Preview Round 15, 2018: Melbourne v St.Kilda - MCG, Sunday 1st July, 1:10PM AEST

[Saint Watto]

Given the intelligence and common sense contained in your post, I'd say there's 98% chance that you havent repeated anything from other posters...

Touche there VDS66.

 

[NarklesHelmet]

I will counter this sentiment by saying that our best showings this year IMO were with the youngest, most inexperienced outfits running around.

Phillips, Marshall, Austin, Coffield, Rice, White… it was when most of these guys were in the team (forced by injuries) that we were reasonably competitive with top 4 sides like Richmond and West Coast. That Gold Coast win was an absolute furphy.

Even Lonie added a lot more than a mature Mav Weller.

Brown is getting flogged most weeks, yet we are pointing to Austins lack of defensive capabilities and dropping him after one quiet game?

Experience is only valuable if the players can win their own position on the ground or can offer some genuine flexibility like Gilbert… If players like Mav & Brown are getting beaten then they are just modeling rubbish to our youngsters, not leadership.

Yeah gotta agree .

Normally would agree with austinn's post as it was well thought out and logical but by far our best performances this year were the Richmond and West Coast ones: we looked like a normal modern footy team. Quick physical movement and ball movement, taking the game on... the young blokes actually showed how to play modern footy against pressing suffocating zones... it is all about quick unpredictable movement.

I remember before the Richmond and Eagles games I thought we would witness absolute floggings because of the injuries and all the young blokes we had in. But it was the complete opposite... We got a couple back against the Swans and then the Suns and looked considerably worse and more stodgy and defensive in my opinion.

It might just be the natural risk-taking that comes with youth is the way forward against the stifling defenses we see in the comp now. Maybe the Eagles and Richmond performances were anomalies but I get the feeling they weren't.

 

[austinnn]

I will counter this sentiment by saying that our best showings this year IMO were with the youngest, most inexperienced outfits running around.

Phillips, Marshall, Austin, Coffield, Rice, White… it was when most of these guys were in the team (forced by injuries) that we were reasonably competitive with top 4 sides like Richmond and West Coast. That Gold Coast win was an absolute furphy.

Even Lonie added a lot more than a mature Mav Weller.

Brown is getting flogged most weeks, yet we are pointing to Austins lack of defensive capabilities and dropping him after one quiet game?

Experience is only valuable if the players can win their own position on the ground or can offer some genuine flexibility like Gilbert… If players like Mav & Brown are getting beaten then they are just modeling rubbish to our youngsters, not leadership.

It's not really a sentiment, more a logical appraisal.

There's not much of your post that I agree with to be honest, but your second sentence is probably factual.

The stuff about Brown and Weller is your emotive standpoint based on a biased perception that I disagree with, but everyone's got their opinion. Here's mine: I've said this before, but at his best, Mav Weller sets the tone for a combative front half, and you don't see it on the stats sheet but he ruffles feathers on the opposition teams and is able to put enough uncertainty in the air for his teammates to use for their advantage. He's not half the player that Hamill used to be, but he can have that role when he's up.

Brown is doing what we brought him in for, and with Darragh Joyce in the backline, Brown is essential. He isn't fast, but he can limit the effectiveness of a key forward. It will be interesting to see if they'll use Joyce next to Brown, or on the interchange instead of him when he needs a breather. Good first hand experience for the youngster, who is greener than St Patrick, without hanging him out to dry. If only Nathan Brown had been at the club when we blooded Jackson Ferguson.

 

[austinnn]

Yeah gotta agree .

Normally would agree with austinn's post as it was well thought out and logical but by far our best performances this year were the Richmond and West Coast ones: we looked like a normal modern footy team. Quick movement and ball movement, taking the game on... the young blokes actually showed how to play modern footy against pressing suffocating zones... it is all about quick unpredictable movement.

I remember before the Richmond and Eagles games I thought we would witness absolute floggings because of the injuries and all the young blokes we had in. But it was the complete opposite... We got a couple back against the Swans and then the Suns and looked considerably worse and more stodgy and defensive in my opinion.

It might just be the natural risk-taking that comes with youth is the way forward against the stifling defenses we see in the comp now. Maybe the Eagles and Richmond performances were anomalies but I get the feeling they weren't.

