Autopsy Round 17: Hawks beat by Dogs

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Lickmesocks

All Australian
Oct 2, 2019
675
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Hawthorn
I mentioned after about round 4 the Jon Ceglar experiment was over.

We made the decision to keep him for 3 years and pay him but surely that does not guarantee him the position of number 1 ruck each week if a better option is sitting in the back pocket trying to save goals.

Get Ceglar out and Hartley and or Frawley in and Big Boy back into the ruck.

Harry Mo and Daniel Howe are massive concerns moving forward.
 

Lickmesocks

All Australian
Oct 2, 2019
675
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In the 2016 semi, the Bulldogs smashed us through the middle and Clarkson whinged about the umpiring. Fast forward 4 years and Bulldogs still smashing us in the middle and Clarkson still whinging about the umpiring

We sold the farm to get Wingard and Omera and topped up with Patton and Scully who’s bodies are shot and now paying the price. Cupboard is bare and we have massive holes in both key positions as well as a crap ruckman who we have to keep playing for another 2 seasons when really he should be delisted

Our list strategy decisions have failed spectacularly and we are a genuine bottom 4 side. I can deal with all if that as long as the club acknowledges their failings and moves forward.

No more spin doctoring and complaining about umpiring, hub life, other coaches tactics etc, it’s embarrassing. Time will tell

This is a very accurate summary. Difficult for lots of people to read as we all love the club but very accurate.

O’meara and Wingard for whatever reasons have not delivered on what we have paid for which hurts. When you pay top dollar you want All Australian quality results.
 

Come back Cyril

Debutant
Jul 17, 2020
99
151
AFL Club
Hawthorn
it's also worth noting that titch seems to no longer be playing as the big dog in the mids and is less focussed on clearances and racking up contested ball — obviously coming off his injury he's still not quite ready to reclaim that throne but i wonder if it will be a consistent change as Worps seems to be better as the main clearance player (and is probably more damaging than titch too)

i would be happy to give tommy a rest for next week, he looked like he was working up to 2018 form around the Carlton game but inexplicably had his worst game in probably 4 years today. given the severity of his injury, the fact he's played all our games and the irrelevance of our next match i think it would be a good decision to give him an early offseason
Desperately needs a break.

I've noticed his lack of inside work too.

The problem is that if he's not a contested beast he's a slow accumulator with dreadful disposal. Really hope that those who think he will come good next year are right...
 

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Nick the Pig

Senior List
Apr 3, 2019
198
633
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Hawthorn
So many personnel and positional changes the last few weeks that its not easy to get a good read on what Clarko has been wanting to see.

Greaves has certainly shown that he is capable in the two games he has played. He plays with confidence and good foot skills. Big tick.

Moore on the other hand hasn't shown any standout reason he should be kept on the list from the two games he has played

Today showed why Chip should be retained next season.

Cousins has saved his Hawks career the last few weeks. Morrison and Howe may have done the opposite.

Gunston and Day superb yet again. Their class and skills stand out amongst too many average teammates. Breust played ok. Wingard had good patches.

Shiels struggled again as he has all year. Mitchell also really poor today after one of his better games last week. Jaeger probably still not ready to come back. Typical first gamer from Finn. Lots of effort but struggled with the pace.
 

Zack

Club Legend
Apr 14, 2002
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I mentioned after about round 4 the Jon Ceglar experiment was over.
I've been more than angry at Ceglar this season.

However he is one guy that does have the tools to be good, it's completely between his ears. However so far not even Clarko or Monkhurst has been able to get him over that fear.

Last week first bounce he goes for the ball and we are all over St.Kilda.
He did start looking around the 15 minute mark when Paddy came back and they got on top of us. But he was ok overall. Mindset was there.

This week he reverts to watching the opposition ruckman at first bounce so he doesn't get hurt and we are cactus.
You actually know what sort of game he is going to have based on that first bounce. It's not if he wins it or not it's if he tries to protect himself or not.

He does often win those tapouts first and give it straight to the oppo mainly because he is off kilter protecting himself so the ball is going to the wrong area. He's almost always a pre-meditated tap, he's definitely no Simon Madden getting up there and spotting a better option or even adjusting slightly. (Not many are Madden's adjusting slightly there are plenty)

Yes when getting ripped one at times or late in the last he goes for it again, such as yesterday being told just punch it forward later in the game, or grab it from around the ground mainly throw ins. He can do it. It's getting him the confidence to do it without fear of injury.
 

grumbleguts

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 14, 2011
9,650
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Bont hasn’t taken a short step his entire career. To assume he’s milking a free against the Hawks today is beyond presumptuous, especially given how much he was throwing himself the ball around today.
Fixed.

You self entitled mummy's boy. Normally I like to attack intruders here with subtle humour and wit, but never bulldogs supporters who say any one of their collectiion of human detritus doesn't milk frees.

