Autopsy Round 18, 2021: Hawks draw with Demons

[flinchfree]

of course gameplan has something do with it, but he's arguing that the execution of the gameplan will vary from week-to-week and that the reason there's such variance in us playing 'slow and safe' and 'releasing the shackles' has as much (or more) to do with the opposition and our poor skills, than our coaching/training

I don't think that's what he's arguing, but that's ok.

I agree that your success with executing a game plan well and even playing it are dependent on plenty of variables.
I'll leave it with this.
Direct from Clarko's mouth, pre the Bombers game in Lonny, he said we would specifically NOT be looking to move the ball quickly because that would play into Essendon's strengths and they'd hurt us too much going the other way.

My opinion is that Clarko's philosophy as instilled since when he came into the club has been based on a defense first thinking. When he managed to pull in some incredible ripper players who could defend and then have the skills to be the best counter attack team I'VE EVER SEEN, and over a number of seasons refine them in their belief in how to carrry that plan out, it cemented for him his thinking on the best way to be successful.

As the team members have changed and new players with different strengths and weaknesses have come in, I believe he's tried to fit some very square shutters into his beautiful round window.
It's been 6 or so seasons now that change has been underway, and he hasn't had success with his overall plan because he no longer has the players able to execute it. I doubt he would ever happen upon the same group, because it relied on absolute out of this world forwards in Buddy & Cyril and an electric finisher in Breust, together with the ferocity of Poppy and Rough, to slay oppo teams in spurts of extraordinary efforts. It wasn't the pure methodology of leading up systems like Geelong and the Toasters have used......it was simply highlight material on a weekly basis while controlling the games even when we lost the contested or first use of the footy. Don't forget, our premiership teams under Clarko weren't exactly juggernoughts that blew out teams by 10 goals ever week. They simply found a way.

Without those All Time sublime forwards, we'd never have had the finishing that all the other hard work around the ground produced and I doubt more than 1 Cup, let alone the 4 he's nabbed.

Other teams haven't had that talent we did, but found ways through other styles of playing the game.
I reckon we could have won more than we have in recent seasons, and more importantly developed some players to highlight their strengths rather than expose their weaknesses by trialling different game styles.

But I'm just a tragic so doesn't mean s**t.
And I definitely understand now why so many think Clarko should stay forevers while I'm comfortable with going with a new head. Lets see in a couple seasons as time should be able to reveal whether the same players can look very different and play very differently CONSISTENTLY under different instructions, or are simply going to maintain the vagaries of their displayed form.

 

[HedgeFund]

Most teams are coached 3 speeds of attack:

Green - keep the ball in motion by hand / foot, surge forward
Yellow - tic tac foot passing with high uncontested marks to progress the ball forward (minimal bombing to 1-v-1s)
Red - retain at all costs, milk the clock.

Defensive method is either:

Old school 1 on 1 - direct player responsibility
A loose zone - area responsibility
Cluster defence - all within 60m of the ball

These combinations are taught, drilled and implemented based on the game situation. The coaches may decided to instruct a change from one offensive / defensive style to the other from game to game or even within a game, but not every coach has the cattle to execute that change when the situation requires.

 

[thehardway]

The games where we play so called attractive game plan seem to coincide with us actually equalising the clearances and contested possessions. Its amazing how when you kick down the line and then win a clearance from that congestion how much better u look. Last week we were flogged in that stat. This week we were flogged in the first qtr but were exceptional for the rest of the game. We still went down the line. Dont tell me that this was the only game we had players leading because Jeka kicked his first last week from a lead

Yep and that's what is so frustrating. When our midfield turns up to play we're a different team. But so often this year our midfield hasn't turned up. We probably rely far too much on Jags, TOM, Worpel and Shiels and desperately need some other quality mids to run through there. There does appear though to be a reluctance to change things when the midfield is getting beaten but maybe that is possibly because the above 4 players lack the flexibility to play another position.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Everyone suggesting the gameplan changed last night , would love your advice on how its possible to flick a switch and collective change things totally on a week turnaround .

As a cricket/batting coach Ive never been able to do this ( maybe im not very good ), and it goes against everything taught at high level coaching courses regarding repitition , structures and tactics.

Thanks in advance

Currently watching the Swans and GWS games .... something looks a bit familiar

"Fellas, this week they have Gawn contesting every long ball and a midfield full of bulls. So, we're moving up the line, never holding it long and not bombing. Instead we'll focus on overlapping run and shorter kicks right up the boundary. Whatever you do, DO NOT kick into the middle when you can kick up the line and have it spoiled out of bounds."

 

[Carl Spackler]

The gameplan doesn't magically change week to week, our execution of it does.

