Autopsy Round 13, 2021: St.Kilda v Adelaide

[gringo2011]

Membery pushed out. Are we all of a sudden going to be top 4. For some reason you have been against him this year. He has been bloody good. Certainly not the reason for a crap year. And I thought you said Ross has also had a good year. You don’t have to have all stars in a side even to win a flag. Both those players are good enough to play in very good sides especially if you have set role for them.

He's good player but not a great player. When guys like Billings Ross and Membrey are your top players you are an ordinary side. He was s**t last year but he's been better this year. Most of it is the coaches fault though, they don't play him in his best spot so he's not really as effective as he could be.

Happy to keep him if he improves but at the moment he's playing a mobile high half forward which he's only okay as or he goes back to being an undersized tall lead up forward who in a good year is worth around 45 goals. Seb is a messy outside mid and not that good that he's owning his spot. To me he's much better than he was last year but he doesn't really have spot any more and we are using him inefficiently.

The reason that we are s**t is because these types were our stars where they would be bottom 10 players at a good club.

 

[StCicatriz]

Fair enough

I'm not going to argue but that's not what I got out of the interview this morning.

I agree with you George that her views are outdated and that's where she let herself down, not on her reporting of the story though.

I'll leave it there because I don't really care.

100% this

 

[Dr Spaceman]

Look, Seb and Tim missing that game no doubt has cost us a flag, but we just move on.

Well at least I do

 

[plugger66]

He's good player but not a great player. When guys like Billings Ross and Membrey are your top players you are an ordinary side. He was sh*t last year but he's been better this year. Most of it is the coaches fault though, they don't play him in his best spot so he's not really as effective as he could be.

Happy to keep him if he improves but at the moment he's playing a mobile high half forward which he's only okay as or he goes back to being an undersized tall lead up forward who in a good year is worth around 45 goals. Seb is a messy outside mid and not that good that he's owning his spot. To me he's much better than he was last year but he doesn't really have spot any more and we are using him inefficiently.

The reason that we are sh*t is because these types were our stars where they would be bottom 10 players at a good club.

Yep but that doesn’t mean they have to go. It means we need better players as well as them.

 

[phantom13]

I just think the backlash against her is just as crazy as the article. I must be old fashioned but to me being at the birth of a child is important but they sign on to play 23 rounds and finals and unless it's absolutely necessary it should be the norm. It's not a normal workplace and never will be it's not just a competitive environment it's literally a competition.

Players are expected to play even when life gets in the way, when injury limits performance, when weddings are on or friends have birthdays etc. The pandemic makes it a little bit different and there are always things to flex around. Paddy Ryder hadn't seen his kids for months, had been locked out of WA during the off season and was probably contemplating his footy future. He was probably never expected to be a 23 game a season player when we got him. I could see how hard that would be and the reason for giving him time out.

There should be allowances for situations like this under special circumstances but the god given right to time off doesn't fit with the nature of competitive sport. I'm all for progressive but not for open season on taking time off for anything that players see fit to take it off for. It's quite normal for the side to agree on a charter of what they expect from each other and make a commitment, I still think that would be a logical way to make this a non issue.

I think thats still playing around the fringes of not taking Sebs word for it.

If were making a comparison to Paddy then we have no idea if he had seen his kids or how much thats affected him, who are you or am i to say that Seb wasnt struggling just as much, or that his wife isnt post natal. Just because you or i dont say they arent the same it means absolutely nothing to Seb or Paddy.

Caro is (in my opinion) copping absolutely valid criticism for making some pretty poor comments about Seb not really "needing" this time.

In reality if Seb (who lets not forget has been a very loyal servant of this club) said he needed time im happy we gave it to him.

 

[gringo2011]

It is their right though. Yes you are old fashioned. And if you are talking when they signed up well then they didn’t sign up to hubs. She deserves everything she is getting as long as people aren’t personal. Her views are terrible. Just come out and say they shouldn’t have gone home. You making enough excuses for her to suggest that’s what you think. Fine if that’s the case. It’s just not the way things should be done in 2021.

I don't care but I don't think its unreasonable to expect them to play. It's pretty much shows the ruthless nature of our club though.

Plenty of players and assistants are going to lose their jobs potentially because we couldn't compete this year. No-one is having a cry because they'll have a hard time trying to find a new role in an industry that is not hiring right now. Seb might have inadvertently caused it to come to a head. There is no right or wrong here just opinions.

 

[gringo2011]

I think thats still playing around the fringes of not taking Sebs word for it.

If were making a comparison to Paddy then we have no idea if he had seen his kids or how much thats affected him, who are you or am i to say that Seb wasnt struggling just as much, or that his wife isnt post natal. Just because you or i dont say they arent the same it means absolutely nothing to Seb or Paddy.

