Autopsy Round 14: Hawks fall in a hole v Bombres

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For those defending the McEvoy on Daniher decision, in the second half, Daniher scored more than what the whole Hawthorn team scored.

And the only real significant change was that they kicked in front of him instead of on his head.

As soon as the ball was anywhere else except above McEvoy's head, he was cooked. He tried his guts out, but he was not a good matchup.
I'll defend it, he was BOG to half time. Second half he was spending more time up the ground. You'll notice that most of Danniher's marks and possessions, BB wasn't on him at the time.
 

RoughysMullet

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also worth noting that Worpel's last few weeks (bar that third quarter) has replicated his 2019 BnF form, has been glorious to watch at times after many thought he'd regressed or ... god forbid... stagnated...

i think we need to see howe and cousins laying more tackles, would go a long way to preventing teams going on runs like they did


i really think the biggest lines drawn will be minch unfortunately, he just offered nothing other than a goal that he really should've passed off anyway. feel for the bloke but it's a tough gig and it just doesn't seem like he has it.

Ceglar, meh, Big Boy was close to BoG and i don't think playing him mid fixes any of our actual midfield issues other than maybe getting us a slim win here. Worth noting Ceglar actually lifted in the last quarter and particularly the last 5 minutes when many of our other players went to water and we still got pumped in the clearances. I think our defensive midfield work is much more an issue than our ruckman, particularly with Worpel not playing that role anymore and being more focussed on attacking



it was Shiel right? I noticed Shiel, and a couple other of the Essendon mids, really focussed on grabbing and blocking in the second half which we don't react well to. Same thing happened vs Fremantle with Mundy tearing us a new one by just grabbing, pushing and physically outmatching us. Not too sure how we deal with it , hopefully it's something Sam has noticed and can work on during the offseason — he played that role close to perfection in the 13 GF so he knows a thing or two about how to overcome it
Yeah I think it was Shiel can’t remember now exactly. There was one ball up on the wing where he was tackled and thrown to the ground as the rucks were contesting - right in full view of the umpire - couldn’t believe they didn’t pay anything
 

badboybobba

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to be fair Big Boy didn't play as a ruckman and was close to BOG as an intercept marker so i mean you take out cegs there's no guarantee of a different result

But his best position is in the Ruck, if Chip was available I don’t think we would’ve see Big Boy down back.
We are too slow when we play two ruckman and Big Boy is too valuable with his marks around the ground.
 

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For those defending the McEvoy on Daniher decision, in the second half, Daniher scored more than what the whole Hawthorn team scored.

And the only real significant change was that they kicked in front of him instead of on his head.

As soon as the ball was anywhere else except above McEvoy's head, he was cooked. He tried his guts out, but he was not a good matchup.

The reason they were kicking it in front was dirt to the back of pressure from the midfield. If they don’t play their role the whole system falls apart.
 

Zack

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That is literally Ceglar winning or neutralising his position and our midfielders getting smashed at theirs... Quite baffled at the way some you dweebs see things.

Not really if he had for example 7 tap outs to advantage and 13 tap outs to disadvantage and 10 neutral he would have given Essendon 6 more free possessions than he gave us, I'd take that as a loss. His opponent also had 6 clearances to his 4 another loss.

Especially considering Phillips is a horrid back-up ruckman who's played 20 games in 4 years and on a year to year contract and our bloke got a three year deal worth probably 3 times his wage.

To put it into perspective out of the top 25 Ruck Contest winners this year in the AFL
Ceglar has the 2nd worst hit out to advantage ratio. McEvoy has the highest by a long way.

As an aside now that I've seen the stats, I usually tend to watch the game. Will Day spent the 7th most time on the ground last night and that's for all players both teams. Maybe he isn't as tired as we think maybe he just needed a couple more minutes break here or there like some of our other players got or he missed a couple of substitutions. That is dumbfounding time on ground.
 
Now that I've had time to digest the game, I gotta say, it was probably a good result in the scheme of things, but doesn't make it any less painful.

I think the second half can be put down to a combination of what our midfield is capable of at the moment, and the lack of experience in the squad. You have to remember there are 9 players who weren't in the team round 1 who were all available for selection at the time, 6 with less than 20 games. Yes some of those are now established players (Scrim, Day), but when the heat is on like in an onslaught last night, experience is critical. There's not too many sides that can handle those sort of player turnovers. I'm 90% certain that a team with JOM, Frawley, Stratts, Smith, Sicily, protects our half time lead, regardless of what you think of those players and their form this year.

The lack of onfield leadership when the heat was on was pretty stark. I kept looking for Tom as acting captain to get physical and vocal, but I guess he's just not that sort of leader. It's been the same story all year and probably since Hodge left to be honest. But there are things that leaders and experience brings when there is such a momentum swing, and we just didn't fire a shot in that regard. Just putting a 2015 era Hodge in the backline last night would have changed things drasticaly.