This is what a culture of milking frees does:

1600033890127.png


Here is the same list broken into home games
1600033998020.png



And away games
1600033952273.png



You bulldogs supporters are so hyper-entitled as a result of being so ridiculously favoured by the umpires you actually think your players have a third arm allowing them to dispose of the ball legally despite having one of them pinned.

You think you're hard done by when the free kick count is 4:3 because you are so used to 7:3.


It's so ingrained in your club's culture you don't even notice it and are astounded when people point it out.

It's like a guy in a $3000 three piece suit in his BMW and his private-school-engineered education looking at a homeless man and is astounded he doesn't invest in bonds to make enough money to buy a house. Since the ridiculous debacle of handing the throwdogs a flag in 2016 for what? Pity? They have become the laughing stock of the league.
 
Last edited:

A Diakos

All Australian
Apr 17, 2012
931
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Fixed.

You self entitled mummy's boy. Normally I like to attack intruders here with subtle humour and wit, but never bulldogs supporters who say any one of their collectiion of human detritus doesn't milk frees.

This is what a culture of milking frees does:

View attachment 960897

Here is the same list broken into home games
View attachment 960899


And away games
View attachment 960898


You bulldogs supporters are so hyper-entitled as a result of being so ridiculous favoured by the umpires you actually think your players have a third arm allowing them to dispose of the ball legally despite having one of them pinned.

You think you're hard done by when the free kick count is 4:3 because you are so used to 7:3.


It's so ingrained in your club's culture you don't even notice it are are astounded when people point it out.

It's like a guy in a $3000 three piece suit in his BMW and his private-school-engineered education looking at a homeless man and is astounded he doesn't invest in bonds to make enough money to buy a house. Since the ridiculous debacle of handing the throwdogs a flag in 2016 for what? Pity? They have become the laughing stock of the league.
great post and stats here
 

dermott

Club Legend
Oct 9, 2004
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I just noted our Inside 50 efficiency was circa 24% which was confirmation of my observations that we have enormous improvement required in that area.
Unfortunately our forward entries would make life difficult for any player.
We need a lot of work on skills by hand and foot and no doubt our recruitment/development plans will be working on that.
 

local hack

Team Captain
Mar 26, 2017
374
612
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Bruest was our best player along side Gunston no idea what game you were watching.

Breust has been one of the best small forwards in the comp over the last decade and is an absolute champ. My observation was that early in the game he lost one on one contests that he normally doesn't, so I probably hold him up to higher standards. No need for the insults.
 

rogiebear93

Norm Smith Medallist
May 17, 2017
5,837
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Fixed.

You self entitled mummy's boy. Normally I like to attack intruders here with subtle humour and wit, but never bulldogs supporters who say any one of their collectiion of human detritus doesn't milk frees.

This is what a culture of milking frees does:

View attachment 960897

Here is the same list broken into home games
View attachment 960899


And away games
View attachment 960898


You bulldogs supporters are so hyper-entitled as a result of being so ridiculously favoured by the umpires you actually think your players have a third arm allowing them to dispose of the ball legally despite having one of them pinned.

You think you're hard done by when the free kick count is 4:3 because you are so used to 7:3.


It's so ingrained in your club's culture you don't even notice it and are astounded when people point it out.

It's like a guy in a $3000 three piece suit in his BMW and his private-school-engineered education looking at a homeless man and is astounded he doesn't invest in bonds to make enough money to buy a house. Since the ridiculous debacle of handing the throwdogs a flag in 2016 for what? Pity? They have become the laughing stock of the league.
One thing I've noted since the 2016 premiership was the pioneering of the 'throw self forward to handball' act which, in effect, does two things:

1. It disguises a throw
2. It draws in the back or high frees

The go-to move for all Doggies midfielders has crept into the play of players from other clubs - Geelong in particular. It's infuriating.
 

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rogiebear93

Norm Smith Medallist
May 17, 2017
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Can't believe people are surprised we weren't competitive when we've made more than 20 changes to the team over the past 3 weeks, bringing people in and moving people out - not letting the team get settled.

No team can win like this. I'm taking very little out of these games, and I still think that things can turn around quickly enough with the right list decisions.
 

hawk for 37

Club Legend
Jun 24, 2008
1,432
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Most observations here about our game style/plan centre on our poor midfield..with good reason, yet noone has yet to mention or question our midfield coach......
Is that like shooting Bambi? Sam has a fair while to work with these guys now.
 

darthmann

Club Legend
Jun 11, 2013
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Can't believe people are surprised we weren't competitive when we've made more than 20 changes to the team over the past 3 weeks, bringing people in and moving people out - not letting the team get settled.