Caro is (in my opinion) copping absolutely valid criticism for making some pretty poor comments about Seb not really "needing" this time.

In reality if Seb (who lets not forget has been a very loyal servant of this club) said he needed time im happy we gave it to him.

If he was struggling the club should have just put it out that he was taking a week off for personal leave. It would have stopped any further discussion. Paddy was handled well and got most people of his side even when we were struggling without him.

 

[StCicatriz]

Finnis is 100% bang on RE: naming the players partners and talking about health, i'd go further and say the biggest issue out of her comments was publicly naming the players partners. just not on. really bad areas. they're not paid an AFL salary. they are not fair game.

the 2nd major issue, is who leaked that to Caro and other media types. that person has a lot to answer to.

 

[phantom13]

If he was struggling the club should have just put it out that he was taking a week off for personal leave. It would have stopped any further discussion. Paddy was handled well and got most people of his side even when we were struggling without him.

Perhaps the club thought it was important to be transparent and adress that fathers need to spend time with their families.

On the one hand youre saying we need details on why he left but then also saying we should have just given it the broad message.

Im not directing this at you (that didnt go well when it was misunderstood last time) but if you have issue with him taking time for "family reasons" but not "personal reasons"... real odd take.

 

[phantom13]

I don't care but I don't think its unreasonable to expect them to play. It's pretty much shows the ruthless nature of our club though.

Plenty of players and assistants are going to lose their jobs potentially because we couldn't compete this year. No-one is having a cry because they'll have a hard time trying to find a new role in an industry that is not hiring right now. Seb might have inadvertently caused it to come to a head. There is no right or wrong here just opinions.

This reads alot like "Seb just cost people their jobs by taking a week off". Its the extreme version of what youre saying but if his family needed him his family needed him, id suggest pretty strongly he considered the implications of the decision he made and decided this was something he needed to do.

 

[plugger66]

I don't care but I don't think its unreasonable to expect them to play. It's pretty much shows the ruthless nature of our club though.

Plenty of players and assistants are going to lose their jobs potentially because we couldn't compete this year. No-one is having a cry because they'll have a hard time trying to find a new role in an industry that is not hiring right now. Seb might have inadvertently caused it to come to a head. There is no right or wrong here just opinions.

It doesn’t show one bad thing about the club. It shows they care for players as all clubs do. Obviously the tigers weren’t ruthless enough last year when houli and edwards missed many weeks because they let them stay home. That will be different though.

 

[gringo2011]

Perhaps the club thought it was important to be transparent and adress that fathers need to spend time with their families.

On the one hand youre saying we need details on why he left but then also saying we should have just given it the broad message.

Im not directing this at you (that didnt go well when it was misunderstood last time) but if you have issue with him taking time for "family reasons" but not "personal reasons"... real odd take.

I don't need details but there is a code for any kind of struggling which is "personal issues" not even Caro would attack that. It's a vague cover-all for exactly this stuff.

 

[phantom13]

I don't need details but there is a code for any kind of struggling which is "personal issues" not even Caro would attack that. It's a vague cover-all for exactly this stuff.

Well in reality if Caro got wind of this from the club then it wouldnt really make a different, she still would have run the story.

Bottom line her angle and presentation on this is awful and shes been rightly called out on it.

 

[plugger66]

I don't need details but there is a code for any kind of struggling which is "personal issues" not even Caro would attack that. It's a vague cover-all for exactly this stuff.

But if she got the story as she describes it she would. She didn’t chase this story last week when it actually happened. She was either given part of it or chose to say part of it after the event. Whose to say the same thing wouldn’t have happened had it been said as personal issues

 

[gringo2011]

It doesn’t show one bad thing about the club. It shows they care for players as all clubs do. Obviously the tigers weren’t ruthless enough last year when houli and edwards missed many weeks because they let them stay home. That will be different though.

They can also wear players fighting in nightclubs and all sorts of s**t because they are winners and get given as much rope as they want. We are perennial underachievers who have just had an incredible fall from expectations and are under pressure already. To me I don't want nice guys or nice club, or nice anything, just start winning. They can be progressive but they also need to keep an eye on what's happening on field or they have literally forgotten what the primary job of being a football club is.

 

[gringo2011]

Well in reality if Caro got wind of this from the club then it wouldnt really make a different, she still would have run the story.

Bottom line her angle and presentation on this is awful and shes been rightly called out on it.

To me she's blown up a nothing story but the blame isn't all on her. The club left a door open for her to come in.

