Autopsy Round 15, 2019: St.Kilda v Richmond

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SaintsSeptember

Hall of Famer
Mar 19, 2008
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Dals always looked a star from day one. Hunter not so much.
Yeah he got a lot of the ball right from the getgo, but.....,.
comparing with the game nearly 20 years ago is not relevant.
The pressure on the ball carrier now is making it harder than ever for young kids to get in and leave their mark.
 

BrutThough

Premiership Player
Oct 2, 2010
4,642
15,984
AFL Club
St Kilda
Different view to you.
He is an ideal hard working third tall who would really be icing on the cake for a team in challenge mode.
Capable of 50+ goals when he is not the outmanned forward.
He is not, and will never be, the main man.
Brereton called him correctly in his first few games as a forward, our "Cameron Mooney".
That is what he is, so look for interest from teams in or around the 8 who need someone of that ilk.
We need him, or someone like him, next to King for the first few years. The opposition had to put a good defender on him and he will work them into the ground, crashing packs and creating opportunities and space for King to grow and develop. It might even help Bruce perform better since there will be less attention on him as the only tall figure.
 

BrutThough

Premiership Player
Oct 2, 2010
4,642
15,984
AFL Club
St Kilda
Riewoldt and Dal Santo have done it again. Both using yesterday to support their claim that Marshall is suited to playing forward because he spent some time there in the last. That is absolutely insane. Did they watch the game? He was in the top three players on the ground. As a ruckman. They have this notion that he is poor at tap work, probably because he didn't dominate it in the first month of the season. He has clearly improved his tap work enormously already. He had 12 hit outs to advantage last week and 14 yesterday.
I laughed when I heard them say that. How does anyone who watched yesterday walk away and think Marshall is anything but a number one ruckman!
 

St Kilda Death

Club Legend
Sep 18, 2013
2,590
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NOLA
I thought I’d look at the experience between the two teams as I see that as a big reason for our last quarter fade outs. Below is the teams as the afl app has them lined up with how many games they have played.

DMac (46) Carlisle (126). Sav (155)
Edwards (244) Lynch (145) Caddy(150)

Wilkie (14) Battle (21) Clark (21)
Lambert (84) Bolton (17) Rioli (66)

Billings (99) Ross (116) Hanna (210)
Ellis (165) Prestia (144) McIntoch (88)

Hind (3) Bruce (105) Sinc (78)
Stack (12) Vlastuin (130) Houli (196)

Gresh (76) Membrey (84) Long (23)
Astbury (118) Broad (43) Grimes (140)

Marshal (25) Dunstan (95) Steele (70)
Soldo (12) Cotchin (226) Martin (214)

Acres (68) Parker (14) Coff (12)
Castagna (65) Chol (3) Short (60)

Paton (10)
Graham (30)

Saints ave games - 66.8
Tigers ave games -106.9

We have a long way to go before we’ll see this groups best.
Great post.
With that in mind, unbelievable we were in it for 3/4s.

Edwards (244)
Cotchin (226)
Martin (214) Hanna (210)
Houli (196)
Ellis (165) Sav (155)
Caddy(150)
Lynch (145)
Prestia (144)
Grimes (140)
Vlastuin (130) Carlisle (126)
Astbury (118) Ross (116) Bruce (105)

Tigers with 4 players <25 games, Saints 9.
 

st_trav_ofWA

Premiership Player
Aug 17, 2015
4,041
11,304
AFL Club
St Kilda
If i was a coach i would consider it smart to listen to my assistants.
If i was a coach under pressure i would certainly be willing to try their idea's.
So...
Do we think the interim coaches just snap their fingers and suddenly the teams can play good footy?
Possibilities.

a) the teams are hyped up like kids on red cordial and will come crashing down.
b) the previous coaches were stubborn asses who wouldn't listen to their assistants, and therefore are not good coaches.
c) the assistants were keeping their own ideas secret, ready to unleash them when it made them look good. So not good coaches.
d) the teams are all robots.. and a simple change of programming made them play good all of a sudden.

I know that teaching a new game plan isn't something you can do in a week.
speaking to a former player (not saints) not that long ago i was ask why is it that the team who sacks the coach comes out the next week and if not win the game play the best footy they have for months in the aftermath of the sacking.. his reply was in two parts one the guys realise thay are all of a sudden all expendable and usually the interim coach throws out the old structures and gets the players to play a more natural game style as way of seeing what they can afford to cut out and what they cant afford to lose ...
 

