Autopsy Round 17, 2020: St.Kilda v West Coast

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kernelT

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Aug 15, 2010
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I agree we should have won but there top 6 We’re so much better than our top 6. Ryder was clearly our best but was probably still behind his opponent. We couldn’t stop their best players. The only it looked like we could was early and then when the rain really came down. It didn’t rain long enough
If hill is only half the player of gaff then we are pissing into the wind.

That was Kelly’s best game for the year, surely we can do better on him when they are so thin in the midfield... Ross & Steele have stopped better players than him.
 

SaintsSeptember

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If hill is only half the player of gaff then we are pissing into the wind.

That was Kelly’s best game for the year, surely we can do better on him when they are so thin in the midfield... Ross & Steele have stopped better players than him.
Our midfield was pretty thin at the start of the year. In this game Ross and Steele were our ball winners.
If Phillip's issue is his ordinary disposal maybe he'd make a decent tagger. Steele has moved beyond it.
Surely a midfield tagger would be as important as that 4th small forward.
 

plugger66

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If hill is only half the player of gaff then we are pissing into the wind.

That was Kelly’s best game for the year, surely we can do better on him when they are so thin in the midfield... Ross & Steele have stopped better players than him.
can’t disagree with that. I’m trying though.
 

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kernelT

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If the eagles are such a powerhouse compared to us, it’s strange that we would have gone above them on the ladder if we’d kicked a bit straighter last night. I give them no chance of winning the flag this year.

Has anyone come up with a theory around that last free kick/goal? I honestly couldn’t work out what it was possibly for.
 

plugger66

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Our midfield was pretty thin at the start of the year. In this game Ross and Steele were our ball winners.
If Phillip's issue is his ordinary disposal maybe he'd make a decent tagger. Steele has moved beyond it.
Surely a midfield tagger would be as important as that 4th small forward.
A midfield tagger must still get the ball especially in an ordinary midfield. Not sure Phillips would be to rapt with midfield contact.
 

Fiftyfifty

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It shouldn’t be, but I’m a bit surprised how many of you are going off the deep end after that loss: it feels extreme, even for this board.

One thing that stuck with me from the pre-match build-up was how Adam Simpson was adamant that, while injuries would hurt their side, they were a “system-based” team that would get through it.

He proved to be spot-on. It’s what wins games in this league normally.
Add COVID and shorter quarters and limited training into the equation and it’s winning even more in 2020.

What frustrates me in reading these comments is that so many of the over-the-top ones are coming from the same people that (rightly in my opinion) were getting so frustrated with Richo and our lack of system and composure last year.

I ask these people, why are you surprised that, when under extreme pressure, a lot of our senior players revert to what they learned from a coach for a number of years, i.e bang the ball on the boot and bomb it long. It makes complete sense. It also makes sense that the Eagles, when they are under pressure, revert to their system that has been instilled in them for many years under Simpson.

In relation to the above, we simply CANNOT expect that Ratts and co. can turn around our system so quickly. It will take time. While COVID has helped us in some ways, training restrictions haven’t helped in others. It’s going to take another couple of pre-seasons until we really bed down our game plan and sort the wheat from the chaff with our list.

Whatever way you look at it, 2020 has been an impressive first step for Ratts and co. To think our defense has basically Dougal having played over 50 games and that’s it.... scope for the future is enormous.

But, for fu**s sake, a loss against a top team in the first year of a new regime is NOT the time for us all to think the sky is falling.

But the really promising thing is that, on top of our players gaining in game experience every year they play, they will be getting more time to learn our system with each pre-season, learn synergy with each other and plan B’s. It’s a matter of time and the journey back to the Grand Final will be part of the fun.

It’s an incredibly exciting time to be following our young club. This is only the beginning, and to butcher a quote from that old Deborah Conway song, many of you have already gone and lost your minds after a few close losses. Pull your heads in and realize that we are on the right path finally.
Every week you are the only one that makes sense. Thank God for you.
 

kernelT

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Our midfield was pretty thin at the start of the year. In this game Ross and Steele were our ball winners.
If Phillip's issue is his ordinary disposal maybe he'd make a decent tagger. Steele has moved beyond it.
Surely a midfield tagger would be as important as that 4th small forward.
Phillips is a squib. There, I said it.
 

austinnn

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I reckon the list of kids looked a bit more exciting in that era. There seemed to be a lot more positive momentum around that time. It seemed inevitable that we'd improve. This time I'm cautiously optimistic rather than expecting everything to go right. Maybe it's age making me more of a realist.
03 was off the back of 3 great draft positions for finishing in the bottom 2, plus some very handy trades:

2000 - Callahan, Capuano, Gehrig, Hamill, Lawrence, Riewoldt, Koschitzke, Gale, Powell, Voss, Oliver, Berry

2001 - Black, Knobel, Ball, X Clarke, Dal Santo, Maguire, Montagna, Houlihan, Dicketts, B Schwarze, Chris Jones

2002 - Brooks, Penny, Goddard, Ferguson, L Fisher, Stephen Powell, A Murray, Barham.

