Autopsy Round 15, 2020: Hawks lose to the Crows

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Bugs1977

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I mean, this was predictable. I don't know what Clarko thought would happen by omitting blokes who actually performed well last week and bringing back in the old brigade but it panned out essentially as I thought it would. I wasn't even upset about it.

On the plus side, Scrimshaw is showing what he can do when given more responsibility, and he'll continue to get better as a footballer in 2021.

All of this said - I'm still not certain that this is the end for the Hawks. We've still got enough good players at the right ages to give the finals a good tilt for a few years, all we need is a refresh.
With out having to come out and say I think Clarko knew exactly what was going to happen. He pretty much said in the below article that winning albeit valuable isn't the be all end all with where we find ourselves this season. Read between the lines mate… we weren't trying to win that game last night and are just going through the motions to get this COVID affected season over and done with. The cue has finally been put in the rack (hopefully not too late draft pick wise) and the main mistake Clarko is making I feel is not blooding a new youngster while the season is shot. I got a gut feel we'll finally see Finn debut against the Saints on Sunday.

 

darthmann

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Yeah Scully was good. If only the inside mids could have won more of the ball and pressured the opposition a bit, he may have got more ball on the outside...
yeah idk what's going wrong in there, because you can't solely blame Cegs not winning hitouts on our inability to win contested ball and clearances — during our 3peat we routinely lost the hitout and contested disposal count but were never smashed around the ball/clearances like this.

im guessing its a defensive problem more than offensive — an unwillingness to apply the required pressure to oppo mids
 

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Luv_our_club

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There is a reason he and glass and some others are playing ahead of guys like Moore, Ross and Walker. We are looking at them with a view of making a decision on them when lists are cut.
For that reason I expect to see Morrison back in the team soon.
 

Quacker5

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well i thought he was our most dangerous player when he had the ball so that would suggest they were influential

he also laid a really hard tackle and copped a hit or two

scully has been worthy of criticism this year but the fact people are still calling for his head after his performance last night just shows the degree of bias that the game is being watched with. there were probably 15-16 players that deserve to be dropped before scully based on yesterday's performance, yet most people are only on about Scully, Stratton, Ceglar, and TOB.
Well yes, my feelings are off the back of reviewing his body of work this season - whilst last night may not have been his worst performance, nor Ceglars, there are systemic issues that they are characteristic of.

You can't throw them in at once, but I just want to discover who is mediocre on our list and who may hope of being better than that, and continuing to select players whose ceiling has been reached and simply won't be Hawthorn premiership players is frustrating. I'll spew up if I read more justification of O'Brien's spot in the side at this stage of the season
 

Bugs1977

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You guys have had a very good run for a very long time, it had to end at some stage.

What path your club embarks on from here will be interesting to watch and the question a lot of people want to know, will Clarko stick around to oversee a big rebuild if that is the course chosen ??
Over 1/3 of our list is out of contract so if done correctly this offseason the rebuild as you call it doesn't have to be Carlton type one. Our list manager just needs to be ruthless cutting the deadwood and add some guys from other clubs that fit better. We have a decent enough core to move forward with so don't get too excited about us being down for too long. FWIW we are in our worst rut in over 15 years an you guys only have 2 more wins than we do 🤪
 

savagelunchbox

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The most annoying thing I feel, having to sit through that trash performance was just how trash it was.

I know that we were tanking, but it was baaaaad tanking. Unmotivated tanking.

Not only was it tanking using players who have emotionally checked out, but those who show no interest in mentoring or leading the young players. Frawley and Stratton never spoke to the defensive unit and hardly ever made eye contact with their teammates when getting together as a group after goals.

Then there's how we played. We played the same, tired, useless gameplan of hugging the boundary line with high kicks to Riley O'Brien. That style that makes you wonder if Clarko left the passcode to get us access to the middle of the ground on his bedside table. Why not try a different style of play? It's not like they needed to have mastered it. Trial a few modern things in how we play. At least then, the unmotivated have a reason to try and find some motivation instead of moping around the field, refusing the chase their opponents.

It's a style of tanking where you can't take any positives out of it. Yeah, Scrimshaw was encouraging, but he's been encouraging all season. Where's the new encouragement from this game?

The way we were coached to play, with the intention of losing for draft picks, playing a boring, stagnant, old-fashioned style of football is the best way of losing the respect of the players. Once that happens, it's hard to get it back.
 
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Rob R

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What did we all expect really?

We are decimated. We just lost our best player in Sic, and have a bunch of seasoned players out in Frost Jaeger Hendo, Smith, shiels.. as well as Day who is performing like one. On the park their replacements are basically blokes auditioning to not be cut in Hanrahan, Glass, Cousins (who might be safe) o brien ect. Then we have a bunch of cooked senior players in Stratton, Frawley and maybe now Burgoyne, and 2 decent players in Lewis & Impey who have just had injury interrupted years.

Our list has holes but god damn teams need luck sometimes and we have had none. The team we fielded today had every chance of losing. Why are we so upset or surprised.