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SaintsSeptember

Hall of Famer
Mar 19, 2008
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We look the same as 7 years ago when the rebuild started.
Seven years ago:
Hayes
Montagna
Dal Santo
Goddard
Armitage
Steven
Dempster
Gram
Geary
Gilbert
Jones
Riewoldt
Milne
Fisher
Simpkin
Gwilt
McEvoy
Ray
Milera
Blake
Koschitski
Saad

Try to be accurate with your negativity.

And we did look physically smaller than the Tigers.
 

Browny2Carlisle

Club Legend
May 2, 2017
1,214
3,693
AFL Club
St Kilda
Seriously, the only thing Gresh needs to work on as a mid is disposal.
I think he doesn't have much distance in his kicks so he always ends up rushing it and trying to kick way too hard. It's the same issue with his goalkicking. Needs to slow down and realise his limitations and concentrate on what he excels at. When he stops trying to bomb it so hard and lowers his eyes he's our best mid.
 

VDS66

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 4, 2011
19,703
50,012
AFL Club
St Kilda
I laughed when I heard them say that. How does anyone who watched yesterday walk away and think Marshall is anything but a number one ruckman!
Whilst I have no doubt in Roma's ability, I laugh how Roos opinion is gospel when it suits an argument.

When he criticises the game plan, everyone uses it as validation the coach is no good...

When he suggests something supporters don't agree with then he doesn't know what he's talking about.

He mentioned last week that teams try and play there own style in games and not worry too much about the opposition. That went mostly unnoticed.

Anyway, I actually agree on this one. Not because of Marshall, but what happens to us when he is having a rest.

I can see the logic of having another ruck in the team and keeping Roma forward for now.
 

BrutThough

Premiership Player
Oct 2, 2010
4,642
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AFL Club
St Kilda
Whilst I have no doubt in Roma's ability, I laugh how Roos opinion is gospel when it suits an argument.

When he criticises the game plan, everyone uses it as validation the coach is no good...

When he suggests something supporters don't agree with then he doesn't know what he's talking about.

He mentioned last week that teams try and play there own style in games and not worry too much about the opposition. That went mostly unnoticed.

Anyway, I actually agree on this one. Not because of Marshall, but what happens to us when he is having a rest.

I can see the logic of having another ruck in the team and keeping Roma forward for now.
I don't see how us needing another tall target on the field equates to making Marshall a forward who pinch hits in the ruck and bringing in a different ruckman.

Marshall plays his best football when in the ruck. His best attributes suit being around the ball as much as possible. He as the running capacity to outwork many other ruckman. Keep him where he is playing his best football.

Find someone else who can play that role while Marshall is having a rest and keep Marshall in his best role.
 

The_Steadier

Norm Smith Medallist
May 6, 2009
5,851
10,283
AFL Club
St Kilda
He is incredibly lucky that McCartin and King are injured or he'd be in the 2s. Sorry but his efforts are lazy, he doesn't present hard, he doesn't chase hard, he is a lazy footballer going through the motions and holding us back from being a better side. How many tackles today? Yes, zero. 4 marks. 2 frees against none for. Seems obvious to me, he clearly has some fans here which is great but the reality is he is a very average footballer.
So tackles is a measure of how lazy/unlazy a player is?

Geez no wonder we never won a flag with that riewoldt spud- he was 30% lazier than that lazy slug bruce!

701605
 

The_Steadier

Norm Smith Medallist
May 6, 2009
5,851
10,283
AFL Club
St Kilda
Have stayed away for a few weeks intentionally to try and get some perspective on this club. Thankfully I think I have now got to the point where I can just accept where we are at. Today was an absolute blueprint St.Kilda performance that just reinforced (to me anyway) that for all the surface noise, we have simply not improved at all this year.

15 rounds in and:

· We have 10 scores between 76 & 66. 70 again today. In total, we have scored 2 more goals than we had at the same point last year
·
We have given up the second most points of any team. This time last year we had also given up the second most points of any team
·
We are bottom 4 on percentage and 10% off the next best. Last year we were also bottom 4 on percentage and 8% off the next best
·
We are 2-6 in the VFL against AFL aligned sides. Last year we also had 2 wins, making us 4-16 across the last 18 months


That is pretty much identical reading. Basically, the only difference I can see is that we have had a better draw this year. Yes we have 3 wins instead of 6 (woohoo), but three wins have come against GC or Carlton, and 5 of those 6 wins have been by 13 points or under.

