Review Round 17, 2020 - Sydney vs. Brisbane Lions

Who were your five best players against Sydney?


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Harris Specter

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There is a bit of an "Urban Group Think Myth" forming about how our forward line functioned without McStay which needs to be debunked.

McStay missed rounds Rounds 9 and 10, this is the period where our forward line apparently, according to the group think, didn't function. Well in Round 9 we kicked 14.7.91 and beat Essendon by 63 Points, which suggests to me that our forward line functioned admirably. What was "not pretty" about that scoreline? It was in fact our second highest score this season.



The next week sans Dan we had our infamous 4.17.41 game against Richmond, which we lost by 41 points. As Fagan and others pointed out, we still managed 21 scoring shots and while we may never have won, it was poor kicking that cost us that week, not the absence of Dan McStay.

DERRINALPHIL has focused on two games in particular where Dan McStay was playing and it is interesting to look at how our forward line went with him in the team and not playing well. DERRINALPHIL has also focused on McStay’s poor marking, a concern that Brownie echoed early in his call of the game on Sunday. Anyway, in Round 13 we kicked 6.14.50 and then after our bye we kicked 6.6.42, a mere point above our Richmond losing score. In both instances the presence of an out of touch McStay hasn't been of any real benefit. We won those games, but we won very ugly.

Now on the upside - Dan McStay had a very good game last round, albeit against a team that is currently 15th on the ladder. In fact, it was clearly his best for the year. The challenge he faces, and where he has struggled, is in maintaining his form and particularly reproducing it against top sides. Let's be real, Dan McStay isn't going to be dropped, so I sincerely hope, as do all Lions supporters, that he can play as well as he did against Sydney next round against Carlton and more importantly, against top flight opposition like Geelong, Richmond and Port Adelaide. We are clearly a better side when Dan is playing well.
Ah the good old using selective stats to suit your argument.

Here are the ones that McStay also played in.
Round 2: 12.9 beating Fremantle (21 shots to 19)
Round 3: 10.14 beating Eagles (24 shots to 14)
Round 4: 10.23 beating Crows (33 shots to 11)
Round 5: 12.13 beating Port (25 shots to 18)
Round 6: 6.10 losing to Geelong (16 shots to 18)
Round 7: 13.10 beating Giants (23 shots to 18)
Round 8: 7.11 beating Melbourne (18 shots to 14)

Rounds 9 & 10: Beting a hapless Essendon who are probably the worst side in the competition. and against Richmond where we were outmarked time and time again by Richmond's defenders, simply because our forwards couldn't provide a contest, but sure blame inaccuracy purely on that one.
 

martinson

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People just need to accept that Dan is a better than average player playing a role in a KP and playing about as good as his ability. He's been below average in a few games this year. I think if we had someone to play his role or the true KPF role better it could free him up to play up the field to which he's more suited.

I think we actually played well when he wasn't there ,the guys we brought in didn't look as effective as him but they weren't given much chance , albeit I think he's our best bet there presently.
 

QLioness

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I'm not writing Skinner off at all, was more stating that if you get brought into the side and want to hold your spot, you have to perform well. More leeway is given to the regular 22 players that have performed over the preseason.
Yep, I’m hearing you. Rayner should’ve been dropped MANY times during the 2019 season. Don’t start me on Hipwood (although his 2020 season has been decent)
 

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martinson

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Ah the good old using selective stats to suit your argument.

Here are the ones that McStay also played in.
Round 2: 12.9 beating Fremantle (21 shots to 19)
Round 3: 10.14 beating Eagles (24 shots to 14)
Round 4: 10.23 beating Crows (33 shots to 11)
Round 5: 12.13 beating Port (25 shots to 18)
Round 6: 6.10 losing to Geelong (16 shots to 18)
Round 7: 13.10 beating Giants (23 shots to 18)
Round 8: 7.11 beating Melbourne (18 shots to 14)

Rounds 9 & 10: Beting a hapless Essendon who are probably the worst side in the competition. and against Richmond where we were outmarked time and time again by Richmond's defenders, simply because our forwards couldn't provide a contest, but sure blame inaccuracy purely on that one.
But we were playing Richmond . We kicked ourselves out of it and went about the same as the two previous times we played them when he was in.

