Autopsy Round 13, 2025: Positives and Negatives vs North Melbourne

[Ambrose Burnside]

Kicking for goal is also supposed to be a process and we can't execute that skill properly and we saw the outcome of that on Sunday.

Only way to get better is to go full OCD David Beckham style

 

[BSD]

If we hadn’t lost our two big men we could easily have beaten Brisbane.Very competitive against Geelong.
Remember a guy called Stewart Lowe aka Buckets. Great mark shit kick for goal.
Went on to be a legend.

Stewart Loewe says hello

And?

You can work on that, especially considering we've been mostly accurate in every other game this year.

Weird thing to cling onto, IMO.

Beg to Differ, in 7 of the 13 games played so far we have kicked 10 points or more and in 5 of those 13 games we have kicked more points than goals. I would hardly call that mostly accurate in every other game this year.
We may not have won many more games but our percentage would be a lot healthier.
As some other experts on this forum have said if you haven't learnt to kick correctly by the time you are 16 you never will improve.

 

[bzparkes]

Beg to Differ, in 7 of the 13 games played so far we have kicked 10 points or more and in 5 of those 13 games we have kicked more points than goals. I would hardly call that mostly accurate in every other game this year.
We may not have won many more games but our percentage would be a lot healthier.

Sure but I wouldn't say we lost any games because of it directly, other than North.

A case could be made for Richmond and Essendon, but they both kicked the same amount of goals as us and both kicked more behinds than us also, so those 2 games are pretty much a coinflip whereas we solely lost to North due to our goal kicking.

 

[Astro7]

The fitness is there, if you make the amount of errors that we currently make then you need to run double what is required because of the error. We constantly are moving forward in good shape then make an error and then all get caught out and look unaccountable. This extra running from mistakes is what is killing us. Good sides don't make these mistakes, handballs to the ground, missed targets, poor decisions to centre the ball and missing targets etc etc. if you keep doing this you will run twice as far as your opponents all day. That is whats happening. It's not a fitness issue.

Agree, if you're playing smart football with good skills, you're conserving energy, it's clear as day.

Also for some others out there, it's worth remembering Harley is getting tagged these days and copping extra attention, may explain some of his seemingly vindictive 'paybacks'...

 

[Astro7]

Not meant like that but more so not just writing off TK winning a F&B. Not really getting the Hate for TK that has been pretty open on here this year.

Same, he's far from perfect and is not alone in underperforming. What some fail to understand is his seniority and leadership (contrary to popular opinion), he is highly regarded amongst the playing group and looked up to by the younger players. We lost two leaders in Gov and Snake and need senior/leaders out there, across the lines.

 

[Selurs]

Sure but I wouldn't say we lost any games because of it directly, other than North.

A case could be made for Richmond and Essendon, but they both kicked the same amount of goals as us and both kicked more behinds than us also, so those 2 games are pretty much a coinflip whereas we solely lost to North due to our goal kicking.

Interesting discussion around accuracy. Having been a very accurate team under Simpson, we're now the third worst for the season.

Also interesting is that five of the bottom six teams also make up the five least accurate teams for the year, so there may be something in that.

The only bottom six teams NOT also at the bottom of the accuracy ladder are North, who are actually second overall for accuracy. If they had been kicking with our accuracy their percentage (currently nearly 80) would drop to 69 (nice), so in that regard it does make a difference.

Be interesting to know if the inaccurate teams are bad because (at least in part) bad kicking is bad footy, or they're inaccurate because they're bad teams. Also, if North are this bad while still being so accurate, how bad are they really?

 

[Goroyals22]

I'd drop Kelly to the WAFL and bring in Long. Better close to goal and can do 10% stints in the middle if needed

Let him stew in the 2s

Better closer to goals… watch that miss in the Geelong game and get back to us.. Kelly should be thrown out but long isn’t an answer to that question

 

[bzparkes]

Interesting discussion around accuracy. Having been a very accurate team under Simpson, we're now the third worst for the season.

Also interesting is that five of the bottom six teams also make up the five least accurate teams for the year, so there may be something in that.

The only bottom six teams NOT also at the bottom of the accuracy ladder are North, who are actually second overall for accuracy. If they had been kicking with our accuracy their percentage (currently nearly 80) would drop to 69 (nice), so in that regard it does make a difference.

Be interesting to know if the inaccurate teams are bad because (at least in part) bad kicking is bad footy, or they're inaccurate because they're bad teams. Also, if North are this bad while still being so accurate, how bad are they really?

