Autopsy Round 15, 2019: St.Kilda v Richmond

cooperrules

Norm Smith Medallist
May 18, 2012
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Seven years ago:
Hayes
Montagna
Dal Santo
Goddard
Armitage
Steven
Dempster
Gram
Geary
Gilbert
Jones
Riewoldt
Milne
Fisher
Simpkin
Gwilt
McEvoy
Ray
Milera
Blake
Koschitski
Saad

Try to be accurate with your negativity.

And we did look physically smaller than the Tigers.
My bad make that 5 years ago
 

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St Kilda Death

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Sep 18, 2013
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Why cant we play bruce, king and marshall in the same forward?
West coast play kennedy, darling and a 2nd ruck.

We definitely need another contested marking player up there.

I think Marshall looks like long term ruck but if he can help our fwdline it may be easier to get goldy/sauce for a few years than find a competent big fwd.
Better for both Marshall and kings bodies in the long run
 

lewdogs

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Big night on the turps im guessing or you need spec savers , one of the two
Find it amusing that by suggesting Bruce is poor I suddenly have no idea about football. Meanwhile people two weeks ago saying Clark is a bust. Surely we are all entitled to an opinion without being ridiculed? Maybe labelling him as 'lazy' wasn't the right word, but he plays without a lot of intensity and seems to me to make dumb decisions. His lead patterns are messy. If the kick to him isn't perfect he often gets outmarked. He gives away unnecessary free-kicks.

At the end of the day that's just my opinion and I really don't understand why a player like Bruce, one of our senior guys, is beyond reproach. End of the day he isn't losing his spot anytime soon because he's doing second ruck duties but I really hope he tries to improve as a player because we need him to be much better.
 

pebblesofsand

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King - Marshall -Membrey as our talls with Goldie ruck and trade Bruce out for a half decent pick.
Who says Marshall is not 50 - 60 goal forward remember Bruce came to us as a CHB
Not saying this will happen but we need to try/do something different next year after this year and last
And i personally rate what Roo & Dal say about Footy.
No no no - he has only improved in the skillset that is relevant to being a ruckman. Can't possibly be played anywhere else.

Looks bad for Hunter then - hbf for him from now on.

Nick Hind was was our best running defender at VFL, now he's our leading small forward at AFL level - disgraceful by the selection committe - he should never been selected there.
 

plugger66

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You've always argued that hit outs are useless, so why not have a specialist ruck and let Marshall play as a follower and relief ruck?
Because I’ve always argued getting the ball around the ground is vital
Can’t fit king, Bruce, Marshall and membrey in so it makes sense to listen to offers for Bruce.

Goldstein is a free hit and a bloody good player, I guess it depends on what sort of offers Bruce gets. Seems like a waste of time unless it’s a good pick wasn’t the rumour Collingwood were interested last year for a late first rounder.
so marshall rucks 5 or so minutes a quarter. How does that develop his ruck work when goldy retires in 2 or 3 years. Surely we learnt from Melbourne getting pruess. That plan went out the goor when they realised Gawn had to be the sole ruckman.
 

plugger66

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Find another competent ruckman - and then we can test my theory (and apparently Rooey's and Dal's) that Marshall may have actually improved as a FOOTBALLER and COULD provide more value to the team as a forward/ruck rather than simply playing as a ruckman.

But then again - maybe the answer is that he's only improved in those areas that are relevant to rucking and hasn't advanced in any way in forward skills. (Like marking and kicking goals from outside 50)

Every time Bruce or Acres went into the ruck on Sunday we got destroyed - thankfully the club are trying to redress that situation.
Is that last bit fact. Seems like an opinion. Funny but he marked and kicked that goal from outside when rucking. Rucks are allowed to kick goals.

Is goldy better than Marshall now. Doubtful. And more doubtful next year. Is Bruce better than Marshall as a contesting forward. I would say yes. So it makes the side weaker for 80% of the match and stronger for 20%. Doesn’t add up to me.
 

