Review Round 17, 2022 - Brisbane Lions vs. Essendon

[M Malice]

When Zorko was playing in the backline we were killing it.

Unfortunately we decided we needed him M/F . I think at this stage of his career that's past him body wise.

He was good down back but I prefer him in the midfield if fit and firing, we miss his speed in attack and his defensive pressure even more.

If his body is not up to it then fair enough go back and have some shorter stints further up field.

 

[lioninthesand]

There is some constructive criticism/ care for the club. There is also a lot of moronic unrealistic, so called supporters having a group pile on. Some you rarely see unless we struggling, or have had a bad loss it is pathetic. I really wonder why some even suggest they support the club as all they ever contribute is negative s**t. Do wonder why we went with Fagan with all the clearly much more astute coaching minds on this board, let alone the ones who could predict the future and only drafted future guns given the opportunity to take Canole’s job. We lost to Melbourne- hate to break it too some of you but they are f$n good. We then smashed the Bulldogs and then lost by 10 points with half our team out. Maybe a disappointing loss but there was a legitimate reason. Some of the crap on here is pure rubbish.

I am at a loss here, is a few supporters demanding a bit more, a group pile on?

It’s been an awesome conversation, you don’t have to agree.

If I saw pointless hate, bagging of personalities and repetitive negative crap I’d point it out, but I haven’t seen anything like that.

What’s the point of engaging in a forum if it’s just a positive echo chamber?

You don’t think the same conversations are being had within the club?

The only thing that has bought the conversation down today - is 4-5 posters coming in and making wide sweeping claims about unidentified ‘rubbish posts’ and putting people down (not sure who) for having an opinion.

They have added absolutely nothing to an otherwise worthwhile sharing of ideas.

 

[LIONS08]

There is some constructive criticism/ care for the club. There is also a lot of moronic unrealistic, so called supporters having a group pile on. Some you rarely see unless we struggling, or have had a bad loss it is pathetic. I really wonder why some even suggest they support the club as all they ever contribute is negative s**t. Do wonder why we went with Fagan with all the clearly much more astute coaching minds on this board, let alone the ones who could predict the future and only drafted future guns given the opportunity to take Canole’s job. We lost to Melbourne- hate to break it too some of you but they are f$n good. We then smashed the Bulldogs and then lost by 10 points with half our team out. Maybe a disappointing loss but there was a legitimate reason. Some of the crap on here is pure rubbish.

Yeah I completely agree… I don’t think it’s this forum but it’s just society as a whole these days I feel. People are so incredibly quick to cast judgement and rarely…. rarely is it ever positive. Our turnaround has been remarkable and it’s been done with sustained success in mind… we may miss out on the ultimate success with the older fellas but we are grooming blokes to take the rolls.
Judge the season as a whole at the end of the year… once we have all the required information… it’s way too easy to take pot shots with 6 rounds left plus finals

 

[jonnobackpocket]

I am at a loss here, is a few supporters demanding a bit more, a group pile on?

It’s been an awesome conversation, you don’t have to agree.

If I saw pointless hate, bagging of personalities and repetitive negative crap I’d point it out, but I haven’t seen anything like that.

What’s the point of engaging in a forum if it’s just a positive echo chamber?

You don’t think the same conversations are being had within the club?

The only thing that has bought the conversation down today - is 4-5 posters coming in and making wide sweeping claims about unidentified ‘rubbish posts’ and putting people down (not sure who) for having an opinion.

They have added absolutely nothing to an otherwise worthwhile sharing of ideas.

No I don’t have to agree and I don’t, you see it as an awesome conversation do you. 85% negative crap about all the things the club and coach are doing wrong. We are still top 4 and if wasn’t for Covid we would be a much better chance of finishing there. If you haven’t seen negative repetitive crap like you claim then you must have skimmed over most posts. You say ‘I would call it out’, so you would apparently do exactly what I am- but you have a problem with me doing it. You call it ‘a few supporters demanding more’, really is that what it is? So you trying to call people out for ‘putting people down’ (in your opinion) for having an opinion and then follow that with those people ‘have added absolutely nothing’. You didn’t like the posts so it’s added ‘absolutely nothing’- be a bit more hypocritical.