I'd imagine it has a lot to do with where and how you're getting your shots, as well as age, experience and fitness of players.

I was going to say we need to get Austin Robertson back but he passed away in 2023

 

[AsterixTheGaul]

Interesting discussion around accuracy. Having been a very accurate team under Simpson, we're now the third worst for the season.

Also interesting is that five of the bottom six teams also make up the five least accurate teams for the year, so there may be something in that.

The only bottom six teams NOT also at the bottom of the accuracy ladder are North, who are actually second overall for accuracy. If they had been kicking with our accuracy their percentage (currently nearly 80) would drop to 69 (nice), so in that regard it does make a difference.

Be interesting to know if the inaccurate teams are bad because (at least in part) bad kicking is bad footy, or they're inaccurate because they're bad teams. Also, if North are this bad while still being so accurate, how bad are they really?

We seem to be taking a higher percentage of shots from deep in pockets which hurts. I don’t have the stats to back up - perception only. And without Sheed, the pockets are harder. The kick around the body works well from the left pocket only.

I think the other thing is confidence. It should start to improve but I’d imagine limited shots on goals, scoreboard pressure and wider angle all impact pressure

 

[Scotland]

Have u watched us handball?

 

[Selurs]

And without Sheed, the pockets are harder.

 

[Bender_]

We seem to be taking a higher percentage of shots from deep in pockets which hurts. I don’t have the stats to back up - perception only. And without Sheed, the pockets are harder. The kick around the body works well from the left pocket only.

Guess it depends if you're on the right side for a left-footer.

 

[Scotland]

Jhye Clark a couple of years ago.

They been very good at identifying mature-aged talent to complement what was already on their list but, and I know people have been saying this for a decade, they massively rely on their older players, like Collingwood are.

They've also done very well to trade in players on the cheap, although they've been burning bridges with other clubs doing that method. Bruhn, Henry(Ollie), Dangerfield, Cameron, Bowes, Smith, Stanley and Stengle are the notable ones off the top of my head who have contributed decently in recent years(sans Martin, who just debuted for the senior team) and a few of those have serious question marks about their off-field character, which Geelong seem more than happy to 'manage'.

They've also drafted a fair bit from their own VFL side, so clearly that's a focus for them.

Geelong also have the advantage of having minimal travel but being the only Vic side with a true home ground advantage, as well as playing plenty of games at the 'G. They play at the MCG more than most Marvel tenants do, for example.

Will be interesting to see how they manage in a post Dangerfield, Blicavs, Stanley, Cameron, Stewart, Duncan era though.

They'll be fine for midfield talent but Neale's bog average and they don't currently have a player like Dangerfield, which is why they'll be desperate to make a play for Reid. Then there's Stewart and their ruck situation, which they've tried to address for as long as I can remember but haven't been able to find anyone decent to replace Stanley. It has led to the interesting tactic they deploy with Blicavs and Stanley though, which has been recently highlighted in the media. Other clubs should take note.

Geelong have balls, we don't. How long were they into Bailey Smith? A year? 18 months? More? Funny how making a commitment applies to Tim Kelly and Liam Baker but not other players.

They are in a unique position of being the only club in Victoria that isn't in Melbourne and not having a salary cap, but look at their trade record.

They gave up picks 17 and 38 for Bailey Smith and pick 45. We gave up pick 3 for Liam Baker, Matt Owies and pick 12.
They gave up picks 9 and 28 for Patrick Dangerfield and pick 50. We gave up picks 14, 24, 33 and a future first for Tim Kelly and a future third.

The only time they gave up a decent trade package was Jeremy Cameron and that's because GWS also have balls, plus due to our generosity and Gold Coast's ineptitude they had a bunch of picks available to trade so it didn't hurt them.

WC are improving on field but aren't going to be a genuine contender again until we improve off it. Ignoring the players selected with the picks, the 2022 trade of pick 3 for picks 9 and 14 (technically it was pick 2 for picks 8 & 12) is the bare minimum of what we should be expecting putting a top 5 pick on the table.

There are rumours about Angus Sheldrick being linked to WC. He was pick 18 in 2021 and has played 18 games in 3 and a half seasons. He's out of contract and a nice to have. Pending final draft order we should have one of our second round picks on offer, max. Watch as we trade Hawthorn's first round pick for him because Don Pyke and Dean Cox have a coffee.

