Autopsy Round 17, 2020: St.Kilda v West Coast

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70s sainter

All Australian
Sep 15, 2011
824
1,559
AFL Club
St Kilda
Handling these one at a time -

Two of the Eagles' goals in the last qtr were a direct result of Geary blindly bombing the ball out of defence and straight to Nic Nat. The Captain is meant to be calm and composed and keep his head about him under pressure. Jaz has been a stalwart for us but he almost directly handed them the ascension half way through that last qtr.

People have been saying it for weeks, last night was a highlight reel for why he just is not skilled enough to play as a higher level. If he wasn't the captain he would be out.

Carlisle not playing was a mistake. I'm stunned that the media didn't question this in the post match presser.

It's not that any of their KPFs took us apart, it's that the natural games of Coffield, Wilkie and Long had to be stunted to allow them to match up on Darling, Allen and Waterman. At no point were any of them able to free wheel out of the backline to help us create overlap run and drive the ball forward through the middle.

This meant that our initial forward entries came almost exclusively from stoppage work. When we were fortunate enough to get the ball forward we did a very good job of locking it in but just could not put a score on the board. Which leads to...

Max King is not a park mark monster. Why do we persist with dumping the ball to the 'hot spot' only for Max to get smashed by 2-3 blokes? His best work is on the lead and into space. Put the ball to an area he can run into and no defender in the comp is going to stop him. But nah, he's tall and he can jump so just hoof it.

Our recent recruitment has been fine but we are still carrying alot of dead wood from the Richo era. I think Ratts has well and truly over achieved with the talent that we have but in order to get to the next level we need to trim the fat.

Carlisle - Will probably be traded out.
Savage - Depth I guess?
Ross - If he's not effective defensively then I'm not sure he's worth a spot over someone like Dunstan.
Dunstan - I would play him but is he in Ratts plans?
Lonie - Showing something as a high half forward but if another team wants him...
Geary - Done. Should walk away now.
Roberton - Mystery man. Probably retires.
Austin - Delist
Abbott - Delist
Webster - Is he fit? Probably looks for a trade.
Phillips - Get the feeling he could be good in 2-3 years with 50+ games but will we want to carry him in the 22 while he develops?
McKenzie - Delist
Clavarino - Rave reviews from some, poor feedback from others. Can a team pushing for finals debut a CHB?
Joyce - Delist
Langlands - Where is he at?
Marsh - Gone

We can't run 4 small forwards either.

Lonie, Butler, Kent and Hind is not a mix that can get the job done. It's why Im still so keen for us to get in the ear of Papley if he still wants to move back to Vic. He and Butler as the pockets, Lonie and Gresh up the field.

We are a work in progress. The frustration is in not being able to take the next step while we have 3-4 guys who, realistically, shouldn't be getting a game right now.
Obviously Papley would be a massive get and suit our game plan . Dunno about dunstan being a first 22 player though. Would probably show where we’re at more than anything.
So for me we need a gun mid ( even an aging one ) while bytel develops. A small forward and a Carlisle replacement.
 

gringo2011

Hall of Famer
Nov 12, 2011
31,940
76,062
Melbourne
AFL Club
St Kilda
Here's what stinks to me about last night's game.
Xavier O'Neill, Brayden Ainsworth, Josh Rotham, Jackson Nelson, Hamish Brayshaw
WTF even are these people, and who knew they were on a sporting list?
And so all we needed was for Dean Kent, Ben Long, Nick Hind, Jack Lonie, Ben Paton (just half-arsedly choosing our bottom 5 here, leaving out the C and VC)
to win comprehensively over that who's who of nobodies and we'd be a long way towards winning, regardless of how good their top 5 were.
Kent got two handpasses for the game! Long got one kick, Hind 4 kicks. WTF were they doing out there?
Everyone saying Bytel's not ready e.t.c I couldn't give a damn. He'd get more possessions than the 3 of those guys combined and he'd learn a few things along the way.
As for Carlisle, has the club come out and stated that he's out for family-related reasons? If not, why the hell not? He's not a friggin Russian election candidate, just tell us. If he wasn't picked for football reasons against that Eagles forward line, it's a big bloody black mark against the coach and his team.