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[McIvor]

No I don’t have to agree and I don’t, you see it as an awesome conversation do you. 85% negative crap about all the things the club and coach are doing wrong. We are still top 4 and if wasn’t for Covid we would be a much better chance of finishing there. If you haven’t seen negative repetitive crap like you claim then you must have skimmed over most posts. You say ‘I would call it out’, so you would apparently do exactly what I am- but you have a problem with me doing it. You call it ‘a few supporters demanding more’, really is that what it is? So you trying to call people out for ‘putting people down’ (in your opinion) for having an opinion and then follow that with those people ‘have added absolutely nothing’. You didn’t like the posts so it’s added ‘absolutely nothing’- be a bit more hypocritical.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

I personally think lioninthesand's post was carefully thought and worthy of a discussion - at no stage was any single poster targeted - however, those that have not shared his or hers view - which is perfectly fine to not share the same view - have more targeted posters that have agreed as opposed to actually rebuking those posts or lioninthesands post. Sure don't agree, but talk about the opposite argument instead of bagging posters as if it is a pile on which i agree, adds nothing and as briztoon has said, play the ball or the argument with a counterpoint as opposed to playing the poster as if it is a pile on. As someone else said, martinson I think, this is a forum worthy of discussion whether you agree or not, but not a echo chamber of everyone just agreeing with everything to afraid to discuss those things that are uncomfortable. I hope the club is at least doing that - the hard conversations that is otherwise we are in big trouble.

 

[briztoon]

Yeah I completely agree… I don’t think it’s this forum but it’s just society as a whole these days I feel. People are so incredibly quick to cast judgement and rarely…. rarely is it ever positive. Our turnaround has been remarkable and it’s been done with sustained success in mind… we may miss out on the ultimate success with the older fellas but we are grooming blokes to take the rolls.
Judge the season as a whole at the end of the year… once we have all the required information… it’s way too easy to take pot shots with 6 rounds left plus finals

Pretty sure there was a lot of positivity around here in 2019 and 2020.

We’ve moved beyond the fresh excitement of being good, and potentially contending, and some members here are starting to see that maybe this is the last year for this group of senior players, and that maybe McCluggage and Rayner aren’t enough to support Neale post Zorko and Rich.


I have some more judgements for you that aren’t positive, on the highlighted section.

I mentioned recently, in a conversation elsewhere, that I have concerns about the development of our youngsters in the reserves.

From my untrained eye, we aren’t developing the skills of our young players in the reserves. They are playing the same kick down the line, contested style that our seniors do. Which is fair enough, you want players to be able to step up to first team and know their role.

But it’s not a game style that develops players skills, encourage players to improve their kicking.

This really hit home while watching the reserves play Frankston on a Friday night a couple of months ago.

If you watched the game, you would struggle to work out which team was the reserve team for an AFL side, and which team was a stand alone team full of part timers.

We were bigger and faster, but we played ugly football down the line, and used our bigger bodies to win the contest and territory battle.

The Frankston players, while smaller, kept running the ball all night out of their defence, using overlap handballs and precise kicking to hit their players on the wing and forward flank.

What stopped Frankston winning the game wasn’t their entries in to the forward 50, which were largely on point, it was our defenders being bigger, and our younger midfielders being able to flood back, creating a numerical advantage.

Something that we don’t get at AFL level, because players are the same size or bigger at AFL level, and because the good teams move the ball much faster on the turn over, or from the kick in. Which we saw against Essendon (who aren’t a good team).