I don't think he makes much difference one way or another unless he plays well like he did on Sunday.
 

Tom14

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But we were playing Richmond . We kicked ourselves out of it and went about the same as the two previous times we played them when he was in.

I don't think he makes much difference one way or another unless he plays well like he did on Sunday.
In addition to kicking ourselves out of it Vlaustin and Grimes took a million intercept marks because Skinner and Ballenden couldn't compete at all in the air with them. McStay may well be outmarked by both but he's a miles better chance to halve the contest and bring it to ground and lock it in, which we will need. Vlaustin in particular has just murdered us and then we get burnt on fast transition and they score easy goals.

He really doesn't need to have 6+ marks to perform well - its ensuring that the other team isn't intercepting as much.
 

martinson

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In addition to kicking ourselves out of it Vlaustin and Grimes took a million intercept marks because Skinner and Ballenden couldn't compete at all in the air with them. McStay may well be outmarked by both but he's a miles better chance to halve the contest and bring it to ground and lock it in, which we will need. Vlaustin in particular has just murdered us and then we get burnt on fast transition and they score easy goals.

He really doesn't need to have 6+ marks to perform well - its ensuring that the other team isn't intercepting as much.
Yeah sure. But he wasn't that effective in stopping anything the two previous times we played them

Plus there were lots of other factors in this years game. We were off a 4 day break . We had some inexperienced guys in there . We kicked like under 12 b graders.

There's a lot of discussion about Dan. I think his effect or otherwise is overrated in the scheme of things but he's playing a reasonably hard role and sometimes plays well.
 

3KZ is Football

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In addition to kicking ourselves out of it Vlaustin and Grimes took a million intercept marks because Skinner and Ballenden couldn't compete at all in the air with them. McStay may well be outmarked by both but he's a miles better chance to halve the contest and bring it to ground and lock it in, which we will need. Vlaustin in particular has just murdered us and then we get burnt on fast transition and they score easy goals.

He really doesn't need to have 6+ marks to perform well - its ensuring that the other team isn't intercepting as much.
Jonathan Brown disagreed about the marking. His comment was something like, “he gets his hands to the ball plenty of times but he needs to hold his marks.” I agree.
 

Quigley

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I am in another group and I remember a conversation from a few years ago with a Richmond supporter who talked up Conca. Not many of us could understand the love and challenged him about what Conca actually did well. To much mirth the best that he could come up with is that he was an elite blocker.

That is about the same as with McStay. He is an elite pack crasher. Virtually every other aspect of his game is below average. A pack crasher happens ot be something we need so he gets games but many of us look at all those half chances he has and think how much better he would be if he was just a bit better player.
 

3KZ is Football

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Ah the good old using selective stats to suit your argument.

Here are the ones that McStay also played in.
Round 2: 12.9 beating Fremantle (21 shots to 19)
Round 3: 10.14 beating Eagles (24 shots to 14)
Round 4: 10.23 beating Crows (33 shots to 11)
Round 5: 12.13 beating Port (25 shots to 18)
Round 6: 6.10 losing to Geelong (16 shots to 18)
Round 7: 13.10 beating Giants (23 shots to 18)
Round 8: 7.11 beating Melbourne (18 shots to 14)

Rounds 9 & 10: Beting a hapless Essendon who are probably the worst side in the competition. and against Richmond where we were outmarked time and time again by Richmond's defenders, simply because our forwards couldn't provide a contest, but sure blame inaccuracy purely on that one.
First a correction. Far from being the worst team in the competition, coming into Round 9 Essendon were 7th on the Ladder, one win off equal top and with a game in hand. Against that team we kicked our second highest score for the year and a higher score than any you mentioned, all without Dan in the side. In the games you mentioned we kicked a total of 70 goals, of which Dan McStay only kicked 4. Over the same period he averaged 9.5 disposals, 3.28 Marks, 1.57 tackles and a grand total of 2 goal assists at an average of 0.28 per game. I hardly think any of the wins you mentioned could be attributed to him.
Still hope springs eternal and I say again, I really liked his game against Sydney. I hope he can continue or even better that form into the finals against top flight opposition. Dan McStay strikes me as a really decent person and a strong club man. If he was playing in defence I would be one of his biggest supporters and that is where I think he will end up once Birchall retires. I can’t wait, because it will be the making of McStay.
Let’s just not pretend our forward line was lost without him while he was suspended.
 