Speaking of black marks. If you've got the team advantage overall, and you don't start all that well, what's the best strategy. Stick your best tagger (Steele) on their best player (Kelly), make it a hard tag and tell the other blokes in the middle to beat their opponents if they want to play next week. I know Steele was near Kelly a bit later in the game, but not near enough and not early enough, he ripped a new Rsehole in us last night.

One more thing about Jake, he's the only bloke other than Lonie who's got a bit of mongrel in him. We're timid as mice out there, and it sucks balls.

In: Jake, Bytel and anyone willing to flatten Toby Greene
Out: Any player who didn't look sufficiently disgusted in their own performance last night and doesn't burn the track up this week
The difference is that they are a well set side who can just keep drafting kids and playing them in their seconds to develop and then pull one in to replace another in their system.

We have had to step out of a few drafts to fill holes and replace players who weren't up to standard. We were and are running a deficit in draft picks due to past mistakes. They are a top 4 side we are in a pool of sides that sit off the pack and realistically our ladder position is probably 8th to 15 territory. We are improving and it's largely youth lead so actually pretty positive.

I can remember playing Adelaide in 2011 and absolutely smashing them. We bullied their kids and made them look idiotic. They grew up and never lost a match again against us until this year. They bullied us back in that time and loved hurting us. We are starting a climb but aren't there yet. They are more like that finals hardened old Saints side.
 

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gringo2011

Hall of Famer
Nov 12, 2011
31,940
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I just think the point is we aren’t going to get an extra 4 goals a game unless we got about 5 champions. If we had an extra 4 goals a game this year we would 200 points clear of the side with the most points this year. That is just about impossible. We actually only need a goal extra a game to be on top of the ladder. We need to remember 4 goals these days is about 7 ten years ago. And if we do make it this year I wouldn’t rule out winning a final as early as this year. I would rule out a top 4 spot until we get another goal a game.
Well I reckon King could average close to 3 a game by next year easily. He might have us play finals. We need constant improvement everywhere else too but we aren't massively far away. We ned a couple of more Jack Steele like lifts in quality from a few players. Gresham looks most likely to be able to do that and Membrey shouldn't have two years as bad as he was this year. He's gone from 2 goals per game to 1.1.
 

70s sainter

All Australian
Sep 15, 2011
824
1,559
AFL Club
St Kilda
Overall the season has still being positive given where we were. We have the building blocks for a decent side. We are 1-2 stars short.

We have to move on some of the senior blokes. Geary should retire, and we should look to trade Ross. The Hanners trade is the one that really stings. How we could give him 5 years on big money, it truly beggars belief. To call it reckless would be an understatement. No other club would have gone close to giving him anything more than 3 years.

It makes it seriously hard to challenge when one of your highest paid players still has 3 years left and they are unlikely to play more than a handful of games for the next 3 years. What concerns me greatly, is that despite the lack of star power we still don't have that much cap room. The Hill and Hanners trades will act as a real handbreak for years to come.

We have Finnis and Lethlean to thank for that. Finnis has been an unmitigated disaster. Blows my mind he has not come under more scrutiny. The Hanners trade completely reeks of self interest on Lethean's part, but it was still allowed to go through no problem. This is after giving Richo and Trout free reign to destroy the clubs chances of rebuilding for years.

Time for him to move on.
Can’t agree that our ceo has been a disaster. He’s been great actually getting moorabbin done , girls team , sponsors, lethlean , players behaving , record memberships.
Would you prefer nettlefold back to put the club back on its knees like he did when we actually had some success???
 

gringo2011

Hall of Famer
Nov 12, 2011
31,940
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Or maybe just the sign of a developing team - inconsistent.
Gap between our best and worst this season has been a lot closer though.