 

[gringo2011]

This reads alot like "Seb just cost people their jobs by taking a week off". Its the extreme version of what youre saying but if his family needed him his family needed him, id suggest pretty strongly he considered the implications of the decision he made and decided this was something he needed to do.

Well he might have. The players lack of competitiveness will cost team mates their careers and plenty of backroom staff their jobs as the club s**t's itself and makes "statements".

 

[phantom13]

To me she's blown up a nothing story but the blame isn't all on her. The club left a door open for her to come in.

Yeh thats not why shes being criticized though, shes being criticized for he archaic views on this sort of leave.

 

[BrutThough]

Well he might have. The players lack of competitiveness will cost team mates their careers and plenty of backroom staff their jobs as the club sh*t's itself and makes "statements".

Anyone who loses their job or is delisted will be off the back of prolonged poor performance.

It will have nothing to do with Seb putting his families welfare before 1 game of football.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

Plenty of players and assistants are going to lose their jobs potentially because we couldn't compete this year. No-one is having a cry because they'll have a hard time trying to find a new role in an industry that is not hiring right now. Seb might have inadvertently caused it to come to a head.

I think you could be right, although I would argue that those players and assistants will probably lose their jobs because of a variety of factors including unavoidable injuries, the impact of covid on fixtures and the associated suspension of VFL games (and the resultant detrimental effect on player development), and the ongoing need to refine clubs’ financials as set out by the AFL.

But mainly by the need to rejuvenate lists and the fact that in many cases, those individuals are simply not up to it.

I don't really think anyone is going to lose their job as a result of Seb and Tim attending to family duties even if their absence contributed to Adelaide getting up. Our season was cooked well and truly before the ball was bounced in Cairns.

 

[stavro#4]

No thats not right, Caro is copping abuse now as she has put her opinion out there and its antiquated.

She chose to editorialise the story and then doubled down with the old "im just saying what everyone is thinking".

Im still far from convinced that she got the story she thinks she got but the abuse shes getting now has nothing to do with that and everything to do with her archaic views on players and families.

The story she got was from us. Her opinion that they should have played - clearly there are a few stkilda senior leaders who agree.

which was confirmed by finnis when he admitted discussions took place.

and again, this is only in the media because of us. Otherwise it would have been an opinion piece. Instead it’s now a factual piece. We confirmed the thoughts and conversations took place. Which also confirmed we spoke to her for her to know.

 

[phantom13]

Well he might have. The players lack of competitiveness will cost team mates their careers and plenty of backroom staff their jobs as the club sh*t's itself and makes "statements".

Mate, i love you, youre one of my favourite posters but this is bang average. Hes done whats right by his family you cant put the whole club playing like garbage on him looking after his family.

 

[stavro#4]

Firstly we haven’t got a clue to club spoke her. Could be a third party but secondly if they did and told the whole story then it isn’t a worry the club spoke to her. With the whole story it isn’t a story. I think you would be shocked how many club people speak to journalists

We effectively put our internal debate into the media.

that’s what wasn’t needed and that was confirmed when Finnis said those conversations took place.

If you think that’s not an issue. No worries.
I think that’s senior management 101 and the best senior managers focus on managing below and never above them or putting their dirty laundry in the media.

 

[phantom13]

The story she got was from us. Her opinion that they should have played - clearly there are a few stkilda senior leaders who agree.

which was confirmed by finnis when he admitted discussions took place.

and again, this is only in the media because of us. Otherwise it would have been an opinion piece. Instead it’s now a factual piece. We confirmed the thoughts and conversations took place. Which also confirmed we spoke to her for her to know.

Who? Did we confirm that? I dont recall seeing that.

Im pretty sure if we knew that Lethers shared Caros comments hed be copping a pasting as well.

As it stands right now we know one person who thinks Seb shouldnt have gone home to look after his family, Caroline Wilson, she is rightly copping criticism for that opinion.

 

[gringo2011]

Yeh thats not why shes being criticized though, shes being criticized for he archaic views on this sort of leave.

I think it's not archaic though. This isn't the ANZ bank making women return to work 2 days after giving birth. It's a professional sport that expects players to play unless there are extraordinary circumstances. It's just as much outrage culture to get outraged by her commenting just with an alternative viewpoint.

It isn't normal practice in the AFL to take time off 5 weeks after a baby is born. It's open for people to have an opinion on and doesn't mean she is anti progressive or archaic. She just has a different viewpoint.

To me it's quite reasonable to question the commitment levels of players when it could cost the club millions of dollars missing finals and we were still in unlikely contention. If we finish bottom 4 we will take a huge financial hit, if you follow it on you could say it could fold the club or send us interstate. It's obviously over the top but that is exactly why players don't usually take time out except in extraordinary circumstances.