Review Round 18, 2023 - Melbourne vs. Brisbane Lions

[Sproj]

Shutting the game down so early symptom of fatigue? Melbourne may have noticed this at the time and/or expected it to happen.

Fatigue because players making extra runs to make up for lack of defensive run from others?

Players who I see are or suspect are poor defensive runners:

Daniher - not required or expected to be a great defensive runner when not on the ball.

Gunston - has lost the ability to run defensively. May be an upgrade on McStay in some respects but a downgrade athletically and arguably in contested marking. McStay was IMO a better defender last year when sent back than Gunston is at this stage of his career. McStay’s workrate probably underrated. I felt that McStay probably could have played a mid/wing role if we required it and he worked on it during the preseason. Not a mistake to let him go for the money he was being offered though.


Lyons if we/he don’t win the clearance he generally becomes a liability. He can be quite slow on the spread defensively.

Rayner, doesn’t have the want or maybe the gas tank to do so. Can get sucked in hunting the ball. Has probably had his best year to date and keeps threatening to break a game open. He looked more settled in a hybrid 3rd tall role which also allowed us an extra runner to cover for his defensive short comings.

Oscar/Fort neither are great athletes. Don’t expect your ruckmen to be a great defensive runner either way. You need a ruckman, realistically each ruckmans is going to cancel each other out when talking about defensive run. Ruckman, as Gawn showed over the weekend can be a huge asset in defensive setup though. Oscar has shown the ability to do so but was massively outplayed. I expect Gawn may have pushed O to the point of exhaustion. I don’t believe bringing in two ruckman is the answer though, I don’t see the point in trying to h2h with Melbourne in a ruck battle by bringing 2 x ruckman who are both worse than either Melbourne ruck. We are better off trying to take advantage of the weaknesses their two-ruck setup will have. Harris to play on resting ruck.

Teams can only afford to carry a few guys who can’t or won’t run defensively, the first/easiest player to give a pass to is Joe. You cop poor defensive run from your #1 key forward and it is almost an expectation that they will not give you great defensive run. Joe is probably no weaker than any other key forward in this aspect and does run defensively at times. The way I see it, if x is the number of poor defensive runners you can realistically cover for a full game, then you cannot go over x in the modern game regardless of what other players may bring to the table offensively. What x actually is, is up for debate, I think it is 3 at most(not including #1 ruck). Lets say for arguments sake say those 3 players when we have played our best with the 2 forward set up are Rayner, Neale and Daniher. Which isn’t that out of the ordinary 2 x forwards, 1 x #1 mid. You don’t expect your #1 KPF and #1 mid to be great defensively all game. With Rayner you hope offensively what he brings outweighs what he doesn’t bring defensively but can cover his endurance, rather than a lack of intent over a game.

With Rayner, Gunston, Lyons, Zorko, Daniher and Neale all playing on the weekend, our run in general suffered but particuarly on defence. Your remaining 16 players probably need to run an extra 15-20% more/harder. With 10 mins left in the game, or 12.5% of game time left when they started to run over us/we failed to shut the game down and looked more fatigued than they did. I'm not giving Rayner a pass, but it is my belief that he offers more than Gunston both defensively and offensively which is why I would drop Gunston ahead of him. Rayner still needs to work on his tank though, without it he will never be the player he has the raw talent to be.

Important aspect of team balance is now a teams ability to cover ground defensively. This is why IMO 2 dedicated ruckmen has gone out of favour and potentially why the Demons looked better in spurts, particularly late against us than they have all year. More runners.

Disappointing thing (although still a big silver lining in a way) is it looked to me like the young guys + Daniher were the ones who really drove our comeback/dominance and the leaders in the team (outside of Clugg) did not step up, especially when it mattered most towards the end. The first crack does show that Gunston, mentally still has great awareness and game sense and looked like he was making the right calls but others weren't listening or couldn't hear him. But athletically the game has gone past him unless something changes quickly for him. Either way, we have a lot of experienced players now, we shouldn't need another premiership hawk to act as a kind of on field coach, our players are mature enough that they shouldn't need it anymore.

