Opinion Round 16 Changes vs. Carlton

[malpaso]

I'd argue that Clarkson doesn't really play youth either. Might hand a debut here and there but that's it. I could be putting my foot in it but pretty sure he prefers the older players.

 

[FreoRicci]

You can discuss the reasons for it, and perhaps the reasons are fair enough. But when people say "Ross Lyon doesn't play youth", they are mostly correct. So it's getting pretty boring reading the same posters quoting the opposite, as if the fact that 2 guys who have been on our list since 2011 are getting a game every 2nd week or so in 2015 is proof that Ross plays youth.

Fremantle has less youth in their team than any other team in the AFL. We had 1 player in our team last week who was drafted after 2011. One. And that one was Alex Pearce, who was a forced changed given that our 3 first choice key defenders were all injured.

Look I think you made your point, loud and clear. But why not think about the other side of the coin in that the players we have drafted recently have either a) retired prematurely (Simpson and Pitt) or b) just plain not cut out for AFL. It's no secret that Freo are absolutely horrendous at drafting/trading for players and the last few years is key indicator of such. We've been unlucky with Apeness with his medial knee injury.
Players often debut and play whenever a key player is injured or has retired anyway. It's not just at Freo but at all other clubs. Case in point: Jeremy McGovern from West Coast- predominantly played as a forward and as cover/back up but due to injuries to key backs, is now considered as a key backman

 

[malpaso]

Look I think you made your point, loud and clear. But why not think about the other side of the coin in that the players we have drafted recently have either a) retired prematurely (Simpson and Pitt) or b) just plain not cut out for AFL.

Don't forget Morabito...
Fremantle have been actually lucky to pick up gems either late in the draft (Neale,Sutcliffe) or in the rookie draft (Barlow,Spurr). They have balanced out our bad luck with early draft picks.

 

[beetz]

I'd argue that Clarkson doesn't really play youth either. Might hand a debut here and there but that's it. I could be putting my foot in it but pretty sure he prefers the older players.

Spot on. Premierships are won with AFL hardened and experienced players.

 

[Scham]

Spot on. Premierships are won with AFL hardened and experienced players.

No ones saying that we bring in half a team of kids but plenty of premierships have been won with 1 or 2 inexperienced and non-AFL hardened players. And if your hardened, experienced players are regularly stinking it up then why not try an alternative, even if that alternative is a 19 or 20 yo.

 

[ydraw]

Look I think you made your point, loud and clear. But why not think about the other side of the coin in that the players we have drafted recently have either a) retired prematurely (Simpson and Pitt) or b) just plain not cut out for AFL. It's no secret that Freo are absolutely horrendous at drafting/trading for players and the last few years is key indicator of such. We've been unlucky with Apeness with his medial knee injury.

Certainly our drafting of late has been horrendous, but we finally have got a few guys who look the goods in the lower grades and they still aren't getting a crack. Guys like Ballard and Brady Grey have been around for a while now too and haven't got their chance either.

I tend to agree that maybe Ross is right that older players = success. I am not having a go at Ross Lyon here. I am having a go at the posters here who think that Ross actually does play youth. He does not, and opposition supporters are perfectly correct to point that out.

It's 2015. The "youth" that these guys keep using as examples are 22-23 year olds who we drafted 4 years ago.

 

[Banker]

I think drafting Pitt was a big mistake at the time. Why you wouldn't have gone for Darling was astounding. Sure he had party problems, but years later you draft Simpson which was a matter of time before he got the sack.

 

[Banker]

I'd argue that Clarkson doesn't really play youth either. Might hand a debut here and there but that's it. I could be putting my foot in it but pretty sure he prefers the older players.

When you have older players that are actually good, youth can wait. Problem is that Freo have many players that have inherent skill/ decision making problems. MDB and Suban issues are costly especially since bottom players have the most freedom and thus great opportunity to influence game against top opposition.

 

[Alfonz]

The problem is not so much not playing youth. The problem is playing Suban and De Boer. Other options should be tried instead of those guys, and in our case those options include Crozier, Weller, Blakeley, etc.