 

[briztoon]

No I don’t have to agree and I don’t, you see it as an awesome conversation do you. 85% negative crap about all the things the club and coach are doing wrong. We are still top 4 and if wasn’t for Covid we would be a much better chance of finishing there. If you haven’t seen negative repetitive crap like you claim then you must have skimmed over most posts. You say ‘I would call it out’, so you would apparently do exactly what I am- but you have a problem with me doing it. You call it ‘a few supporters demanding more’, really is that what it is? So you trying to call people out for ‘putting people down’ (in your opinion) for having an opinion and then follow that with those people ‘have added absolutely nothing’. You didn’t like the posts so it’s added ‘absolutely nothing’- be a bit more hypocritical.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Is saying that Robbo can’t keep his feet anymore and has lost a yard of pace putting him down?

Is saying Lyons has lost a yard of pace, and becomes a liability as soon as the ball leaves the contest putting him down?

Is saying Rayner doesn’t run defensively and struggles with repeat efforts putting him down?

What about Zorko suffering from “old man” injuries and losing a yard of pace?

Can all be true and still be putting players down?

What about Fagan being out coached on game day, or we haven’t shown any change of game plan to beat an opposition the way that the Hawks, Fremantle, Sydney and Geelong have this season to beat a better credentialed team?


All of the above may be negatives about our players, coaches or team.

But it doesn’t change the fact they are truthful statements.

And if they are truthful, are they really negatives when we’re talking about a competitive sport, where winning is the goal.

 

[lioninthesand]

No I don’t have to agree and I don’t, you see it as an awesome conversation do you. 85% negative crap about all the things the club and coach are doing wrong. We are still top 4 and if wasn’t for Covid we would be a much better chance of finishing there. If you haven’t seen negative repetitive crap like you claim then you must have skimmed over most posts. You say ‘I would call it out’, so you would apparently do exactly what I am- but you have a problem with me doing it. You call it ‘a few supporters demanding more’, really is that what it is? So you trying to call people out for ‘putting people down’ (in your opinion) for having an opinion and then follow that with those people ‘have added absolutely nothing’. You didn’t like the posts so it’s added ‘absolutely nothing’- be a bit more hypocritical.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

This is super irrational. You’d think there was 3-4 pages of comments like ‘f*** Fagan, don’t let the door hit you on the way out’ etc looking at yours and others posts.

The conversation I have seen today has been around standards, team defence, messaging, coaching set up and ways in which we can arrest the current slide we are on.

If you think COVID is to blame for a monumental 8 week slide in form though, I get why you would proably be confused about the discussion.

Come and discuss why you think we are not in a bad position, come and discuss why you are confident we are on the right path. Respond to those posts like others have giving an opposing opinion.

You just come in, see some reasonably moderate criticism/suggestions that doesent fit your paradime and start potting people (indirectly) for having a discussion.

As I said, it adds nothing to the forum.

And yes, a bit like one poster who obsessively tries to take down joe, someone calling for Fagans head or people making abusive comments, I’d call it out - that hasn’t happened today though.

 

[Gadzorks]

This is why the previous years 'wow we are already of schedule' was so much fun.

We were all too happy to fight.

This week we are all struggling - it was a shite game when we needed a pick me up, reassuring win. A loss was always going to incite extreme emotions, about players and coaches.

I figure the 10% of comments at either end of the spectrum aren't worth anything (including some my own), so I ignore those. The rest of the comments are valid opinions about people who have chosen careers that include public opinion. Which always means they're will be knocks. They can handle it.

Let's all play nicely. This is our fun escape from the real world.

PS jezze I'm annoyingly Rah Rah sometimes. Feel free to thumbs down this post. I can handle it.

 

[Jeremiah001]

Not everybody likes doomscrolling a football forum. At least inject some humour if you are going to carry on endlessly about how hopeless our footy team is.

 

[Jeremiah001]

This is why the previous years 'wow we are already of schedule' was so much fun.

We were all too happy to fight.

This week we are all struggling - it was a shite game when we needed a pick me up, reassuring win. A loss was always going to incite extreme emotions, about players and coaches.