 

[bzparkes]

Geelong have balls, we don't. How long were they into Bailey Smith? A year? 18 months? More? Funny how making a commitment applies to Tim Kelly and Liam Baker but not other players.

They are in a unique position of being the only club in Victoria that isn't in Melbourne and not having a salary cap, but look at their trade record.

They gave up picks 17 and 38 for Bailey Smith and pick 45. We gave up pick 3 for Liam Baker, Matt Owies and pick 12.
They gave up picks 9 and 28 for Patrick Dangerfield and pick 50. We gave up picks 14, 24, 33 and a future first for Tim Kelly and a future third.

The only time they gave up a decent trade package was Jeremy Cameron and that's because GWS also have balls, plus due to our generosity and Gold Coast's ineptitude they had a bunch of picks available to trade so it didn't hurt them.

WC are improving on field but aren't going to be a genuine contender again until we improve off it. Ignoring the players selected with the picks, the 2022 trade of pick 3 for picks 9 and 14 (technically it was pick 2 for picks 8 & 12) is the bare minimum of what we should be expecting putting a top 5 pick on the table.

There are rumours about Angus Sheldrick being linked to WC. He was pick 18 in 2021 and has played 18 games in 3 and a half seasons. He's out of contract and a nice to have. Pending final draft order we should have one of our second round picks on offer, max. Watch as we trade Hawthorn's first round pick for him because Don Pyke and Dean Cox have a coffee.

I get that people are scarred by past trades and indeed, Geelong have been the beneficiary of the Smith trade but to put it in perspective, both Dangerfield and Cameron were RFA's and Geelong ended up trading for both because both GWS and Adelaide matched due to the compo on offer, so they got more than they would've from trading with Geelong than if they'd taken the compensation.

Smith did an ACL and has serious questions about his off field activities and had irreparably running Ned his relationship with the Bulldogs. A number of Melbourne clubs are rumoured to have indicated they wouldn't have even considered him via PSD, so Geelong were able to use that to their advantage.

Now I get the uproar around pick 3 last year and whilst I really like Langford,(who we were rumoured to have favoured) Baker and Graham certainly have helped address our poor standards from previous seasons and are clearly there to help implement the game plan, which is equally as important as young talent. They're also still young enough they'll be around for a few years yet.

How we handle this trade period will be interesting but Pyke said in interviews he was well aware of the fan reaction to trading out pick 3 so I daresay they'll handle things better this time around.

 

[ioppolo]

How many games is he on?

197

 

[Ruben Grubarb]

197

Make him the sub. If Mini isn't using it, may as well make Gov sub and get him to 200.

 

[ziad]

Make him the sub. If Mini isn't using it, may as well make Gov sub and get him to 200.

I wouldn't mind this even if it costs us a game - but it may be against the AFL decree re concussion.

 

[Scotland]

I get that people are scarred by past trades and indeed, Geelong have been the beneficiary of the Smith trade but to put it in perspective, both Dangerfield and Cameron were RFA's and Geelong ended up trading for both because both GWS and Adelaide matched due to the compo on offer, so they got more than they would've from trading with Geelong than if they'd taken the compensation.

Adelaide didn't match, but Geelong had the ability to trade two firsts and did not. You reckon if Chad Warner wants to come to WC at the end of 2027 and we offer picks 9 and 28 the media will say "yeah that's about fair"?

Smith did an ACL and has serious questions about his off field activities and had irreparably running Ned his relationship with the Bulldogs. A number of Melbourne clubs are rumoured to have indicated they wouldn't have even considered him via PSD, so Geelong were able to use that to their advantage.

I don't disagree with any of this but it is all narrative. Tim Kelly was OOC and only going to WC and we not only paid two firsts we added extras into the deal. Where is the narrative driving his value down?

Now I get the uproar around pick 3 last year and whilst I really like Langford,(who we were rumoured to have favoured) Baker and Graham certainly have helped address our poor standards from previous seasons and are clearly there to help implement the game plan, which is equally as important as young talent. They're also still young enough they'll be around for a few years yet.

Baker and Graham have been great, but they still aren't valuable assets. Alex Neal-Bullen was traded under contract for pick 28. If pick 3 is worth 9 and 14 and we traded pick 3 for 14, Baker, Owies then we are valuing Baker and Owies as pick 9 - in a better draft. That's just ridiculous. Carlton were prepared to give up a future first and second just to get a pick that ended up at 17. There are benchmarks for what top 5 picks are worth and we fell well short.