Plus Milney in 2nd rd of 1999 rookie draft and Lenny & Bakes in the 1998 draft.

Hardly surprising we expected to do well, bearing in mind that we still had Harvey, Burke, Thompson, Loewe, Peckett, Young and Jones.
 

Cooksen

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Hardly surprising we expected to do well, bearing in mind that we still had Harvey, Burke, Thompson, Loewe, Peckett, Young and Jones.
That is the difference between that side and this one.

Harvey, Gerhig, Hamill, Peckett, Jones, Burke and Loewe as teachers.

We just dont have that level of qulaity senior players atm, Hanners, Ryder and Geary can only do so much.
 

prophetic1

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Sides who lose close games usually improve quickly the next year. A lot of luck comes into less than a goal a game losses or wins. Luck usually evens itself out.
All the talk of this loss has been, in a sense, one of shame. Shame that we couldn't beat a team that had half its players out. I guess there is an element of truth in that.....however in regards to the absence of Gresh, Hanners and Jake i would contend that they certainly would have improved us goal to goal...maybe three goals.

So although its been good to be ruthlessly searching for improvement and by God we need it, i think it fair to say we performed really well, had our opportunities sufficient to be worthy of hope and some consolation. I mean we could have had three much lesser lights out, but we tend to disregard just how potent those three can be....all of them fairly experienced as well.

We still need to import those elite mids...just two more players. Everything hangs on those concerned in the off season to do their job again, this time in a different way. We dont need 5 just two of the best we can procure. So much upside this year though regardless of the outcome.
 

Mowman

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If the eagles are such a powerhouse compared to us, it’s strange that we would have gone above them on the ladder if we’d kicked a bit straighter last night. I give them no chance of winning the flag this year.

Has anyone come up with a theory around that last free kick/goal? I honestly couldn’t work out what it was possibly for.
Yes, they are cheating dogs
 

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StFly

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If the eagles are such a powerhouse compared to us, it’s strange that we would have gone above them on the ladder if we’d kicked a bit straighter last night. I give them no chance of winning the flag this year.

Has anyone come up with a theory around that last free kick/goal? I honestly couldn’t work out what it was possibly for.
The very last free kick was;

  1. Shove player A in the back "oi you two"
  2. Gut punch player B in retribution "OK, free against"
Classic case of umpire right there, why are you being stupid and immediately retaliating with a clenched fist?

Sure, shouldn't have been shoved in the back with an elbow when walking away, but grow up yeah? Game was dead, what, you wanna worsen it by giving a shot on goal after the game ends?
 

Parkysp

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Good summary. I don't think King is the player we thought he might be- IMO at the moment looking more like Tom Hickey playing as a permanent forward. I thought Paddy showed more potential in comparison, but sadly we know injury cut him down. Hopefully a couple of seasons will see his body mature and become a better player.
I actually think it is where not going all out at Bing and risking the wrath of the AFL in last trade period will turn out to be a sliding doors moment. Max to me is looking more likely to be playing his best as a Ruck/Fwd that gets up the ground using his athleticism. Ben looks more the stay at home forward watching the Suns this year. Max kicking to Ben would very exciting.
 

stfan

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We still need to import those elite mids...just two more players. Everything hangs on those concerned in the off season to do their job again, this time in a different way. We dont need 5 just two of the best we can procure. So much upside this year though regardless of the outcome.
The problem is that really good mids is what every clubs want and the competition is fierce and moreso for really good inside mids which is what we so desperately need.

As it was, to gain Hill we had to pay overs in a big way. We don't have that type of overs this draft period.
 

Diehard Saint

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I actually think it is where not going all out at Bing and risking the wrath of the AFL in last trade period will turn out to be a sliding doors moment. Max to me is looking more likely to be playing his best as a Ruck/Fwd that gets up the ground using his athleticism. Ben looks more the stay at home forward watching the Suns this year. Max kicking to Ben would very exciting.
We had no chance to get Ben after the AFL made him an ambassadorial offer to keep him at their love child.
It’ll be a good few years before / if we ever manage to get him to the Saints.
We also did not have the currency to get him. Would have cost us an arm and a leg.
 

The Jack

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Aug 24, 2013
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Any brain surgeon media reporters spoken to anyone at the club about what’s going on with Jake today?
Haven’t heard anything personally.

Anyone know what the last free goal was for? Serious question. I have no idea.
 

gringo2011

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Not sure about HBFs but we definitely took way too many talls and small forwards. Here's the last 9 years of drafting/trading, grouped by the position they were when we picked them up.