Also on Minchington, he is 26. He was in our bests today, and i wouldnt be against offering him a contract for next year. Chances are we will have alot of holes, none of the other forward pockets deserve games. Don't know why he is copping it. Anyone can see that hes a far more solid and afl ready player than hanrahan, glass, obrien and with a bit of luck could still be a player with 5 seasons in him
Agree, Minchington showed more than some others and actually looked like creating opportunities.

On SM-G570F using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

Maybloomer

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IMO, the Crows didn't win because they're more talented or experienced or have a better structure. They just wanted it more. 90% of the win came from above the shoulders. The other 10% was probably a better fitness level but going smarter not harder can still win you games.

Hawthorn have mentally switched off, you can see it in the application, 2nd efforts, kick and handball efficiency, confidence etc etc. It's an fairly simple fix that doesn't involve sacking everyone from the boss to the bootstudder but they need to be in the right environment. It can be a very fine timeline between sh*te and shiny (or is that polished) as we saw in the Bombers game. We won't see a change until 2021 bar a few patches but once they get their heads right, their bodies will follow
 

bindas12

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Its a big worry that Clarko keeps reminding everyone that we had a great run late last year and that we were 3-1 early this year..Clearly he thinks we are not far from being competitive. So he may go down the top up route again this year as oppose to going all in to the draft..
 

Hawk Dork

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Its a big worry that Clarko keeps reminding everyone that we had a great run late last year and that we were 3-1 early this year..Clearly he thinks we are not far from being competitive. So he may go down the top up route again this year as oppose to going all in to the draft..

Clarkson aims to utilise free agency and rookie-list depth to mould Hawthorn's next relaunch rather than rely principally on the draft, which he slammed as "compromised" and "not pure".
"What is frustrating for coaches and clubs is there's not a pure draft anymore," he said. "The draft is so compromised with father-sons and academies, it's a bugbear of mine.
"There are two clubs up there [Queensland] that get the whole state in terms of access to junior talent in a national competition that's meant to have equality.
"Sydney and GWS share the whole of NSW in terms of any talent that comes through that state.

"People say 'why don't you just rebuild and go to the draft' ... you can't go to the draft, it's so compromised. You have to do it with other mechanisms like free agency and the depth of your rookie list."

 

Noel Gallagher

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Clarkson aims to utilise free agency and rookie-list depth to mould Hawthorn's next relaunch rather than rely principally on the draft, which he slammed as "compromised" and "not pure".
"What is frustrating for coaches and clubs is there's not a pure draft anymore," he said. "The draft is so compromised with father-sons and academies, it's a bugbear of mine.
"There are two clubs up there [Queensland] that get the whole state in terms of access to junior talent in a national competition that's meant to have equality.
"Sydney and GWS share the whole of NSW in terms of any talent that comes through that state.

"People say 'why don't you just rebuild and go to the draft' ... you can't go to the draft, it's so compromised. You have to do it with other mechanisms like free agency and the depth of your rookie list."

Thats all well and good but if we trade out our first pick for an "established player" I will loose my $hit. If anything Will Day has rammed home the point of keeping your first round picks. We have a very very talented player at the club for the next 12-13 years potentially
 

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Gohawthorn13

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How do you know we will be much better next season? That's what everyone said last season, but look at us now. The difference is laughable.

We had threads taking the piss out of people that suggested we were a middle of the road side, at best.

We can take a lot out of the season - some players are cooked. Some players are just not up to it and seemingly the coaching isn't either as the game plan needs a drastic change.
[/QUOTE
How do you know we will be much better next season? That's what everyone said last season, but look at us now. The difference is laughable.

We had threads taking the piss out of people that suggested we were a middle of the road side, at best.

We can take a lot out of the season - some players are cooked. Some players are just not up to it and seemingly the coaching isn't either as the game plan needs a drastic change.
This season because of COVID we’ve been the hardest hit by curcumstance, but your right there are no guarantees but I believe there more talent there than what they are serving up and when things get back to normal you’ll see a better hawthorn, not saying they don’t need to get youth in but to say drastic change is needed is wrong. 3-4 older guys out 3-4 younger guys in.
 

thejockey

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IMO, the Crows didn't win because they're more talented or experienced or have a better structure. They just wanted it more. 90% of the win came from above the shoulders. The other 10% was probably a better fitness level but going smarter not harder can still win you games.

Hawthorn have mentally switched off, you can see it in the application, 2nd efforts, kick and handball efficiency, confidence etc etc. It's an fairly simple fix that doesn't involve sacking everyone from the boss to the bootstudder but they need to be in the right environment. It can be a very fine timeline between sh*te and shiny (or is that polished) as we saw in the Bombers game. We won't see a change until 2021 bar a few patches but once they get their heads right, their bodies will follow
It was evident 5 minutes in that one team were desperate to win and the other seemed flat, off the pace , not switched on or whatever anyone wants to call it.
 

Adelaide Hawk

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At the time we made that trade Clarkson would have been confident our list could contend. He wasn't looking to rebuild. And in fairness to him it wouldn't have been unreasonable to suggest that. We had just finished top 4, and while we went out in straight sets we did have injury to key personnel during that finals series. Bringing in Wingard was a move we made because we thought we were entering our Premiership window.