This is a fantastic post and nails the issue I think. It also should be shown to the coaching staff on why Fagan needs to make the tough decisions on some of his favourites who just don’t run. If he goes back to Rich this week, this season and era I will concede becomes a write off. This really will be a sliding doors moment for the club this week. Which way will they go?

 

[Nunez]

I still can’t believe nothing has been made of Oscar’s soft as pathetically weak effort against Viney late one the game. It’s as if people are trying to ignore or protect Oscar from criticism he should be copping.

Oscar has copped it repeatedly since the game. Quit with the phony outrage.

 

[M Malice]

Oscar has copped it repeatedly since the game. Quit with the phony outrage.

What people are not taking into account is his opposition, Max Gawn is one of the best 2-3 ruckmen of the AFL era who played what some would say is a career best game.

Also would have helped O if we didn't keep kicking it on top of Max's head all game.

 

[Kernel Kurtz]

I still can’t believe nothing has been made of Oscar’s soft as pathetically weak effort against Viney late one the game. It’s as if people are trying to ignore or protect Oscar from criticism he should be copping.

More praise for Viney than Oscars failure in that instance.
Oscar would of been thinking I got to get a disposal away, it's not like he could of tucked it under his wing and run away, it's afl, you cannot get caught with the ball if you have had prior and all that s**t.
That doesn't mean I think Oscar had a good game , he was terrible imo.
I would not drop him but instruct him to attack the ball at the bounce or throw ins ,and if he continues to player watch he will be back to the second team.
He needs to be told , what ever happens don't let your opponent get to the ball first.

 

[Nathan Barley]

What people are not taking into account is his opposition, Max Gawn is one of the best 2-3 ruckmen of the AFL era who played what some would say is a career best game.

Also would have helped O if we didn't keep kicking it on top of Max's head all game.

And Oscar is a 50 year old bloke taken from C grade amateurs?

 

[SizeMatters]

the sad reality is that if it's a close-ish game going into the fourth quarter opposition know they are a chance to run down the Lions. Opposition coaches will be pumping the team up at 3/4 time. We have been pathetic all year in last quarters - just don't have that killer instinct.

 

[Squizz89]

the sad reality is that if it's a close-ish game going into the fourth quarter opposition know they are a chance to run down the Lions. Opposition coaches will be pumping the team up at 3/4 time. We have been pathetic all year in last quarters - just don't have that killer instinct.

Starting to suspect it may not be a lack of "killer instinct", but the fact we just don't the fitness to run out the game. Won't matter against teams we have the talent to beat, but will end up costing us in a close final if it ends up that way.

FWIW, this off-season I'd be running the players into the ground (not literally, but certainly harder). As I said the other day, you may pick up the odd extra soft tissue injury or two, but you take that risk to have an overall fitter team.

 

[SizeMatters]

Starting to suspect it may not be a lack of "killer instinct", but the fact we just don't the fitness to run out the game. Won't matter against teams we have the talent to beat, but will end up costing us in a close final if it ends up that way.

FWIW, this off-season I'd be running the players into the ground (not literally, but certainly harder). As I said the other day, you may pick up the odd extra soft tissue injury or two, but you take that risk to have an overall fitter team.

Yup. All part of the bigger picture. Lack fitness, leadership, mental toughness and coaching nous. We have the talent on paper just need to unlock it.

 

[haystark]

the sad reality is that if it's a close-ish game going into the fourth quarter opposition know they are a chance to run down the Lions. Opposition coaches will be pumping the team up at 3/4 time. We have been pathetic all year in last quarters - just don't have that killer instinct.

This hurts even more because we used to be the team that always felt like we could chase a score down in the fourth quarter. Now we just seem happy to get a lead and then try and hold on to it for dear life. You don’t win premierships playing like that.

 

[Pride of lions]

I think back to the three peat days and we had so many players that were desperate to win and who would will themselves on in difficult situations and put themselves on the line to achieve victory. Amongst our current list I can only think of Answerth and Matho and neither of them are in the best 22. Sadly it seems to me we just don’t have that type of player in the team and that is why we cave under pressure. We seem to have the talent but not the iron will to win a flag.