Using Hawthorn as an example is not all that relevant, because they don't have anyone as bad as Suban and De Boer in their 22.

 

[ydraw]

The worst player in Hawthorn's regular 22 is Matt Suckling, that's how good Hawthorn are.

 

[GilG]

Spot on. Premierships are won with AFL hardened and experienced players.

OK, but what about Kevin Sheedy's "Baby Bombers" from back in the day?

 

[poshman]

The worst player in Hawthorn's regular 22 is Matt Suckling, that's how good Hawthorn are.

And although he has had issues with contested play his foot skills are all over the majority of our list.

He has been sub while young players are getting a go. Would be very nice to see Weller as a surprise inclusion tomorrow but it's very doubtful.

 

[TheInjuryFactory]

I'm out of here.The lunatics have taken over the asylum.Doom gloom and more flopping doom.The club has never been in a stronger position.
The sooks , defeatists and trolls on here are sucking the life out of enjoying what is a great season.
Any one who has a positive attitude is howled down or given the sycophant tag.
I love the club,all the players and I love what Ross,Bond and the Steves are doing.I am enjoying being a Freo supporter.
I'll see the mates I made on here at the GF.

Hear, hear. Shame you've reached the end of your tether salim, but I can understand entirely where you're coming from. These selection threads in particular are the domain of the doomsayers.

Hope to see you back soon enough, always enjoy your training reports and insight.

 

[kingswood71]

Spurr was not youth.

No he wasnt...But by "youth" in the context of the discussion, I think it refers more to AFL players who make their AFL debut, not necessarily an age thing!

 

[Ripper]

Sorry to see you go Salim, always (mostly) enjoyed your posts and reports from training.
Any chance you might change your mind after "sleeping on the decision"?

I hope He does reconsider, salim malik adds heaps to this board.

 

[Rob]

Spot on. Premierships are won with AFL hardened and experienced players.

That doesn't mean you can't throw in a few kids into the team. If they're good enough.

Hawthorn's not really a good example of that - their youngest player in the 14 GF was Hill, their only player under 22. Sydney in 2012 had a few under 21 though.

 

[DudleyDocker]

If we weren't coming off a 72 point hiding as well as a dip in form then sure we would be debuting a few. But right now we need to figure out the forward structure as well as midfield. Freo haven't played as a team in a fair while and no time like now to do that tomorrow night.

You're right - that hasn't been working, so let's keep trying it.

 

[Scham]

I think drafting Pitt was a big mistake at the time. Why you wouldn't have gone for Darling was astounding. Sure he had party problems, but years later you draft Simpson which was a matter of time before he got the sack.

Good point, maybe one mistake lead to the other?

 

[DudleyDocker]

That doesn't mean you can't throw in a few kids into the team. If they're good enough.

Hawthorn's not really a good example of that - their youngest player in the 14 GF was Hill, their only player under 22. Sydney in 2012 had a few under 21 though.

The whole argument of age versus experience (hardness) is nonsensical. The grand final is won by the best team on the day, regardless of age and experience.

The 1993 GF was won by the "baby Bombers" which included:

Gavin Wanganeen - 20
James Hird - 20
Joe Misiti - 18
Mark Mercuri - 19
Michael Long - 23
Dustin Fletcher - 18

Don't be seduced into thinking everything that is said by the "gurus" is right. I saw Worsfold's 5 factors for winning a flag, including an average age of 25 years old - does that mean you could have 11 18 year olds and 11 32 year olds? Some of the tripe that is trotted out is just unbelievable.

I love Ross Lyon and think that getting him to the club was a watershed moment for us, but I don't think he is infallible. I think he is learning as he goes, and while I don't subscribe to the "doesn't play youth" theory, I think he is far too conservative in developing young players. In my eyes he has a low risk profile in everything he does, be it game plan, game day strategy or team selection. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but to date it has not won him a grand final and until it does he will always carry that monkey on his back. I think it is this failure that drives him to keep what he considers his "most likely" team in rather than run some risks on new players.

Time will tell if this is a good thing or not, but will we all still be backing him in in two years if we haven't won a flag? If he was to leave now I think we would be in a situation similar to Saint Kilda when he left - a good core of experienced players and very little else with AFL experience.