As we know things didn't work out that way. I can't begrudge the club or Clarkson for making these list decisions because we have the benefit of hindsight. And to be honest I'm not unhappy with how things went - Pick 18 + 35 would have been nice but there's no guarantee those picks would have amounted to anything and while Burton is going to be a solid defender Scrimshaw has proven himself more than capable in the role. Wingard is hot and cold but he's one of the only players left on our list with any spark. We overpaid but we always overpay for our trade targets.

I just hope the club realises now that we have deficiencies in our list that were being papered over before COVID hit. Topping up should no longer be the strategy - we have to go back to the draft to try and fill requirements. This doesn't necessarily mean we have to spend 5 years rebuilding (I think the wacky situation of this season has also exacerbated our issues) but a solid 2/3 years of trying to find the necessary pieces may be required.
Well, I'm no draft and trade expert, but with me it isn't hindsight. I said it at the time. If people only knew how green with envy the Adelaide based clubs were that we snared Burton, they were spewing. And then we just give him back? Nope, I said at the time it was a mistake, and the longer time passes, it only confirms my opinion.
 

savagelunchbox

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Well, I'm no draft and trade expert, but with me it isn't hindsight. I said it at the time. If people only knew how green with envy the Adelaide based clubs were that we snared Burton, they were spewing. And then we just give him back? Nope, I said at the time it was a mistake, and the longer time passes, it only confirms my opinion.
What about if it was a straight Burton for Wingard trade? No draft picks involved.
 

thejockey

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Over 1/3 of our list is out of contract so if done correctly this offseason the rebuild as you call it doesn't have to be Carlton type one. Our list manager just needs to be ruthless cutting the deadwood and add some guys from other clubs that fit better. We have a decent enough core to move forward with so don't get too excited about us being down for too long. FWIW we are in our worst rut in over 15 years an you guys only have 2 more wins than we do 🤪
We picked a weaker side for last night then we did in the previous games
Rested Frost and Day who are arguable in our best 3-5 performers 😳

Everyone in the media was saying we picked our strongest possible side to win , I saw it very differently .
We are clearly rotating older players and the like as auditions to stay on the list .

Last night would have aided with the cull.
 

Adelaide Hawk

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IMO, the Crows didn't win because they're more talented or experienced or have a better structure. They just wanted it more. 90% of the win came from above the shoulders. The other 10% was probably a better fitness level but going smarter not harder can still win you games.

Hawthorn have mentally switched off, you can see it in the application, 2nd efforts, kick and handball efficiency, confidence etc etc. It's an fairly simple fix that doesn't involve sacking everyone from the boss to the bootstudder but they need to be in the right environment. It can be a very fine timeline between sh*te and shiny (or is that polished) as we saw in the Bombers game. We won't see a change until 2021 bar a few patches but once they get their heads right, their bodies will follow
That's all very well, but as has been demonstrated many times in sport over the years, confidence in yourself, your team mates and coach is not something you can just flick a switch and it will magically materialise. It is something built over time. If you implant that feeling that it's okay to lose, it may take a lot of work and time to remove that from our culture.

Surely you can still be at least competitive in losing. I think there must be a way of trialing some of the younger guys without becoming a complete train wreck which, I'm sorry to say, we have become.
 

Adelaide Hawk

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What about if it was a straight Burton for Wingard trade? No draft picks involved.
Depends what you are wanting to achieve. If you are looking at a plan where we can win the flag in the next 2-3 years, then maybe you'd look at Wingard, but we are not at that stage. It's going to be a long haul back, and Burton would have been ideal as an onfield leader (along the lines of a Hodge, etc) in the next 4-5 years. Burton would be my pick for the future.
 

Hawk Dork

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Depends what you are wanting to achieve. If you are looking at a plan where we can win the flag in the next 2-3 years, then maybe you'd look at Wingard, but we are not at that stage. It's going to be a long haul back, and Burton would have been ideal as an onfield leader (along the lines of a Hodge, etc) in the next 4-5 years. Burton would be my pick for the future.
Leaders have to go when its their turn
 

Mercy Seat

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Depends what you are wanting to achieve. If you are looking at a plan where we can win the flag in the next 2-3 years, then maybe you'd look at Wingard, but we are not at that stage. It's going to be a long haul back, and Burton would have been ideal as an onfield leader (along the lines of a Hodge, etc) in the next 4-5 years. Burton would be my pick for the future.
There was a lot of speculation here that Burton was hard work off the field and didn’t fit in at the club. If that was the case, it would go some way explaining what happened.
 

killerspud

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Well yes, my feelings are off the back of reviewing his body of work this season - whilst last night may not have been his worst performance, nor Ceglars, there are systemic issues that they are characteristic of.

You can't throw them in at once, but I just want to discover who is mediocre on our list and who may hope of being better than that, and continuing to select players whose ceiling has been reached and simply won't be Hawthorn premiership players is frustrating. I'll spew up if I read more justification of O'Brien's spot in the side at this stage of the season
See I think you can throw them all in at once - Fewer senior players means you either take up the fight or you get smashed so let's see who's got the fight. Who's going to take on the game like an teenage Rioli in the 08 Grand final
 

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