I figure the 10% of comments at either end of the spectrum aren't worth anything (including some my own), so I ignore those. The rest of the comments are valid opinions about people who have chosen careers that include public opinion. Which always means they're will be knocks. They can handle it.

Let's all play nicely. This is our fun escape from the real world.

PS jezze I'm annoyingly Rah Rah sometimes. Feel free to thumbs down this post. I can handle it.

Careful what you wish for.

 

[BangyBangy]

Still trying to work out which one of these relatively new negative accounts is Dylans burner.

 

[lioninthesand]

Yeah I completely agree… I don’t think it’s this forum but it’s just society as a whole these days I feel. People are so incredibly quick to cast judgement and rarely…. rarely is it ever positive. Our turnaround has been remarkable and it’s been done with sustained success in mind… we may miss out on the ultimate success with the older fellas but we are grooming blokes to take the rolls.
Judge the season as a whole at the end of the year… once we have all the required information… it’s way too easy to take pot shots with 6 rounds left plus finals

It’s a sports forum, it is a rolling thread of ideas. 50% of it is going to be positive and 50% are going to be negative. It’s a breakaway from the AFL and club news cycle which either ignores us or is vanilla. People are honest in their takes.

The Brisbane Lions Bigfooty forum is not a negative place and tbh the quality is pretty good. Go and stick your head in at the Doggies board, or the Port board (re Hinkley) or the Cats board prior to their little turn around.

We are 4 years into a top 4 window and we are facing a serious form challange, when I come here I want to see positive posts and I want to see a sharing of ideas on how to get better, critiques, left field ideas. You need the glass half full guys and the grumpy guys, that’s human nature.

I personally think that it would be an outright shame to bridle and dictate when people can offer their opinions and to take a swipe at anyone with a negative point of view everytime one is put forth.

For example - I really dislike the ongoing Lyons commentary, people are so quick to retire him. It’s been negative and OTT imo. But I don’t come with snipey remarks or demand people don’t say anything bad about him, or make it personal about his treatment/feelings - you just pick certain comments and rebutt them with content so as to impact the narrative that way.

Unless it’s abusive or unsavoury in which case the mods and others should step in.

 

[Thomasno]

It’s a sports forum, it is a rolling thread of ideas. 50% of it is going to be positive and 50% are going to be negative. It’s a breakaway from the AFL and club news cycle which either ignores us or is vanilla. People are honest in their takes.

The Brisbane Lions Bigfooty forum is not a negative place and tbh the quality is pretty good. Go and stick your head in at the Doggies board, or the Port board (re Hinkley) or the Cats board prior to their little turn around.

We are 4 years into a top 4 window and we are facing a serious form challange, when I come here I want to see positive posts and I want to see a sharing of ideas on how to get better, critiques, left field ideas. You need the glass half full guys and the grumpy guys, that’s human nature.

I personally think that it would be an outright shame to bridle and dictate when people can offer their opinions and to take a swipe at anyone with a negative point of view everytime one is put forth.

For example - I really dislike the ongoing Lyons commentary, people are so quick to retire him. It’s been negative and OTT imo. But I don’t come with snipey remarks or demand people don’t say anything bad about him, or make it personal about his treatment/feelings - you just pick certain comments and rebutt them with content so as to impact the narrative that way.

Unless it’s abusive or unsavoury in which case the mods and others should step in.

I don’t think Lyons should be retired, but I would 100% rest him for a few games. Especially when we’ve got another player from the same mould putting up ridiculous numbers in the VFL every week. Just give him a rest and bring Matho in for a few games, Lyons has really been off the pace the last couple of months, and it’s hurting us now.

 

[T Rick]

Is saying that Robbo can’t keep his feet anymore and has lost a yard of pace putting him down?

Is saying Lyons has lost a yard of pace, and becomes a liability as soon as the ball leaves the contest putting him down?

Is saying Rayner doesn’t run defensively and struggles with repeat efforts putting him down?

What about Zorko suffering from “old man” injuries and losing a yard of pace?