We are exactly the same mediocre, dour, try really hard to be average football team that we have been for 4 years. Results fluctuate marginally, but we belong somewhere between 10th and 16th. We haven’t really improved at all.

But I have to say, it was nice to watch today having accepted that we haven’t improved, and without being as emotionally invested as normal.

Ordinarily I would be really upset about giving up 100+ points for the 4th time in 6 weeks. Or watching Ross hit his 10,000th nine iron into forward 50 this season. Or watching Long TWICE mark on 50, then ignore the handball to Savage and proceed to completely miss everything. Or watching McKenzie attempt to play football.

But simply embracing that this is the standard we now accept as a club makes it much easier to watch. I can’t change or influence anything, so just accepting that Richo is coach, Ross is captain and we try really hard but aren’t very good at football is somewhat liberating. Accepting that we won’t get any better anytime soon also allows me to lower my expectations, and I now just accept that being barely mediocre is actually okay.

Not sure if it qualifies me as ECO, but I just don’t think I give a F**k anymore. And I really don’t think I will until something pretty significant changes
Mate I think you just wrote the "how to" instructional guide on emotionally checking out
 

The_Steadier

Norm Smith Medallist
May 6, 2009
5,851
10,283
AFL Club
St Kilda
I thought I’d look at the experience between the two teams as I see that as a big reason for our last quarter fade outs. Below is the teams as the afl app has them lined up with how many games they have played.

DMac (46) Carlisle (126). Sav (155)
Edwards (244) Lynch (145) Caddy(150)

Wilkie (14) Battle (21) Clark (21)
Lambert (84) Bolton (17) Rioli (66)

Billings (99) Ross (116) Hanna (210)
Ellis (165) Prestia (144) McIntoch (88)

Hind (3) Bruce (105) Sinc (78)
Stack (12) Vlastuin (130) Houli (196)

Gresh (76) Membrey (84) Long (23)
Astbury (118) Broad (43) Grimes (140)

Marshal (25) Dunstan (95) Steele (70)
Soldo (12) Cotchin (226) Martin (214)

Acres (68) Parker (14) Coff (12)
Castagna (65) Chol (3) Short (60)

Paton (10)
Graham (30)

Saints ave games - 66.8
Tigers ave games -106.9

We have a long way to go before we’ll see this groups best.
Problem being- we've been rebuilding for 8 years already.

"This group" wont be around in a couple of years.

Guys like billings, carlisle, steele, acres, savage etc will be all but impossible to keep if we don't start playing finals asap.
 

tomsimpkin31

Premiership Player
Jun 15, 2011
4,326
3,466
Melbourne
AFL Club
St Kilda
Other Teams
Manchester United, Bushrangers
Pointless to get worked up over it now, but I cannot get over the Chol goal from the throw in. Rewatching it, the umpire literally yells out 'no St Kilda ruckman. At that stage, the boundary umpire hadn't even begun to start his action. The umpire then yells it out again and every single St Kilda player stands there doing nothing. Finally the boundary ump throws it in and for a third time, the field ump yells no St Kilda ruckman. I just cannot wrap my head around this. Are they too nervous to say anything? Are they lazy and assume someone else will work it out? Are they not switched on and don't even hear the ump (despite him saying it three times). Looking at the below image of the stoppage, Dunstan, Wilkie or Paton simply have to do something here. All three are unmanned at the stoppage and have a clear view of what is happening. Hannebery, Savage and Ross you can understand are focused on their opponent. Of course, it stems in the first place from a clear communication breakdown between Marshall and Bruce. Marshall was the ruck about 60 seconds prior to this contest and going by Richo's presser, I'd say he yelled out to Bruce who didn't hear and Marshall assumed he did. A shocking minute all round that results in a costly consequence.

701608
 

StCicatriz

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 3, 2016
15,928
29,072
AFL Club
St Kilda
Seb Ross's half time interview was hilarious. It was like he didnt realise that at half time of the previous weeks game we were right in it too, but apparently they were already much improved on the previous weeks showing.
 
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