Key Defenders (13)

2011: Lever, Wilkes/Maister
2013: Bruce, Delaney
2014: Goddard
2015: Carlisle, Coughlan (rookie)
2016: Brown, Joyce (rookie)
2017: Austin, Clavarino
2018: Wilkie (rookie)
2019: Howard

Small/Mid Defenders (10)

2012: Murdoch, Roberton, Wright
2013: Weller (rookie)
2014: McKenzie
2015: Rice, White
2016: Long
2017: Coffield, Paton

Rucks (8)

2012: Hickey, Pierce
2013: Longer, Holmes (rookie)
2018: Rowe
2019: Abbott, Ryder, Bell (rookie)

Mids (24)

2011: Markworth, Newnes, Ross, Webster, Dunell (rookie)
2012: Saunders
2013: Acres, Billings, Dunstan, Savage
2014: Sinclair (rookie)
2015: Freeman, Gresham, O'Kearney (rookie)
2016: Phillips, Steele, Stevens
2017: Clark
2018: Bytel, Hannebery
2019: Byrnes, Connolly, Hill, Jones

Key Forwards (11)

2011: Staley (rookie)
2012: Lee, White
2014: McCartin, Membrey, Payne (rookie)
2016: Battle, Marshall (rookie)
2018: King, Marsh, Mayo

Small/Mid Forwards (15)

2011: Milera, Saad, Minchington (rookie), Shenton (rookie)
2012: Dennis-Lane
2013: Templeton (rookie)
2014: Lonie, Saad (rookie)
2017: Connellan (rookie), Langlands (rookie)
2018: Hind, Kent, Parker, Young
2019: Butler

Markworth was a forward when we took him, Dunnell a utility, pretty sure Webster was always a back, Newnes was playing as a wingman at Calder, Billings was a forward who may develop into a mid etc. If you define everyone that isn't a mid as a mid it looks much more balanced. To me a mid is a true mid not a wingman or a half back/ mid half forward/mid etc. Ross, Saunders, Dunstan, Gresham, Clark and Bytel all drafted in as true mids. Steele, Freeman, Stevens and Hanners traded in.

9 true mids in 9 years, some sides have 9 on their list, 4 or 5 of them A grade or elite.
 

gringo2011

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If hill is only half the player of gaff then we are pissing into the wind.

That was Kelly’s best game for the year, surely we can do better on him when they are so thin in the midfield... Ross & Steele have stopped better players than him.

We don't have any elite players and only really Steele who is close to A grade. Until we get a couple jump up it's going to be hard going. Hill is a C to D grader on this years form, last few games probably B minus. I think Paddy and Marshall were great but a step down from Nic Nat. Gaff is close to elite, Kelly is close to elite, Ryan's season is close to elite, Nat Nat elite, Kennedy elite, Mc Govern close to elite and a few more that are close to A grade. We have a blanket of good average battlers or kids playing out of their skins.
 

AirWinmar

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Valid points, didn't expect it to be that way. Wasn't confident of winning either, but thought guys like Ross, Billings and Membrey would be throwing the kitchen sink at them to try and win. They just stood there like planks. It doesn't matter if you've played 85 games or 125. If you're a leader within a club you've got to shine a light. These guys just switched off, and that's the kick in the balls...that these guys just can't get it done when they are needed.

Edit: I didn't mention Geary with the above names, because of two points: A) he's put himself on the line to the extent that he is now...B) Cooked.
Members and Billings are terribly out of form.. Billings has had a pretty good season but last few games he has been fumbly. Members has been poor all year - its like the footy turns into a bar of soap everytime it goes to him
 

Parkysp

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Markworth was a forward when we took him, Dunnell a utility, pretty sure Webster was always a back, Newnes was playing as a wingman at Calder, Billings was a forward who may develop into a mid etc. If you define everyone that isn't a mid as a mid it looks much more balanced. To me a mid is a true mid not a wingman or a half back/ mid half forward/mid etc. Ross, Saunders, Dunstan, Gresham, Clark and Bytel all drafted in as true mids. Steele, Freeman, Stevens and Hanners traded in.

9 true mids in 9 years, some sides have 9 on their list, 4 or 5 of them A grade or elite.
Bit like our switching of the play over the past month. They took the soft option way too often in selection of players. Plenty of HBF and HFF players for years that "could" transition to on ball midfielders. Ah well they didn't work out but look we've got great "depth" now. That's the way it seems anyway on the evidence of many years recruiting.
 

AirWinmar

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I half agree with this.

Our accuracy is definitely an issue but I think it's 100% a symptom of bad midfield ball use. It wasn't just that our smalls were playing so well at the start of the year, it was that our kicking going inside 50 was finally damaging.

Here's a shot chart showing how different it's been:

View attachment 958407

Tonight was absolutely abysmal - constant high up and under kicks being heaved forward - and against the absolute worst team in the league to do it against.

Incredibly frustrating.
Its coz we are basically playing like rugby without offside. Roost it as long as you can. 47 marks yesterday compared with West coasts 69.
 

gringo2011

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The problem is that really good mids is what every clubs want and the competition is fierce and moreso for really good inside mids which is what we so desperately need.

As it was, to gain Hill we had to pay overs in a big way. We don't have that type of overs this draft period.

You have to draft them usually, not many change hands and most come in the first round.

Caleb Poulter is the Bont like bolter. 34 possessions and a goal then backed up with 29 and 2 goals. Mc Crae looks like a his brother, Will Phillips looks like a man already etc. We should get a good one this year.
 

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