Fair enough, but these guys are kids, and surely the coaches/selectors have a better sense of how consistent their players are or how tired they are than us observers.

I don't know, maybe you both are right; those two games certainly were a breath of fresh air, and I'd rather lose playing the right way than squeak it playing a stodgy brand that has no future.

I'm guessing Phillips, Austin, Coffield and Marshall are now being asked to use their experience to consolidate their strengths and work on their deficiencies while under a bit less pressure in the VFL, so they come back more well rounded while we look at some of their teammates. That's probably good development.

 

[Premium]

I will counter this sentiment by saying that our best showings this year IMO were with the youngest, most inexperienced outfits running around.

Phillips, Marshall, Austin, Coffield, Rice, White… it was when most of these guys were in the team (forced by injuries) that we were reasonably competitive with top 4 sides like Richmond and West Coast. That Gold Coast win was an absolute furphy.

Even Lonie added a lot more than a mature Mav Weller.

Brown is getting flogged most weeks, yet we are pointing to Austins lack of defensive capabilities and dropping him after one quiet game?

Experience is only valuable if the players can win their own position on the ground or can offer some genuine flexibility like Gilbert… If players like Mav & Brown are getting beaten then they are just modeling rubbish to our youngsters, not leadership.

Weller and Brown are average - nothing more to be said , a Fullback averaging one kick a game if your lucky and may be a mark - the days where he could stop are key forward like Roo are gone.
lets move forward.
be in saying that they are playing on Sunday so I hope they play well

 

[MUFKilda]

Exactly;

The smart way to play kids is in a balanced team with plenty of experienced team-oriented warriors to guide the younglings and cover their weaknesses, allow them to exhibit their strengths. You need the draught horses to pull the gilded carriage.

Unfortunately we're not in the position of Sydney, Richmond, Geelong etc where their vets are already a formidable outfit, and haven't been since at least 2013, maybe earlier realistically. But we do have a few guys who have been around and they know how to keep their heads when s**t gets real. Why would they be kicking their heels in the VFL when they can actually put their experience to some use?

Newsflash: We will not make finals this year, so the remaining games are about 3 things:
1) giving experience to inexperienced AFL players, and the sensible approach is to do that in short blocks and not all at the same time and based on effort in training and VFL games.
2) Seeing which players on our list are able to play the way our club needs them to, and right now I'd hope that this is just as much Lethlean's call as Richo's, because I'm not sure I want the players to play the way Richo wants them to! Seriously, this should be about not this rubbish "Saints Footy" that we've seen, but the ambitious Saints Footy that we want to see when it all comes together.
3) Giving St Kilda players the experience of competing and winning games or at least getting close - the notion of tanking is counter-intuitive unless you plan on ditching all the players that take you to the bottom and replacing them with top draft picks that are guaranteed to play well together and win games. Nice plan!

The people wailing that putting players like Geary and Gilbert (for example) in the 22 directly contradicts the message laid out in the mid-week meeting between the club heads and long-term members should realise that when Richo was saying all the standard stuff like "it doesn't matter if they are the oldest or the youngest player, if they play the way we want, they get a shot" was actually signalling the opposite of what they'd imagined. It means that even if they are an unfashionable older player, they get a shot if they can sign off on their trademarks or whatnot, because right now we need team players and leaders. So someone like Logan Austin or Rowan Marshall who is exciting and new, but doesn't follow team rules during the game or whatever it is comes out and someone like Jarryn Geary who may not be a fan favourite, or have anything exciting about him, but gets his job done and is dependable in his coaches' and teammates' eyes comes in.

Many are upset because the one saving grace this year has been the fresh and pure youth we've played in our teams; these players already seem far less average than the more established St Kilda players, and there are still some of those in this weekend's 22:

DEBUTANT
Joyce 0 games

FRESH
Battle 3 games
Rice 5 games
Clark 10 games
McKenzie 25 games

ESTABLISHED
McCartin 33 games
Steele 49 games
Gresham 53 games
Sinclair 55 games
Membrey 61 games
Longer 63 games
Billings 76 games
Dunstan 79 games
Ross 94 games

EXPERIENCED
Weller 116 games
Carlisle 117 games
Newnes 126 games
Savage 136 games
Armitage 159 games
Brown 163 games
Steven 167 games
Geary 174 games

But too many of those young players and we look lost and disorganised. That is an even poorer platform on which to exhibit talent, as we have found out this year already. We can't just jam a team full of the best talents on our list, the list has to work as a team first, which is what I inferred from the mid-week meeting.