Each to their own but I don't buy the 'we drafted pretty well with 16, 30, 46, 48, 65' argument. You know who does that? Teams that win a lot more games than we have recently. Great if we nailed our picks but it doesn't validate only entering the draft at 16 when you win 5 games. A club with WC's draft hand and list should have been going to the draft with pick 3 or multiple first round picks. NFW Geelong have pick 3 and use it to get Liam Baker.

How we handle this trade period will be interesting but Pyke said in interviews he was well aware of the fan reaction to trading out pick 3 so I daresay they'll handle things better this time around.

Trading out pick 3 is fine if you get value. If Pyke is worried about fan reaction he's not the guy. Do your job, make the right moves to improve the list. If Harley Reid asks for a trade set a ridiculous price, don't 'help him to get where he wants'. Etc.

 

[bzparkes]

Adelaide didn't match, but Geelong had the ability to trade two firsts and did not. You reckon if Chad Warner wants to come to WC at the end of 2027 and we offer picks 9 and 28 the media will say "yeah that's about fair"?

Does it matter what the media says?

I don't disagree with any of this but it is all narrative. Tim Kelly was OOC and only going to WC and we not only paid two firsts we added extras into the deal. Where is the narrative driving his value down?

Freo played a part in pushing his price up, as they were below us on the ladder, so we couldn't threaten PSD. Again, I don't think the 'narrative' matters one iota when it comes to trad price, however we'd failed to get him out the year before, so I understand the commitment to bring him in when he was OOC, even if the price was too much.

Baker and Graham have been great, but they still aren't valuable assets. Alex Neal-Bullen was traded under contract for pick 28. If pick 3 is worth 9 and 14 and we traded pick 3 for 14, Baker, Owies then we are valuing Baker and Owies as pick 9 - in a better draft. That's just ridiculous. Carlton were prepared to give up a future first and second just to get a pick that ended up at 17. There are benchmarks for what top 5 picks are worth and we fell well short.

Initially we'd have only traded 14 for Baker and kept 3 but Hawthorn screwed us over when they traded it away.

We're not valuing Baker and Owies as pick 9, Owies was pretty much an afterthought.

Apaprently, our original target at #14 would've been Shanahan, which is why we kept trying to trade back into the draft but he fell in our lap anyway.

A bit of luck, sure, but I'll take it.

Each to their own but I don't buy the 'we drafted pretty well with 16, 30, 46, 48, 65' argument. You know who does that? Teams that win a lot more games than we have recently. Great if we nailed our picks but it doesn't validate only entering the draft at 16 when you win 5 games. A club with WC's draft hand and list should have been going to the draft with pick 3 or multiple first round picks. NFW Geelong have pick 3 and use it to get Liam Baker.

How could we go to the draft with 'multiple' first round picks? You can't force players out the door in the AFL.

Trading out pick 3 is fine if you get value. If Pyke is worried about fan reaction he's not the guy. Do your job, make the right moves to improve the list. If Harley Reid asks for a trade set a ridiculous price, don't 'help him to get where he wants'. Etc.

What 'value' would we have got if we kept pick 3? An unknown quantity, that's what.

Building a list is done over multiple seasons, not one as our friends at Richmond seem to believe.

Also if Harley does opt to leave, I don't think the club will 'help' him to where he wants to go. Not sure why you'd think that to be the case.

 

[OldBlueEagle]

Leigh Matthews is spot on about the ruck situation. The umpires in the last few minutes let xerri just grab ball, fall to ground and no attepmt to get rid of ball. With 30 sec he did it, no Eagles tackle and still no free after applying tackle and falling to ground. Should be automatic prior opportunity applied in all ruck contests

 

[jdisc]

highlights from the first half

 

[Quinten Kennedy]

Interesting discussion around accuracy. Having been a very accurate team under Simpson, we're now the third worst for the season.

Or 15th best if you're glass half full.

 

[jdisc]

Interesting discussion around accuracy. Having been a very accurate team under Simpson, we're now the third worst for the season.

you mean when we had Kennedy, LeCras, Darling, and Rioli?

 

[BSD]

you mean when we had Kennedy, LeCras, Darling, and Rioli?

They all must have been great kicks at 16 years of age.

 

[jdisc]

They all must have been great kicks at 16 years of age.

they were 16 when they played under simpson?

gee that's impressive