Our midfield is a huge worry. The connection between our inside mids and our runners is basically completely out of whack, and our positioning and run when the ball was there to won just disappeared. Tom and Worps were good in the stoppages, but they were just getting swarmed by Bombers mids who were able to force easy turnovers and spread rapidly. I don't think I've ever seen the ball move so quickly into an oppos 50 before.

Think the ruck conversation has been way overblown. I'm not massive on Ceglar and hope we upgrade, but it wasn't his worst game for us, and he was one of the few busting his gut in the final term when the game was still there to be won. Ill be surprised if BB isn't in the coaches votes.
 

RiverRiver

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Not really if he had for example 7 tap outs to advantage and 13 tap outs to disadvantage and 10 neutral he would have given Essendon 6 more free possessions than he gave us, I'd take that as a loss. His opponent also had 6 clearances to his 4 another loss.

Especially considering Phillips is a horrid back-up ruckman who's played 20 games in 4 years and on a year to year contract and our bloke got a three year deal worth probably 3 times his wage.

To put it into perspective out of the top 25 Ruck Contest winners this year in the AFL
Ceglar has the 2nd worst hit out to advantage ratio. McEvoy has the highest by a long way.

As an aside now that I've seen the stats, I usually tend to watch the game. Will Day spent the 7th most time on the ground last night and that's for all players both teams. Maybe he isn't as tired as we think maybe he just needed a couple more minutes break here or there like some of our other players got or he missed a couple of substitutions. That is dumbfounding time on ground.
If you want to talk stats Ceglar won more key statistics than his opponent IMO but my point is more based on : If we can agree that it’s subjective / open to debate on who won the individual battle of Ceglar vs Phillips but it’s NOT subjective on their mids smashing ours, how is the subjective (Cegs vs Phil) the first thing / the topic that cops the heat?
 
What an absolute flog.
It's in the bank.
He will get 2 for that, I'd think. Maybe down to 1 with a plea.

Not an instinctive thing, premeditated and dangerous
 
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Jan 17, 2008
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He had seven hitouts to advantage same as Phillips, so yes he may have had far more tapouts than Phillips but only seven helped us which means the other 23 were either a neutral or advantaged Essendon. I definitely saw some that went straight to their midfielders. That to me is a pretty big problem to begin with, if he taps the ball to Essendon's advantage it pretty much stuffs up our mids chances of being competitive. When they see his hand on the ball they have to assume he will try to give it to them.

TBH, Tap outs to disadvantage would be one of the most interesting non-stats we currently record (never seen them so assuming that) we could get our hands on.
I saw some go straight to Essendon players but were hit to our normal strike zones. I put the blame on our mids for not getting there. Our mids let the Essendon mids work them away from where they wanted to be and let McGrath just run through the space. It was an ordinary effort.
 

Charchi

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That is ordinary. Imagine the fuss if Sis did it, he got 2 for stepping on a player's leg last year and for those that can remember, Paul Dear got four for breaking Foster's leg years ago with a trip. But then again, Goodes got 'no case to answer' for leg sweeping Gibbo.
 

jameses

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Lucky we’ve got more than 1
A pick 3 and then picks in the 20s and up? Pick 3 could potentially get us a Billings equivalent (🤢), and then the later picks are more of a lottery. I just think if we rely on draft picks it will be a long recovery.
 

jameses

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Lucky we’ve got more than 1
A pick 3 and then picks in the 20s and up? Pick 3 could potentially get us a Billings equivalent (🤢), and then the later picks are more of a lottery. I just think if we rely on draft picks it will be a long recovery.
 

jameses

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Lucky we’ve got more than 1
A pick 3 and then picks in the 20s and up? Pick 3 could potentially get us a Billings equivalent (🤢), and then the later picks are more of a lottery. I just think if we rely on draft picks it will be a long recovery.
 
Jan 17, 2008
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Why do people think we are in line for pick 3? We win against Adelaide and we will probably get pick 5. Sydney have to win at least 1 and maybe 2 games for us to get pick 3.

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A pick 3 and then picks in the 20s and up? Pick 3 could potentially get us a Billings equivalent (🤢), and then the later picks are more of a lottery. I just think if we rely on draft picks it will be a long recovery.
There is no quick solution to where the HFC list is right now. We can ether paper over the cracks or we can do things the right way and if that means taking a dip for a season or 2 then so be it. If we don't take our medicine then I'm afraid we will be just delaying the inevitable. I'd much rather do what Port has recently done by gathering some picks to surround their young vets like Boak / Wines ect with young kids like Rozee, Duursma, Butters. We've got $$$ to spend in our cap and over a third of our list OOC so its not like our list is stuck like it is. It's time for a full renovation and I hope the club has an eye just not on next year by the 4-5 years after that. I want prolonged success not just a chance at maybe making top 8.

Oh and jameses it looks like your post repeated 3 times 🤪
 
Sep 21, 2002
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Why do I think this will be yet another example of a negative tactic that the AFL could choose to stamp out overnight, yet will do nothing and thereby give it tacit approval and you'll have 10 players all doing it next year

Why do they call it "a weird one"? They already have a rule in place that covers deliberate tripping. Exercise it.
 

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