Austin has had 4 games already this year. Ed Phillips has had 5. White 6, Long 7, Acres 7, Coffield 8. They've had a go this year, we've seen what they can do, but Lethlean said we're going to look over the whole list, which suggests that we might not see them for the rest of the year, as we have other players we need to observe at AFL level. You'd probably say from the emergencies that Paton and Pierce might be the next cabs off the rank, they have had 0 and 1 game respectively in their AFL careers. I'd imagine Goddard and potential debutants Connellan and Freeman may also get a look, possibly Langlands and Clavarino too, though probably not for this year. That's the whole list apart from Webster and the players like Hickey, Gilbert, Lonie, Minch, Wright, etc who we've seen, and the injured Robbo and Koby, who seem likely to retire, sadly.

Lets face it, the reason we're unhappy is not that the young players aren't all playing, but that our established and experienced groups look so sub-average. In the experienced group above, I'd suggest most fans would be happy to see the back of all of them bar Jake and Stuv. Not a good space to be in, but these players are all we have for experience, and like it or not, they are necessary if we have any hope of winning a game.

BTW, I haven't read all the pages of this thread yet, so my apologies if I'm "repeating" something that another poster has since said.

Brilliant post mate

 

[my name was taken]

Spot on. The senior core, talent wise, is utter dogshit. It literally is just Stuv & Jake & that’s it...

There’s no:
JRoo, Rance, Martin, Cotchin
Buddy, Kennedy, McVeigh, Rampe
Nic Nat, McGovern, Kennedy, Gaff
Burgoyne, Mitchell, Roughead, Gunstan
Higgins, Cunnington, Brown, Tarrant

We have 2 senior Stars. Most clubs have 4 at a minimum. That’s why we are ordinary

And that senior core should have been drafted, oh I dunno, about 10 years ago when....
Yes I had to be that guy, but today was ruined by that period and we are still feeling the effects.

 

[NarklesHelmet]

Fair enough, but these guys are kids, and surely the coaches/selectors have a better sense of how consistent their players are or how tired they are than us observers.

I don't know, maybe you both are right; those two games certainly were a breath of fresh air, and I'd rather lose playing the right way than squeak it playing a stodgy brand that has no future.

I'm guessing Phillips, Austin, Coffield and Marshall are now being asked to use their experience to consolidate their strengths and work on their deficiencies while under a bit less pressure in the VFL, so they come back more well rounded while we look at some of their teammates. That's probably good development.

It's a tough one.... I reckon this season has thrown such a curve ball into what I thought I knew about football.... I didn't see the crash coming, had some concerns about coaching but not expecting it to fail so badly etc. The final straw was watching our kids completely bereft of most of our experienced leaders going toe-to-toe with the 2 best sides in the comp and looking like a football team again and pushing them all the way.

Like I said, your post is fantastic and well thought out... but there's so much about the way Richmond do things with backing in kids and the unpredictability kids give that makes me think that kids are the only way to beat these stifling defenses (coupled with the way we played in the 2 matches we excelled in).

I feel we are at a serious cross-roads with our coaching and list in relation to modern footy and tactics. Too many at our club do not have the creativity and skills required to succeed in the current AFL environment. Is age a big factor? Maybe, maybe not. I reckon we will learn the answers to this in the coming weeks.

 

[Rors]

And that senior core should have been drafted, oh I dunno, about 10 years ago when....
Yes I had to be that guy, but today was ruined by that period and we are still feeling the effects.

100%

 

[Dr Spaceman]

If fit Geary has to play.

His teammates chose him to captain the side. He would have to be diabolically out of form for the selectors to even consider dropping him. And although some of his critics may argue his form (or ability) is that poor, the reality is that it's not.

Unless injured, Geary plays out the season.

It is imperative that he does not captain the side next year so that we are not compelled to play him if other, more preferred, options are available. But for that to happen another player really needs to stand up. Or a leader needs to be brought in.