VDS66

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Because I’ve always argued getting the ball around the ground is vital

so marshall rucks 5 or so minutes a quarter. How does that develop his ruck work when goldy retires in 2 or 3 years. Surely we learnt from Melbourne getting pruess. That plan went out the goor when they realised Gawn had to be the sole ruckman.
Goldy gets two years.

We get Ben King.

Marshall keeps learning.

Goldy retires.

Marshall takes over numbervone ruck spot with 2 Coleman's to his name.

I see him as a Spider type.
 

plugger66

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Goldy gets two years.

We get Ben King.

Marshall keeps learning.

Goldy retires.

Marshall takes over numbervone ruck spot with 2 Coleman's to his name.

I see him as a Spider type.
He is the closest to spider we have had but unlike spiders time most sides play one ruck. If they did back then I have no doubt spider would have Ben that one ruck
 

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The_Steadier

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+19 down on average is a poor measure.

You need to look at the differentiation against stronger teams.

We do ok against poorer teams.
Not to mention we overpossess coming out of defence switching across the ground over and over- meaning our total team possessions per game is very flattering.

Our mids get far less of the ball than the opposition.

If i can be bothered ill do a possession count of our midfielders this year vs the opposition.

Given that total team possessions we average around 5% less (-19) than the opposition, despite us doing ok against the crap teams and overpossess in defence...

I'd estimate our midfield is probably 20-25% down on possessions compared head to head with the opposition.

How on earth this doesn't rate a mention by richo and/or anyone else baffles me.

It's the fundamental reason we lose games- we don't have the ball!
 

Diehard Saint

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Find it amusing that by suggesting Bruce is poor I suddenly have no idea about football. Meanwhile people two weeks ago saying Clark is a bust. Surely we are all entitled to an opinion without being ridiculed? Maybe labelling him as 'lazy' wasn't the right word, but he plays without a lot of intensity and seems to me to make dumb decisions. His lead patterns are messy. If the kick to him isn't perfect he often gets outmarked. He gives away unnecessary free-kicks.

At the end of the day that's just my opinion and I really don't understand why a player like Bruce, one of our senior guys, is beyond reproach. End of the day he isn't losing his spot anytime soon because he's doing second ruck duties but I really hope he tries to improve as a player because we need him to be much better.
Quite clearly Dermie is earning his money much like Dixon is :rolleyes:
 

plugger66

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Not to mention we overpossess coming out of defence switching across the ground over and over- meaning our total team possessions per game is very flattering.

Our mids get far less of the ball than the opposition.

If i can be bothered ill do a possession count of our midfielders this year vs the opposition.

Given that total team possessions we average around 5% less (-19) than the opposition, despite us doing ok against the crap teams and overpossess in defence...

I'd estimate our midfield is probably 20-25% down on possessions compared head to head with the opposition.

How on earth this doesn't rate a mention by richo and/or anyone else baffles me.

It's the fundamental reason we lose games- we don't have the ball!
Im guessing but last year we had many more possessions and probably more than other midfields yet that didn't help us win. The stats aren't the issue, its the ball use and lack of run from the mids.
 

pebblesofsand

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Is that last bit fact. Seems like an opinion. Funny but he marked and kicked that goal from outside when rucking. Rucks are allowed to kick goals.

Is goldy better than Marshall now. Doubtful. And more doubtful next year. Is Bruce better than Marshall as a contesting forward. I would say yes. So it makes the side weaker for 80% of the match and stronger for 20%. Doesn’t add up to me.
"Is Bruce better than Marshall as a contesting forward." Depends what parameters you are applying for the sake of the argument.

Are you talking about this years Bruce V last years Marshall or next years Marshall v Bruce from a couple of years ago? (See your comments re Marshall v Goldstein)

Just on Marshall - his goal kicking accuracy is 75% this year, last year it was was 32% - is that because he's now purely a ruckman and last year he was playing as a forward?

And the last point - well it is a statement of fact.
 
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The_Steadier

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Im guessing but last year we had many more possessions and probably more than other midfields yet that didn't help us win. The stats aren't the issue, its the ball use and lack of run from the mids.
We had a truckload more uncontested possessions last year- that pushed our total possession numbers way up.