Was it against Geelong earlier this year where Howe tried a long kick to Burgoyne across the middle in order to try and change the angle of attack? Turnover results and the Cats blow up the middle for a crushing goal. Clarkson says after the match that Howe was doing exactly what he's been instructed to do.

Since the bye we've had one game, against Freo unfortunately, where switches of play and corridor attacks were on order. That game, unfortunately, was filled with indecisiveness, unbelievable skill errors and horrid start-and-stop play. No one said "miss every handball and play slower than a nursing home grandmothers league." But someone did say, "Ok, we're going to take them on up the middle. So attack inwards whenever you can. Funnel our play toward the top of the 50."

 

[Mrzohs]

A great result you would take that any day of the week leading up to the game! Although I can't stand a draw, Especially the fight we showed to come back with the players we had missing. I think we more clawed our way back than outplayed the Demons it was a scrappy match.

-I wouldn't read to much into this game Melbourne looked 10-20% off.
-We got beaten in contested,uncontested possies,i50,marks,clearences, the one stat we had going for us we lead the tackle count 81-60, showing our effort was A+.

-Positives I think we have found a player in Bramble.
-Cousins was very good he seems to offer something different to our usual setup, I wanna see this regularly.

- Negatives
Still a few of the boys we want to make the step up from the vfl look lost at sea at the afl level.

 

[Lickmesocks]

Last nights version of Worpel is the one we need to drive this midfield forward. Tough, relentless and with sharp clean hands. Also No coincidence that we start to win some clearance with a ruckman with more reach

Agree on the ruck. Gawn normally makes Ceglar and McEvoy look like kids when we play him. Atleast big Ned has a point of difference with his size and reach.

 

[TassieGrown]

Yeah true, if only our coaches had thought of that earlier. We’d be undefeated!

If only

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Agree on the ruck. Gawn normally makes Ceglar and McEvoy look like kids when we play him. Atleast big Ned has a point of difference with his size and reach.

Neds going to be huge for us.

 

[Gaston]

Last night we kicked inside the forward line with a mix of skill and the Jordan Lewis

Jordan Lewis

Age

37

Ht

186cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

D/M

Career

Season

Last 5

D

23.5

5star

K

12.1

4star

HB

11.5

5star

M

5.5

5star

T

2.7

4star

MG

310.5

4star

No current season stats available

D

15.0

4star

K

6.8

3star

HB

8.2

5star

M

4.8

5star

T

2.8

5star

/Sam Mitchell chaos ball.
I am left to ask, I wonder where that directive came from?
Was very obvious that we didn't want to kick long and high to Melbourne's defensive zones.

 

[robiecampbellbrown]

O'Brien still hasn't played in a losing side to Melbourne

Wayne Carey wrote an article about the top 10 forwards of the modern era (from 2000 onwards) in the context of Riewoldt's 300th game. Didn't list Jarryd Roughead. Brain dead. The football media in Australia is a closed shop and it will never change so long as the broadcasters continue to employ washed up ex-footballers who can't buy a clue.

I don’t usually notice the commentary as I am usually too wrapped up in the game. But last night I did. The whinging about that 50m penalty was painful. And there were so many the drops Melbourne players got away with when tackled. We actually won the free kick count though probably through tackling.

 

[robiecampbellbrown]

Neds going to be huge for us.

He is already huge

 

[TheFourPillars]

and to that point, how many goals/score opps did we get from just banging it inside 50 after winning the contested ball? either from clearance, or from a down the line kick.

that had nothing to do with free-flowing, gameplan play where we controlled how we traversed the MCG, it was literally just instinctual pumping it fwd.

where the gameplan was actually changed and resulted in us nearly winning was something everyone bitched and moaned about on Thursday night — the decision to go tall and contest Melbourne in the air. We are aware that their defensive structures are probably top 3 in the league (if not top 1) and knew we would likely have to go along the boundary down the line a lot. So, we went in tall to stop May, Lever and Gawn from picking those kicks off. We turned them all into 50/50 ground balls, where skill and execution isn't as important as hunger and pressure. Once the ball hits the ground, those three are suddenly far less effective.

Now THAT is something we did different with our gameplan, not this 'shackles' stuff. We 'won' last night because of our immense pressure.

Great post exactly right

 

[satan1]

Last night we kicked inside the forward line with a mix of skill and the Jordan Lewis/Sam Mitchell chaos ball.
I am left to ask, I wonder where that directive came from?
Was very obvious that we didn't want to kick long and high to Melbourne's defensive zones.

Definitely changed at QTR time.
Unsure on the intercept stats but in the first it seemed we were happy to kick it high to may and lever.
After that we were going in with much lower passes in front of forwards.

 

[grumbleguts]

Wasn't Carey the genius who cast doubts on Sam Mitchell's credentials to get a game with any other club outside of Hawthorn?