Even though I'm like most supporters and strongly desire to see new, exciting talent come into the side, I understand why Gears is in there and won't waste a second of my time bitching about it.

And I will continue to give him my full support for the great clubman he has been and for the current captain that he is.

 

[tomjoad]

There are some great posts here...particularly like Austinn, Narkles, and KerneIT's. All are valid. This is a strange year bringing in strange times. I would love to play the kids too, but I just don't think they would all collectively last the next 9 rounds without draining out. Yeah, our core group of experienced heads are an ordinary bunch with the exceptions of Stuv & Jakey, but it is that ordinariness that will last the rest of the season without tiring, for that is what they have been trained and drilled to do for the last 6-10 years. They have to be played, because they are the only guys that will get over the line. Stagger the kids, let them play for sure, but also let them get their legs back so that they can play again.

 

[austinnn]

I'm watching this game between the Cats and Dogs, and my word these Footscray kids are exciting...

Fuggit, I've changed my mind! Play the kids Richo! Go for broke, go out swinging!

 

[Joffaboy]

Love the Bulldogs on the mark.

Lol Geelong.

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[austinnn]

Only watched that last 20 mins but that was great to see. So exciting.

What TF is Eddie MacGuire on about, sounds like a rambling old man.

 

[kernelT]

It's not really a sentiment, more a logical appraisal.

There's not much of your post that I agree with to be honest, but your second sentence is probably factual.

The stuff about Brown and Weller is your emotive standpoint based on a biased perception that I disagree with, but everyone's got their opinion. Here's mine: I've said this before, but at his best, Mav Weller sets the tone for a combative front half, and you don't see it on the stats sheet but he ruffles feathers on the opposition teams and is able to put enough uncertainty in the air for his teammates to use for their advantage. He's not half the player that Hamill used to be, but he can have that role when he's up.

Brown is doing what we brought him in for, and with Darragh Joyce in the backline, Brown is essential. He isn't fast, but he can limit the effectiveness of a key forward. It will be interesting to see if they'll use Joyce next to Brown, or on the interchange instead of him when he needs a breather. Good first hand experience for the youngster, who is greener than St Patrick, without hanging him out to dry. If only Nathan Brown had been at the club when we blooded Jackson Ferguson.

If we are talking about biased perceptions I have to say that your description of Weller is more based on emotion than reality… he's not an enforcer, opposition teams would giggle when they see his name in the team sheet, instead a forward who has kicked 3 goals in 8 matches this year and averages 3 tackles per game. He offers so little that people have to summon superlatives that are completely immeasurable fantasy to support his place in the side.

Also at AFL level we can't afford to have a full back sitting on the bench swapping to give Brown a breather. Brown isn't doing what we brought him in for which was to stop key forwards kicking goals, he's getting beaten regularly and offers absolutely nothing the other way which is essential in modern footy.

 

[Saint Watto]

my word these Footscray kids are exciting...

Fuggit, I've changed my mind! Play the kids Richo! Go for broke, go out swinging!

I tuned in for the last 15 mins of the game...……..thought the same thing.

The Dogs have a lot of good kids with good energy.....it was exciting to watch.

How would Bevo have felt when Taylor took the mark and then the siren went.

Oh no.....here we go again!

 

[Premium]

If we are talking about biased perceptions I have to say that your description of Weller is more based on emotion than reality… he's not an enforcer, opposition teams would giggle when they see his name in the team sheet, instead a forward who has kicked 3 goals in 8 matches this year and averages 3 tackles per game. He offers so little that people have to summon superlatives that are completely immeasurable fantasy to support his place in the side.

Also at AFL level we can't afford to have a full back sitting on the bench swapping to give Brown a breather. Brown isn't doing what we brought him in for which was to stop key forwards kicking goals, he's getting beaten regularly and offers absolutely nothing the other way which is essential in modern footy.

Totally agree , but the selectors don't - which is fine because number one pick can go our way

 

[Drake Huggins]

Is he the same Joyce who runs Qantas?- Irish and all that.

No. The Joyce who runs QANTAS is a left legger.

 

[BrutThough]

If we are talking about biased perceptions I have to say that your description of Weller is more based on emotion than reality… he's not an enforcer, opposition teams would giggle when they see his name in the team sheet, instead a forward who has kicked 3 goals in 8 matches this year and averages 3 tackles per game. He offers so little that people have to summon superlatives that are completely immeasurable fantasy to support his place in the side.