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dlanod

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That is about the same as with McStay. He is an elite pack crasher. Virtually every other aspect of his game is below average. A pack crasher happens ot be something we need so he gets games but many of us look at all those half chances he has and think how much better he would be if he was just a bit better player.
Pretty accurate. Part of it is also understanding that being elite in an area we need is more than our reserves currently provide.
 

DERRINALPHIL

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In addition to kicking ourselves out of it Vlaustin and Grimes took a million intercept marks because Skinner and Ballenden couldn't compete at all in the air with them. McStay may well be outmarked by both but he's a miles better chance to halve the contest and bring it to ground and lock it in, which we will need. Vlaustin in particular has just murdered us and then we get burnt on fast transition and they score easy goals.

He really doesn't need to have 6+ marks to perform well - its ensuring that the other team isn't intercepting as much.
This McStay competes and brings it to the ground thing is a myth, a meme. I specifically look for it each week and I don't see it. Please look back on your Kayo and provide me with examples. When we kick to a crowd in front of the goal square no one, except the Big O, marks it. That aint McStay any more than its McCarthey.

To late for any change before the finals. We crossed that Rubicon when we did not give the alternatives more games.

But a more interesting point is how good can the Big O get as say a David Hale type ruck forward. I saw Hale kick a huge bag one day (9?). Oscar has come on so much as a ruckman. He reminds me of Rod Marsh and Ian Healey, who both dropped three catches in their first innings keeping, but worked at their games and became legends. Hopefully Stef gets back and plays on next year as I am hopeful that Oscar will show us similar improvement up forward.

It we can spare Oscar at full forward during the finals it may be a winning move and he will become a legend
 

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martinson

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This McStay competes and brings it to the ground thing is a myth, a meme. I specifically look for it each week and I don't see it. Please look back on your Kayo and provide me with examples. When we kick to a crowd in front of the goal square no one, except the Big O, marks it. That aint McStay any more than its McCarthey.

To late for any change before the finals. We crossed that Rubicon when we did not give the alternatives more games.

But a more interesting point is how good can the Big O get as say a David Hale type ruck forward. I saw Hale kick a huge bag one day (9?). Oscar has come on so much as a ruckman. He reminds me of Rod Marsh and Ian Healey, who both dropped three catches in their first innings keeping, but worked at their games and became legends. Hopefully Stef gets back and plays on next year as I am hopeful that Oscar will show us similar improvement up forward.

It we can spare Oscar at full forward during the finals it may be a winning move and he will become a legend
Fwiiw I can hardly remember McStay doing this bringing it to the ground thing all that often , that's just an unrecorded observation. I think Hipwood does it far more often imo.
 

jackess

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Why doesn't McCarthy come under the same scrutiny as McStay? I think their output is similar in their respective roles

Just because some of our older, more stubborn posters think every key forward need to be the second coming of Bernie Quinlan he gets a lot more negative attention
 

TheZork

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Why doesn't McCarthy come under the same scrutiny as McStay? I think their output is similar in their respective roles

Just because some of our older, more stubborn posters think every key forward need to be the second coming of Bernie Quinlan he gets a lot more negative attention
This couldn't be any more spot on, he gets extra heat because of his position. You could quite easily mount the exact same argument for McCarthy and Rayner. I feel like a lot of people genuinely haven't grasped the fact that in modern day footy, key forwards are not the be and end all goal wise.

In fact, I'd go as far as saying McStay does more than both of those. His goal output is almost the same, but also plays a more important and difficult role on top of that.
 