I desperately want us to succeed, and I would love to win the flag this year, but we are realistically only a 10% or at best 20% chance - let
s also start thinking about next year and the year after and get games into the guys we think will lead us into the future.

For me that doesn't include quite a number of the guys currently playing in the team.

 

[Banker]

Good point, maybe one mistake lead to the other?

I think this might have happened.

Though I think he only wanted to go freo/wce, would have been nice to risk a later draft pick.

 

[FreoRicci]

The whole argument of age versus experience (hardness) is nonsensical. The grand final is won by the best team on the day, regardless of age and experience.

The 1993 GF was won by the "baby Bombers" which included:

Gavin Wanganeen - 20
James Hird - 20
Joe Misiti - 18
Mark Mercuri - 19
Michael Long - 23
Dustin Fletcher - 18

Don't be seduced into thinking everything that is said by the "gurus" is right. I saw Worsfold's 5 factors for winning a flag, including an average age of 25 years old - does that mean you could have 11 18 year olds and 11 32 year olds? Some of the tripe that is trotted out is just unbelievable.

I love Ross Lyon and think that getting him to the club was a watershed moment for us, but I don't think he is infallible. I think he is learning as he goes, and while I don't subscribe to the "doesn't play youth" theory, I think he is far too conservative in developing young players. In my eyes he has a low risk profile in everything he does, be it game plan, game day strategy or team selection. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but to date it has not won him a grand final and until it does he will always carry that monkey on his back. I think it is this failure that drives him to keep what he considers his "most likely" team in rather than run some risks on new players.

Time will tell if this is a good thing or not, but will we all still be backing him in in two years if we haven't won a flag? If he was to leave now I think we would be in a situation similar to Saint Kilda when he left - a good core of experienced players and very little else with AFL experience.

I desperately want us to succeed, and I would love to win the flag this year, but we are realistically only a 10% or at best 20% chance - let
s also start thinking about next year and the year after and get games into the guys we think will lead us into the future.

For me that doesn't include quite a number of the guys currently playing in the team.

Sorry but this has to be contender for subtle meltdown of the year.. Really? Currently on top with 70% of the team out of form or not yet hitting the straps and we're a 10/20% chance. Let's just give up this year then, just come first for no reason and forfeit.

 

[DudleyDocker]

Sorry but this has to be contender for subtle meltdown of the year.. Really? Currently on top with 70% of the team out of form or not yet hitting the straps and we're a 10/20% chance. Let's just give up this year then, just come first for no reason and forfeit.

That's one of the most piss-weak posts I have read on here in a while mate.

Why do some on here feel the need to cry "meltdown" any time someone questions our season?

OK - let's break it down - there are 18 teams in the comp, of which, you can probably discount 12 as having any realistic chance, so that leave 6 with a realistic chance - including us. Let's say the reigning premiers, who just touched us up to the tune of 13 goals is a pretty reasonable chance, what would you give them? If you think 20% is low for us then they would have to be higher - let's say 30% - 40%.

Then we have Sydney, who I would think are travelling as well as us or better - is 20% too low for them? Eagles? Collingwood? Richmond? Bullies? Between them do you think there is a possible 30% chance? Maybe a complete Roughy like North Melbourne, Cats or Adelaide - any chance? 10%

So how is giving us a 10 - 20% chance of the flag a meltdown? If we have a 20% chance in an 18 team competition at this stage of the season we are a front runner.

You don't have to agree, but don't accuse me of melting down because I have an opinion that differs from your. If we could go into any season with a 20% chance of winning a flag I'd take it.

 

[clogged]

It's not about youth, it's about realising that certain players don't cut the mustard.

 

[Sweetback]

Good point, maybe one mistake lead to the other?

It's not a good point because they're observations made in retrospect based on things that only became evident after the fact.

 

[ydraw]

After last weeked's loss we are now third favourites for the premiership behind Hawthorn and Sydney. So those accusing others of "melting down" are taking the piss a bit. We are no longer favourites, we aren't even 2nd favourites.