Can all be true and still be putting players down?

What about Fagan being out coached on game day, or we haven’t shown any change of game plan to beat an opposition the way that the Hawks, Fremantle, Sydney and Geelong have this season to beat a better credentialed team?


All of the above may be negatives about our players, coaches or team.

But it doesn’t change the fact they are truthful statements.

And if they are truthful, are they really negatives when we’re talking about a competitive sport, where winning is the goal.

My two cents worth: Opinionated posters who repeat their negative opinions ad nauseum are more often than not only preaching their perception of truth. They are fully entitled to do that on a faceless forum and I can block them or skim their vents. Likewise others can block my input. I choose not to read the "Game Day" thread because of so much negative over-reaction and it seems to me that a lot of this negativity has now spilled on to the the "Review" thread. As a Lions supporter and BF contributor, I choose not to criticise our players and coach..the keyboard warrior stuff just doesn't appeal. Every one to their own and none of us own the "truth"...we just have opinions and none of us (maybe one poster aside) has any insider knowledge of the internal messaging and full scope of personal issues, injuries and illnesses affecting players and coaching staff. In terms of Fages and his pressers, I could be wrong but I think it is his way of positive messaging rather than being a negative sourpuss in the media. Jeez, who would want to be an AFL coach or player accountable to BF posters!

 

[Gadzorks]

My two cents worth: Opinionated posters who repeat their negative opinions ad nauseum are more often than not only preaching their perception of truth. They are fully entitled to do that on a faceless forum and I can block them or skim their vents. Likewise others can block my input. I choose not to read the "Game Day" thread because of so much negative over-reaction and it seems to me that a lot of this negativity has now spilled on to the the "Review" thread. As a Lions supporter and BF contributor, I choose not to criticise our players and coach..the keyboard warrior stuff just doesn't appeal. Every one to their own and none of us own the "truth"...we just have opinions and none of us (maybe one poster aside) has any insider knowledge of the internal messaging and full scope of personal issues, injuries and illnesses affecting players and coaching staff. In terms of Fages and his pressers, I could be wrong but I think it is his way of positive messaging rather than being a negative sourpuss in the media. Jeez, who would want to be an AFL coach or player accountable to BF posters!

In reply to this bit (don't know how to bold on my phone)
Jeez, who would want to be an AFL coach or player accountable to BF posters!

Are bf posters worse/more critical/less tolerant than North's hierarchy? Fourth coach in five years coming up.

 

[Squizz89]

Other than the posts you read which you clearly know are just there for the trolls, I don't see the issue with constructive criticism of the team which I believe the majority of the forum is about;

Like it or not our circumstances have changed. If we were offered the position we are in this year back in 2017, understandably we'd be all out waving the pom poms and singing from the rooftops, but the goalposts have shifted and as such that brings pressure to everyone, as it should.

If we wanted to settle with just being a team happy to make up the numbers come finals every year, well that's fine, but I'd like to think we're a little better than that.

Like it or not, the facts are, we have not been great in different facets of the game this year, and when you begin the year with the intention of competing for a flag, and your game isn't living up to that then I think the pressure and constructive criticism is warranted. That's just like any commercial business I'd have thought.

 

[LIONS08]

Pretty sure there was a lot of positivity around here in 2019 and 2020.

We’ve moved beyond the fresh excitement of being good, and potentially contending, and some members here are starting to see that maybe this is the last year for this group of senior players, and that maybe McCluggage and Rayner aren’t enough to support Neale post Zorko and Rich.


I have some more judgements for you that aren’t positive, on the highlighted section.

I mentioned recently, in a conversation elsewhere, that I have concerns about the development of our youngsters in the reserves.

From my untrained eye, we aren’t developing the skills of our young players in the reserves. They are playing the same kick down the line, contested style that our seniors do. Which is fair enough, you want players to be able to step up to first team and know their role.

But it’s not a game style that develops players skills, encourage players to improve their kicking.