We were stone cold last for contested possessions last year and aren't far off that again this year.

The needle hasn't shifted- our midfield are still second to the ball way more than the opposition every week.
 

plugger66

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We had a truckload more uncontested possessions last year- that pushed our total possession numbers way up.

We were stone cold last for contested possessions last year and aren't far off that again this year.

The needle hasn't shifted- our midfield are still second to the ball way more than the opposition every week.
I don't know to be honest but I reckon that's because of lack of ability more than any other reason. Our best midfield didn't miss a game last year. They have missed about 30 this year.
 

Yawkey way

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Because I’ve always argued getting the ball around the ground is vital

so marshall rucks 5 or so minutes a quarter. How does that develop his ruck work when goldy retires in 2 or 3 years. Surely we learnt from Melbourne getting pruess. That plan went out the goor when they realised Gawn had to be the sole ruckman.
Goldstein is fairly versatile you can’t compare him to pruess.
 

triggering bro

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I do love that whenever Riewoldt says something, there is always a ground swell of people who instantly claim to have always have had the same opinion.
I don’t agree with what he said about Marshall but I agree with most of the other stuff he says regarding footy. He easily provides the best footy analysis in the media. I think he’s actually ruining David Kings media career with King having that niche as Fox Footy’s analysis guy until Roo came along & is now the big dog. Personally, I’m proud that an ex Saints legend & skipper is doing great things post footy & getting a high amount of respect for it. But that’s just me.
 

Yawkey way

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Not to mention we overpossess coming out of defence switching across the ground over and over- meaning our total team possessions per game is very flattering.

Our mids get far less of the ball than the opposition.

If i can be bothered ill do a possession count of our midfielders this year vs the opposition.

Given that total team possessions we average around 5% less (-19) than the opposition, despite us doing ok against the crap teams and overpossess in defence...

I'd estimate our midfield is probably 20-25% down on possessions compared head to head with the opposition.

How on earth this doesn't rate a mention by richo and/or anyone else baffles me.

It's the fundamental reason we lose games- we don't have the ball!
I’d be interested to see what you find, someone had a podcast with our stats guru up it’s hard to believe the coaching group aren’t all over it.
 

BrutThough

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I don’t agree with what he said about Marshall but I agree with most of the other stuff he says regarding footy. He easily provides the best footy analysis in the media. I think he’s actually ruining David Kings media career with King having that niche as Fox Footy’s analysis guy until Roo came along & is now the big dog. Personally, I’m proud that an ex Saints legend & skipper is doing great things post footy & getting a high amount of respect for it. But that’s just me.
Nick is great to listen to and provides so many great insights into football. We are lucky to have someone so dedicated and insightful in the media.

But there is a difference between respecting and appreciating his insight, and just blatantly taking everything he says as gospel and claiming you have always thought that way. A lot of people tend to lean towards the second instance when it comes to him.

It's just the same as always dismissing something just because certain media personality said it - just because you don't like the guy doesn't mean they cant provide some good opinions and insights into a topic.
 

triggering bro

Norm Smith Medallist
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Nick is great to listen to and provides so many great insights into football. We are lucky to have someone so dedicated and insightful in the media.

But there is a difference between respecting and appreciating his insight, and just blatantly taking everything he says as gospel and claiming you have always thought that way. A lot of people tend to lean towards the second instance when it comes to him.

It's just the same as always dismissing something just because certain media personality said it - just because you don't like the guy doesn't mean they cant provide some good opinions and insights into a topic.
Yes agree but it’s human nature to be drawn to those you respect. Call it confirmation bias or whatever. But it’s difficult to avoid so if you can follow someone that is usually spot on, which I believe Roo is, then all the better.

On your last paragraph, agree however there are certain exceptions - see Purple & King!
 

70s sainter

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Twice Martin dropped the ball - wasn’t paid , then resulted in goals for them
Umpires absolutely favour Martin when he busts thru packs and drops the ball
 

Jade Buddha

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Marshall tends to kick a goal a match as a ruck, I think you'll find his figures are similar as a forward. So putting him in the forward line just reduces his impact.
 
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