Yep, didn't get anywhere near as many games that we weren't competitive in. We used to beat the weaklings up and lose to quality. Now we knock off middlers and the odd good team and lose to losers. seriously though we have improved. I think last year actually set us up pretty well. We gave plenty of games to players who otherwise would have been behind regular GOPs. We actually developed a whole heap of good kids. Battle, Wilkie, Marshall, Clark, Coff, Paton etc all got more games than they would have otherwise.
 

bird_man

Brownlow Medallist
Jan 14, 2012
24,281
50,064
The River Murray
AFL Club
St Kilda
Can’t agree that our ceo has been a disaster. He’s been great actually getting moorabbin done , girls team , sponsors, lethlean , players behaving , record memberships.
Would you prefer nettlefold back to put the club back on its knees like he did when we actually had some success???
We'd be a basket case if we were still at Seaford
 

gringo2011

Hall of Famer
Nov 12, 2011
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I am not saying he is going to kick a bag. But no way an opposition is going to just let him roam. They have to put take him seriously and put a big guy on him. It takes all the focus off King and spreads opposition defence. Right now they just all sit on and around King.

How long did we think the "bomb it to King and pick up goals from crumbs out the back" was going to work. We were lucky to get 10 rounds out of it.

I'd rather play someone like Marsh and just use him like a battering ram. Having him crash side on into any player that tries to double team King. Give away frees but just have them look over their shoulders the whole time.
 

plugger66

Brownlow Medallist
Jan 10, 2011
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We'd be a basket case if we were still at Seaford
Finnis and leathlean have been fantastic. Leathlean is on sen about every second week. That is great for the club If finnis never does another thing he has achieved the one thing that will keep this club going. Being back in our community was vital for the future. I don’t think people realise how far Archie and pelchen set us back.
 

plugger66

Brownlow Medallist
Jan 10, 2011
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Mids have looked ordinary for about 8 years now. For some reason we’ve barely bothered picking up mids through this entire rebuild. Mids, mids, and more mids should have been the strategy.
You Won’t get an argument from me and many would say that’s impossible
 

Xxxx66

Senior List
Jul 14, 2017
208
551
AFL Club
St Kilda
Dont have time to read all the comments, but I feel we are in better shape than many think.
For me , we just lack composure at key moments.
I counted about 20 last night such as king, hill misses, ross /battle kicks membery/ king missed marks/ Ryder ball watching/ kennedy unmanned 30 out, coff deliberate etc etc.
A bit more composure in another 3 or 4 games and we would be on top. Two big changes I'd like to see: swap in 2 or 3 good mids for small forwards and set up to hit up king, membery etc on the lead rather than bomb. Also think if we had a normal vfl season, players like Bytel would be much further advanced.
If we can land 2 guns off season, get a few players back, we will be super competitive next year
 

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gringo2011

Hall of Famer
Nov 12, 2011
31,940
76,062
Melbourne
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St Kilda
Mids have looked ordinary for about 8 years now. For some reason we’ve barely bothered picking up mids through this entire rebuild. Mids, mids, and more mids should have been the strategy.

Yup, in the age of the midfield we loaded up on half back flankers. It was one of he strangest list management decisions ever.
 

Diehard Saint

Brownlow Medallist
Jan 17, 2016
10,030
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Yep, didn't get anywhere near as many games that we weren't competitive in. We used to beat the weaklings up and lose to quality. Now we knock off middlers and the odd good team and lose to losers. seriously though we have improved. I think last year actually set us up pretty well. We gave plenty of games to players who otherwise would have been behind regular GOPs. We actually developed a whole heap of good kids. Battle, Wilkie, Marshall, Clark, Coff, Paton etc all got more games than they would have otherwise.
If you think about it, top 5 teams-
Port W
Richmond W
Brisbane - very close L
Eagles - close L
Cats - thumping L

That is not a bad season.
 

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