 90% plus of bounces on a wing to Phillips taking 90% of one wing, that leaves considerably less for both of them. It's clear that both are spending less time on a wing than they were a month ago so hard to argue that it hasn't at least impacted them. Whether or not you think that impact is negative is a different story.

 

[plugger66]

He can't take both off the wing at the same time but if we've gone from Newnes and Billings both attending 90% plus of bounces on a wing to Phillips taking 90% of one wing, that leaves considerably less for both of them. It's clear that both are spending less time on a wing than they were a month ago so hard to argue that it hasn't at least impacted them. Whether or not you think that impact is negative is a different story.

I actually newnes is playing half back and billings still on the wing except last week when he was obviously sick

 

[#gosaintas]

Funny thing is, Phillips was also playing ordinary in the 2nds.
The Cho seems to base his selections on the time trial results.
DMAC and Phillips get games regardless of form.
White can't get a run regardless of form.
The Cho seems to like poorly skilled players who can sprint up and down the field all day.

 

[Saintbloke]

We have quite a few players who can get the ball, get an acceptable number of possessions and look good in the process, but do little damage to the opposition. Can't say over the last few seasons that I've see any of our players who play inspirational footy, and only occasional glimpses from Jack Steven, but inconsistent. The more successful teams seem to have these players who can noticeably lift for a quarter and change the course of a game to their team's advantage. If we keep plodding as we are, then I think a big cleanout is needed, but of course, easier said than done.