This really hit home while watching the reserves play Frankston on a Friday night a couple of months ago.

If you watched the game, you would struggle to work out which team was the reserve team for an AFL side, and which team was a stand alone team full of part timers.

We were bigger and faster, but we played ugly football down the line, and used our bigger bodies to win the contest and territory battle.

The Frankston players, while smaller, kept running the ball all night out of their defence, using overlap handballs and precise kicking to hit their players on the wing and forward flank.

What stopped Frankston winning the game wasn’t their entries in to the forward 50, which were largely on point, it was our defenders being bigger, and our younger midfielders being able to flood back, creating a numerical advantage.

Something that we don’t get at AFL level, because players are the same size or bigger at AFL level, and because the good teams move the ball much faster on the turn over, or from the kick in. Which we saw against Essendon (who aren’t a good team).

Edited post… serves me right for skim reading… sorry briz. (I agreed our twos play the same brand so they can attempt to slot in seamlessly)
Match day isn’t where you learn skills… that’s done in the thousands of hours of training! So it’s an automatic response.

 

[M Malice]

Isn’t that similar to how we play currently though? Down there line contested ball? Couldn’t you say they are being trained in the 2s to do exactly what is required if they get the call up… match day isn’t where you learn skills… that’s done in the thousands of hours of training!

Briz did say that playing that way in the reserves is understandable.

 

[irel]

Agree, I can not come at the "lack of effort" narrative, IMO it is as simple as a few players in our side are just not physically capable of gut running like the other top sides, whether that is genetic and/or lack of application in pre season who knows.... maybe our recruitment staff don't place enough emphasis on endurance when looking at players to get into the club.

I would hazard a guess that if Lachie's snap or Jimmy's long range set shot goes through in the closing moments of the game on Sunday and we go on to win most on here would be lauding our courage, grit and desire in pulling out one of our best wins in a long while.

Note- In saying that I do still think we have issues in the midfield re endurance and centre bounce strategy.

...but isn't the angst because there was no courage, grit and desire and that Fish was correct in his assessment and that Fagan's defence of a sub par effort does not sit well with supporters. It does not sit well because the expectations have been raised, individual players have and are regressing in front of our eyes and appears there is no consequence for bad performances and there is nothing more jarring to supporters than a coach of "I know best"attitude and everyone else can FO.

We are contenders after all not some flaky rebuilding, inconsistent team that wins one, losses one, wins one, loses one type team

 

[M Malice]

...but isn't the angst because there was no courage, grit and desire and that Fish was correct in his assessment and that Fagan's defence of a sub par effort does not sit well with supporters. It does not sit well because the expectations have been raised, individual players have and are regressing in front of our eyes and appears there is no consequence for bad performances and there is nothing more jarring to supporters than a coach of "I know best"attitude and everyone else can FO.

We are contenders after all not some flaky rebuilding, inconsistent team that wins one, losses one, wins one, loses one type team

The courage, grit and desire phrase was a hypothetical of what I think would of happened if we won. >

"we go on to win most on here would be lauding our courage, grit and desire in pulling out one of our best wins in a long while."

 

[SizeMatters]

The main issue with forums like this is that posters are emotionally married to their sporting team to the point that they can be blinded by any real or perceived deficiencies or criticism. A lot of the time you put your opinion out there as logical and composed as it may be but if it paints the team in any negative way you get the good old "fake supporter", "troll", or in some troubling circumstances you get individual posters who will follow you around the forum literally trying to start arguments or fights.

Are we a good team? yes. Are we a great team? no.
So obviously we have issues. It should be a safe space to discuss these without the above occurring.

 

[RoyBoy17]

Everyone shows support for their club in different ways. Some are just positive which is great. Some are balanced. Some can be a little more pessimistic. All in all we can all agree its just passion for our club coming through in different ways. We all want our Lions to win the flag. I tend to fall in the pessimistic category.