Yes. It was also him who thought it was OK to glass girls, screw his captains wife and also disagree with himself.

 

[Roddy]

Yes. It was also him who thought it was OK to glass girls, screw his captains wife and also disagree with himself.
View attachment 1180490

Wayne Carey is simultaneously the best footballer I have ever seen and one of the shittest bokes going around,

 

[Hawthorn23]

 

[Kanga Commando]

Carey was a great footballer but not a great intellect.

Anthony Stevens agrees with this comment.

 

[parsons nose]

Agree on the ruck. Gawn normally makes Ceglar and McEvoy look like kids when we play him. Atleast big Ned has a point of difference with his size and reach.

I’ve been saying this for weeks, he should have come straight back in after the ankle tweak. The outcome of the Essendon game may well have been different if he did.

 

[hawk for 37]

Judging by the length of some of these posts….life in lockdown..
TLDR rule is getting a fair workout!

 

[Roddy]

Did anyone else notice that Carey didn’t say a word when the commentators were talking about family violence last night ?

 

[grumbleguts]

One thing I learnt on the weekend: You shouldn't have a haircut that makes you look like a dickhead if you have Bayley Fritsch

31

Bayley Fritsch

Age

27

Ht

188cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.6

4star

K

10.4

4star

HB

5.2

4star

M

5.5

5star

T

2.0

4star

G

0.9

4star

D

9.5

2star

K

7.7

3star

HB

1.8

1star

M

5.0

5star

T

1.0

2star

G

1.3

5star

D

11.8

3star

K

7.8

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

4.4

4star

T

2.4

4star

G

1.4

5star

's face.

 

[Pessimistic]

I don't think that's what he's arguing, but that's ok.

I agree that your success with executing a game plan well and even playing it are dependent on plenty of variables.
I'll leave it with this.
Direct from Clarko's mouth, pre the Bombers game in Lonny, he said we would specifically NOT be looking to move the ball quickly because that would play into Essendon's strengths and they'd hurt us too much going the other way.

My opinion is that Clarko's philosophy as instilled since when he came into the club has been based on a defense first thinking. When he managed to pull in some incredible ripper players who could defend and then have the skills to be the best counter attack team I'VE EVER SEEN, and over a number of seasons refine them in their belief in how to carrry that plan out, it cemented for him his thinking on the best way to be successful.

As the team members have changed and new players with different strengths and weaknesses have come in, I believe he's tried to fit some very square shutters into his beautiful round window.
It's been 6 or so seasons now that change has been underway, and he hasn't had success with his overall plan because he no longer has the players able to execute it. I doubt he would ever happen upon the same group, because it relied on absolute out of this world forwards in Buddy & Cyril and an electric finisher in Breust, together with the ferocity of Poppy and Rough, to slay oppo teams in spurts of extraordinary efforts. It wasn't the pure methodology of leading up systems like Geelong and the Toasters have used......it was simply highlight material on a weekly basis while controlling the games even when we lost the contested or first use of the footy. Don't forget, our premiership teams under Clarko weren't exactly juggernoughts that blew out teams by 10 goals ever week. They simply found a way.

Without those All Time sublime forwards, we'd never have had the finishing that all the other hard work around the ground produced and I doubt more than 1 Cup, let alone the 4 he's nabbed.

Other teams haven't had that talent we did, but found ways through other styles of playing the game.
I reckon we could have won more than we have in recent seasons, and more importantly developed some players to highlight their strengths rather than expose their weaknesses by trialling different game styles.

But I'm just a tragic so doesn't mean sh*t.
And I definitely understand now why so many think Clarko should stay forevers while I'm comfortable with going with a new head. Lets see in a couple seasons as time should be able to reveal whether the same players can look very different and play very differently CONSISTENTLY under different instructions, or are simply going to maintain the vagaries of their displayed form.

let me get this right, you are arguing Clarko has under achieved? Kudos for you taking that one on

 

[cryptor]

I reckon TOM read what Kane Cornes

Kane Cornes

Age

41

Ht

183cm

Wt

78kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

23.5

5star

K

12.5

5star

HB

11.0

5star

M

5.2

5star

T

3.3

5star

CL

2.6

4star

No current season stats available

D

13.0

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

5.4

4star

M

3.0

3star

T

1.2

3star

said about him playing for cheap, ineffective, stat-padding touches and it lit a fire under him. Worked ultra hard all game and really made himself dangerous. Play like that every week and all the criticism about "does he hurt teams?" will completely dry up.

 

[TooOldTooSlowTooGood]

Judging by the length of some of these posts….life in lockdown..
TLDR rule is getting a fair workout!

I wanted to say this!!