Also at AFL level we can't afford to have a full back sitting on the bench swapping to give Brown a breather. Brown isn't doing what we brought him in for which was to stop key forwards kicking goals, he's getting beaten regularly and offers absolutely nothing the other way which is essential in modern footy.

Every full back in the comp has goals kicked on them. And this whole he doesn't offer anything in terms of modern footy thing is a joke.
You know what the objective of modern footy is - its to win and having a strong, experienced and generally reliable full back helps you to do that.

We are already playing one inexperienced key defender, which is enough. When we were forced by circumstances to play Austin and Marshall as our keys, JJK just walked all over them because there was no body to tell them where to go, offer defensive support or actually defend the monster key backs. Joyce is lucky that he gets to debut playing next to someone like Brown because he knows there is someone in the backline with him to support and guide him through the game. If we didnt have Brown down back, and it was Austin and Joyce, they would drown and we would have another "Jackson Ferguson" situation on our hands where Razor Ray has to offer the kid some advice on what to do. Brown isn't our answer as full back for the next ten years but having someone like him showing the way to our younger players is what will help make them better players in the long run.

 

[Drake Huggins]

Yes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Stop hogging the window, plugger.

 

[kernelT]

Every full back in the comp has goals kicked on them. And this whole he doesn't offer anything in terms of modern footy thing is a joke.
You know what the objective of modern footy is - its to win and having a strong, experienced and generally reliable full back helps you to do that.

We are already playing one inexperienced key defender, which is enough. When we were forced by circumstances to play Austin and Marshall as our keys, JJK just walked all over them because there was no body to tell them where to go, offer defensive support or actually defend the monster key backs. Joyce is lucky that he gets to debut playing next to someone like Brown because he knows there is someone in the backline with him to support and guide him through the game. If we didnt have Brown down back, and it was Austin and Joyce, they would drown and we would have another "Jackson Ferguson" situation on our hands where Razor Ray has to offer the kid some advice on what to do. Brown isn't our answer as full back for the next ten years but having someone like him showing the way to our younger players is what will help make them better players in the long run.

I get the theory, but which monster key forwards has brown beaten though? His place in the side is having absolutely no positive bearing on our year and we are not picking horses for courses, he is picked at every single opportunity. We looked no worse with Austin on franklin and lynch than brown.

 

[Premium]

I get the theory, but which monster key forwards has brown beaten though? His place in the side is having absolutely no positive bearing on our year and we are not picking horses for courses, he is picked at every single opportunity. We looked no worse with Austin on franklin and lynch than brown.

Just think about pick one - but the question is who will coach us next year

 

[Drake Huggins]

We want him to become a midfielder and he will get more time playing midfield in the VFL than at AFL level so it is better for him to play at Sandy for a few weeks.

Love the Bulldogs on the mark.

Lol Geelong.

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Should've been a 50 metre penalty, shouldn't it, JB? How can you have a lineup longer than the Rockettes standing the mark?

 

[Dr Spaceman]

I have been staying a kick behind play lately, but i thought Connellin was the Irish lad that was doing all the right things at Sandy, then up pops Joyce.

 

[BrutThough]

I get the theory, but which monster key forwards has brown beaten though? His place in the side is having absolutely no positive bearing on our year and we are not picking horses for courses, he is picked at every single opportunity. We looked no worse with Austin on franklin and lynch than brown.

Austin didnt play on Lynch, it was Carlisle who went on him. And that second half of the Sydney game, Austin was very lucky because despite being matched up on Buddy, he was not paying any attention to Buddy defensively and was ball watching rather than having any defensive responsibility.

Brown had the better of his opponents Rd 1 (Hipwood), 3 (Jenkins), 4 (Hawkins), 5 (Paton), 6 (Roughhead), 8 (whoever Freo's key forward is), 9 (Cox).

He had the better of all these guys. He then missed rounds 10 and 11. Didnt play his best games on Buddy (went off concussed) or Lynch but the rest of his seasons form warrants his selected. Ben Brown (who he had a really good record on before that game) and Hogan are the only other ones this year to beat him.

Your theory that he gets beaten every week is well off the mark.