After watching us perform poorly for the best part of 10-15 years it's frustrating to see us play patchy footy with the team we have and my overriding concern is that we don't play in a manner that shows extreme hunger/ hunt for a flag. Why that's the case I got no idea and it alarms me.

I see it in the other contenders and it has showed when we play against them. Geelong, Fremantle and Melbourne showed us up for hunger and attitude over four quarters first and foremost. Not ability/ talent. That's the thing that ticks supporters off. It looks like the players just think we can flick a switch come finals. We are now really up against it to make the top 4 and it feels like another year of missed opportunities.

Frustration with the coaching staff is warranted as well in my opinion. Ignoring continuously poor individual performances from players whether we win, lose or draw has bred mediocrity.

 

[irel]

Love Fages and not after his head or anything, but that story about Fish confirms everything I am worried about.

So determined to defend/excuse what was a shitful effort from senior players, he is willing to almost come to blows with a good journo over it.

Fish was entirely correct, it was a s**t effort.

If he is that passionate about protecting their egos/looking for excuses for him/them etc, that is 100% what we are seeing filter onto the field and impacting the mental toughness of the group.

They went out their thinking ‘they were up againts it’, ‘Essendon were inform and they were lacking cattle’ and that came from the top. You can hear what Fagans lead in would have been about, he sent them out their with a victim mentality and excuses at the ready.

Time to toughen up, the rebuild was done 18 months ago, these blokes don’t need to be protected.

I had to turn his presser off at the 2 minute mark, couldn’t sit through it. It was as if he was talking about a team in the first year of a rebuild as it is most weeks. Now we know he was talking to Fish, which is worse.

‘If you look over the last 3 years we’ve been a very good footy side’, ‘that’s very unlike us’, ‘the effort was there, had we done this or that the result would have been different’, ‘they <insert s**t side> are a very good football side, we were under no illusions as to the challange today’.

He spends more time praising the oppo than talking about our deficiencies half the time.

We have a generational list, talent wise, and we have not improved/we have regressed over 2 years, all the while, patting ourselves on the back through it - living off our rapid rise 3 years ago. Indulging in the fact we should be happy we are ‘pretty good’.

Fans do it too, excusing the shameful, weak as water finals record.

Time to get our edge back because right now, we are in no man’s land.

Players are regressing, players look bored, players don’t look bought in, we don’t challange players through selection, they don’t defend - same coaches, same game plan, same s**t attitude, same mental fragility in big moments.

How is a guy like Daniher allowed to come out and flip and flop for frees 3-4 weeks in a row? Where’s the standards?

How is a guy like Rayner permitted to not defend or work hard at stoppage for a month? Where’s the standards?

Why does Zac Bailey think it’s ok to run one way week after week and play selfish footy? Where’s the standards?

How do opposition teams win 10 straight clearances or kick 40 points directly from stoppage without so much as an adjustment being made, where’s the standards?

Where’s the coaching? The only out of the box move I can think of in the last 2 years was making Berry and Clugg go head to head with Cerra and Brayshaw againts freo last year and a couple of tags. Where’s the in game changes, where’s the tactical moves - how many times do you walk away saying ‘we were outcoached today’.

Name one player that’s improved this year? Coleman, maybe starc?

Also - yes, we can take the Fitzroy mentality (I’m the most passionate Roy boy alive) and say ‘just be happy we are competitive’ but to be honest f*** that. We were PRIMED end of 2020 with a once in a 30 year list - perfect age bracket, talent coming through, stars all over the park and to be honest, we have pissed it up the wall.

We will come out and s**t the bed in finals again this year, you can see it coming a mile off. Just like most of knew straight sets was coming last year.

Because they are wrapped in cotton wool on expectations, standards arnt upheld, they are fragile and we have an antiquated game plan that couldn’t beat GWS 3 years ago and won’t win a final again this year.

What do we do, over the next 12 months?