No team can win like this. I'm taking very little out of these games, and I still think that things can turn around quickly enough with the right list decisions.
yeah at half time it looked like it would be a 60+ point drubbing so if anything i was fairly pleased we managed to take control of the game in the second half. if we had a better connection between mids and fwds (the problem we've had for 3 years now) i reckon we would've actually pushed the dogs in the last quarter.

as i think we all know these games are more about list decisions come next week and trying to avoid injury than anything else
 

savagelunchbox

I'm being followed by a moonshadow.
Jan 4, 2011
10,245
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in the corner of a circle
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Hawthorn
That was Finn's first game in close to 14 months.

You cannot count 12-a-side, bruise free games as games. So not only has he not had VFL games to help adapt to the faster game, he's come into a significantly faster game after 12 months of no games.

Based on that, he did okay in a midfield that was getting belted.
 

Zack

Club Legend
Apr 14, 2002
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Most observations here about our game style/plan centre on our poor midfield..with good reason, yet noone has yet to mention or question our midfield coach......
Is that like shooting Bambi? Sam has a fair while to work with these guys now.
I thought Burgoyne was Bambi, Clarko already shot Sam once to WCE.
 

darthmann

Club Legend
Jun 11, 2013
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Most observations here about our game style/plan centre on our poor midfield..with good reason, yet noone has yet to mention or question our midfield coach......
Is that like shooting Bambi? Sam has a fair while to work with these guys now.
the thing is, he hasn't really had a chance at all

last year we lost titch so he turned worps into the youngest BnF winner since lethal, but he certainly didn't have our full midfield complement to try and coach to work together, yet by the end of the year he managed to turn our mid of Worpel, Shiels, Wingard and JOM into a very strong one.

then this year after round 4 we were obviously uprooted and the way we train completely altered, making it difficult to get 2 contested ball mids who have never played together to jell. that's not to mention JOM and worps have all missed periods, wingard was moved to be played as a fwd, cousins is a new member of the center trio etc.

i think it's premature to be collapsing on sam given his very difficult situation and his track record with a limited midfield in 2019 and what he did for the Weagles mids in 18
 

Kanga Commando

Club Legend
Apr 10, 2017
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Fixed.

You self entitled mummy's boy. Normally I like to attack intruders here with subtle humour and wit, but never bulldogs supporters who say any one of their collectiion of human detritus doesn't milk frees.

This is what a culture of milking frees does:

View attachment 960897

Here is the same list broken into home games
View attachment 960899


And away games
View attachment 960898


You bulldogs supporters are so hyper-entitled as a result of being so ridiculously favoured by the umpires you actually think your players have a third arm allowing them to dispose of the ball legally despite having one of them pinned.

You think you're hard done by when the free kick count is 4:3 because you are so used to 7:3.


It's so ingrained in your club's culture you don't even notice it and are astounded when people point it out.

It's like a guy in a $3000 three piece suit in his BMW and his private-school-engineered education looking at a homeless man and is astounded he doesn't invest in bonds to make enough money to buy a house. Since the ridiculous debacle of handing the throwdogs a flag in 2016 for what? Pity? They have become the laughing stock of the league.
Whilst almost everything you have said is perfect, you could be incorrect on one vital stat.

They are hyper-entitled because they are perpetual loosers with an inferiority complex. That they need to venture into here speaks volumes for their feeble sense of self esteem.
 

Lickmesocks

All Australian
Oct 2, 2019
675
2,396
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Harry Mo and Daniel Howe are massive concerns moving forward.
Gotta be first couple to go I would think. Just terribly slow. Seen enough.
[/QUOTE]


I know it has been mentioned numerous times Harry Mo is a Nick Ries clone but I also think Dan Howe is a Tommy Murphy clone. Similar height and pace and unfortunately does not have the speed of mind to get ball from hand to boot quick enough. Too slow to ever be a run with mid and not clean enough to be a defender when under pressure.
 

moginie

Norm Smith Medallist
Feb 14, 2008
9,522
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i think Silk played down back today to help out with Frawley not getting up and maybe give some direction

not a success but neither was anything else
Yes. He started the first and third quarters (the end that I was at) on Wallis. What was encouraging was that Scrimshaw was doing a lot of the directing in the backline.
 

kazzooka

Club Legend
May 20, 2010
2,396
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Gotta be first couple to go I would think. Just terribly slow. Seen enough.

I know it has been mentioned numerous times Harry Mo is a Nick Ries clone but I also think Dan Howe is a Tommy Murphy clone. Similar height and pace and unfortunately does not have the speed of mind to get ball from hand to boot quick enough. Too slow to ever be a run with mid and not clean enough to be a defender when under pressure.
[/QUOTE]
While i think Howe does bring something to the team in hardness and size around contests and i think morrison a few years ago was having a good contribution if they were both de-listed nobody can complain about the chances they got. Both given plenty of games and never really got out of that phase where as someone in their first 5 games looked decent but not doing enough to be a senior player.

Cousins i think is really contributing and doesn't look out of place with Mitchell, Worpel, Omeara or Sheils. Morrison and Howe still look like the trainees.
 

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