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Tom14

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This McStay competes and brings it to the ground thing is a myth, a meme. I specifically look for it each week and I don't see it. Please look back on your Kayo and provide me with examples. When we kick to a crowd in front of the goal square no one, except the Big O, marks it. That aint McStay any more than its McCarthey.

To late for any change before the finals. We crossed that Rubicon when we did not give the alternatives more games.

But a more interesting point is how good can the Big O get as say a David Hale type ruck forward. I saw Hale kick a huge bag one day (9?). Oscar has come on so much as a ruckman. He reminds me of Rod Marsh and Ian Healey, who both dropped three catches in their first innings keeping, but worked at their games and became legends. Hopefully Stef gets back and plays on next year as I am hopeful that Oscar will show us similar improvement up forward.

It we can spare Oscar at full forward during the finals it may be a winning move and he will become a legend
Check out the 16 second mark:


Leaves his man, jumps over the spare (mills) to make a contest, doesn't complete a tough mark which is understandable given the conditions, ball spills to front and charlie goals.

This took approximately 1 minute to find on youtube, didn't even need to get a Kayo subscription. Other obvious examples off the top of my head would be the excellent job he did v McGovern in round 1 last year.

Anyway, I'm bored of the endless McStay wars - he's in the team because he is better than the alternatives. But if you are going to criticise or claim that he doesn't compete and you 'specifically look for it each week' then maybe you need to make sure you are watching the same game ;)
 

3KZ is Football

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This couldn't be any more spot on, he gets extra heat because of his position. You could quite easily mount the exact same arguments for McCarthy and Rayner. I feel like a lot of people (maybe the older posters as you said), haven't genuinely grasped the fact that in modern day footy, key forwards are not the be and end all.
Ageism. Nice. Older people are incapable of understanding the reality of the “modern game.” If that’s the best you or anyone else have got, you have nothing. Weak.
 

TheZork

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Ageism. Nice. Older people are incapable of understanding the reality of the “modern game.” If that’s the best you of anyone else has got, you have nothing. Weak.
Firstly, I don't know why you're having a go at me, I wasn't even the one to bring it up, I just mentioned it again with a 'maybe?'. Because knowing plenty of AFL and VFL players, I can tell you for a fact that it's something that has completely gone out of the game. It is an issue and a misconception, which coaches are very much against now. They want an even spread, for pretty obvious reasons too.

Also as I said, McStay has basically the same goal output as McCarthy and Rayner, and plays a harder role, yet where's the heat on them?
 

jackess

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Firstly I don't know why you're having a go at me, I wasn't even the one to bring it up, I just mentioned it again with a 'maybe?'. Because knowing plenty of AFL and VFL players, I can tell you for a fact it's something that has completely gone out of the game. It is an issue and a misconception which coaches are very much against now. They prefer an even spread.

Also as I said, McStay has basically the same goal output as McCarthy and Rayner, and plays a harder role, yet where's the heat on them?
In defence of 3KZ he wasn't too keen on Rayner last year. Used his low fantasy point scores several times as a reason to drop him
 

TheZork

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I think it is pretty clear people expect more goals from key forwards. Very understandable too, because it's been that way since the inception of the sport. Small and medium forwards have only recently become a thing in a way. Fagan bangs on about it all the time, "even spread," it's what he wants and what all of the coaches want. If McStay and Hipwood dominated, but no one else did anything, and one day they were both shutdown, it's obviously a disaster. So, if we're going to drag McStay down for goals, may as well also drag down half the forward line.
 

DERRINALPHIL

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Check out the 16 second mark:


Leaves his man, jumps over the spare (mills) to make a contest, doesn't complete a tough mark which is understandable given the conditions, ball spills to front and charlie goals.

This took approximately 1 minute to find on youtube, didn't even need to get a Kayo subscription. Other obvious examples off the top of my head would be the excellent job he did v McGovern in round 1 last year.

Anyway, I'm bored of the endless McStay wars - he's in the team because he is better than the alternatives. But if you are going to criticise or claim that he doesn't compete and you 'specifically look for it each week' then maybe you need to make sure you are watching the same game ;)
He nearly got that mark and did you notice he was focused on watching the ball. As it came down all here was willing him to get the final grab
 

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