-no one is safe. We can’t win a flag this year so use it as a period where you reset values, play the kids if you have to. Lyons, you don’t want to defend, back to the twos. Zac, you don’t defend and you play selfish football, see ya, back to the twos. Joe, you flop for another free or avoid body contact again, see ya, back to the twos. Cam, you walk back on defense again like you do every week, see ya, back to the twos. Cam (who I adore) has been given a green light since he arrived to pick and chose when he gives effort. Hipwood, you’ve had 8 weeks, we need more from you now, if you can’t impact, go back to the twos. These guys are so comfortable they are just going through the motions. I’ve been strongly againts dropping these guys in hope the worm with turn collectively, but nup, it’s not gonna happen - standards have eroded, the rot has set in, it’s time for a reset.

-team defense/pressure/effort - is a non negotiable, you don’t do it, you don’t play. How long are they going to sit back and let these blokes not defend? Week after week. Offense is our defense. Fagans mantra of ‘we are in the entertainment business’ has completely infiltrated their DNA to the point 75% of the team only run one way.

-coaching shake up - keep fages, gut the rest of the coaching dept. it is thin on talent. We have gone to s**t since Stone came in, what’s he done as our head tactician. Wasn’t he the ‘stoppage king’?. The cheap, school teacher, state league thing was cute but * it off now and get some coaches with credibility in.

-game plan - boundary, sometimes cooridore, bomb it long to a pocket, set up for a goal from stoppage was good 3 years ago, but we have been completely found out. Get an elite tactical mind in and overthrow the game plan, it’s s**t.

-Fagan senior assistant. He needs a senior support that is more a a tactical mind, a different voice for the players that commands respect. An exsisting senior assistant, recent head coach, to come in along side him who runs the coaches box. We need a fresh voice.

-another mid or two. I’ve said it the last 2 years in the offseason but apparently we were ‘deep in there’ but we need to head hunt another ready made mid. Not another running half back, not another swing man, not Jaime Elliot, not another forward hybrid that doesent defend - a mid. Easier said than done, but try.

-depth. It’s not there. Payne, Fullarton, Matho, smith… I just don’t see them being ‘next in line’, maybe ok replacements you can call on, but it’s just not there for me. Dunno what you do there but our ‘next in line’ KPP leave a lot to be desired.

- change the message. It’s not a rebuild, we are not here looking for excuses, we do not roll over when the going gets tough, we make hard selection calls, we demand excellence, we don’t * around at training showing off for Robbos go pro. The coaching philosophy is ‘culture first, don’t upset the Apple cart, it’s all fun in the sun’ - it served us well during a rebuild, but it’s time to adopt a more ruthless mode.

This is not me saying, ‘sack the coach’ or ‘burn the place to the ground’ it’s me saying.. things need a shake up, today. Enough, enough of the same old tired routine. This list, under Fagan, with the culture platform that’s been set - can win a flag, we just need a MASSIVE reset, shake up.

We win games on home ground advantage and talent, but we are going at about 50% of our capacity.

If we don’t demand more, make moves, gain an edge, recruit better coaches, put players on notice.. we will completely piss this window away and it’s gonna totally heart breaking.

Sorry… I’ve been wanting to write this for a while, but seeing Fagan being so desperate to defend that effort just made everything come into focus/made my brain explode.

I’m done with the excuses. It’s time to demand more.

Love the content, love the fact you took the time to post such a passionate expression of frustration and a call for our club to be better, to do things better.

Although you missed one "How does a guy like McCluggage perennially chokes in big game moments. Where’s the standards?

 

[irel]

The main issue with forums like this is that posters are emotionally married to their sporting team to the point that they can be blinded by any real or perceived deficiencies or criticism. A lot of the time you put your opinion out there as logical and composed as it may be but if it paints the team in any negative way you get the good old "fake supporter", "troll", or in some troubling circumstances you get individual posters who will follow you around the forum literally trying to start arguments or fights.

Are we a good team? yes. Are we a great team? no.
So obviously we have issues. It should be a safe space to discuss these without the above occurring.

This is your best post of the year. Keep the standard up. And I genuinely mean it