 

[Squizz89]

Found these stats quite interesting from last weeks game:
Average age - Brisbane (26.3), Demons (25.9);
Average games played - Brisbane (124), Demons (114)

The narrative around us still needing to "learn" just doesn't wash. At some point we have to put our big boy panties on and show the rest of the competition, but more importantly ourselves, that the years of "learnings" have actually meant something and we now know what to do when we find ourselves in positions like we did on Friday.

 

[Elixuh]

I don't doubt he tries. He just doesn't care

What does this even mean? Like what does this translate to in your own mind?

 

[Section 5]

Starting to suspect it may not be a lack of "killer instinct", but the fact we just don't the fitness to run out the game. Won't matter against teams we have the talent to beat, but will end up costing us in a close final if it ends up that way.

FWIW, this off-season I'd be running the players into the ground (not literally, but certainly harder). As I said the other day, you may pick up the odd extra soft tissue injury or two, but you take that risk to have an overall fitter team.

After the preseason training was completed, Dunkley was interviewed on how he was going.
He specifically mentioned that the Lions did way more running than he ever did at the Dogs.

 

[mpal6]

I've now exhausted all my up, down, angry, helpless, raging, stoic emotional states over this one point loss.

Going to bury myself in draft board and other threads, see you all on Gameday saturday.

It's Gabba and we normally rebound well after such a close loss so watch out Geelong !!!

 

[Squizz89]

After the preseason training was completed, Dunkley was interviewed on how he was going.
He specifically mentioned that the Lions did way more running than he ever did at the Dogs.

I'd be shocked if he said anything else to be honest. He's not exactly going to say the preseason he just did was easier than previously about his new employer. When has a player ever said that, from one preseason to the next even at their same club?

I'm not saying it wasn't harder, it may very well have been (who knows), but you only have to look at the way we play on field, to suggest we aren't a great running team.

 

[Nathan Barley]

After the preseason training was completed, Dunkley was interviewed on how he was going.
He specifically mentioned that the Lions did way more running than he ever did at the Dogs.

Didn't McStay say Collingwood did more as well?

I think it's just a line new recruits say

 

[Section 5]

Didn't McStay say Collingwood did more as well?

I think it's just a line new recruits say

I have no idea if McStay said that.
Let's assume he did, and both are correct.
Pies over Lions and Lions over Dogs for preseason running
Then take into consideration the heat in Brisbane and i doubt we need to increase our running load a great deal.

I'd be shocked if he said anything else to be honest. He's not exactly going to say the preseason he just did was easier than previously about his new employer. When has a player ever said that, from one preseason to the next even at their same club?

I'm not saying it wasn't harder, it may very well have been (who knows), but you only have to look at the way we play on field, to suggest we aren't a great running team.

 

[Nathan Barley]

I have no idea if McStay said that.
Let's assume he did, and both are correct.
Pies over Lions and Lions over Dogs for preseason running
Then take into consideration the heat in Brisbane and i doubt we need to increase our running load a great deal.

Running in the heat helps you finish the game strongly on a cold Melbourne night?

 

[Mr Ripper]

I think we're fit enough physically...

 

[p4p1]

Running in the heat helps you finish the game strongly on a cold Melbourne night?

According to most of the research, yes. Assuming you are doing the correct amount of work to begin with.

 

[p4p1]

There were also some other moments you can pick out, like McKenna missing Ashcroft from a kick out.

I was more making the point that Oscar was part of that starting midfield unit that got smashed.

Obviously the kick was poor but so was Ashcrofts reading of the kick. If he back tracked a step or two (he had time) while the ball was in flight, he takes an easy mark or at worst maintains possession. I thought that was also a sign of fatigue, but for a first year player, playing full time mid mins, I don't think he can be critiqued for being tired late in a game either.

 

[Section 5]

I think we're fit enough physically...

Agree, mentally is the challenge at the back end of the season.

 

[McIvor]

Oscar has copped it repeatedly since the game. Quit with the phony outrage.

How is it phony; it was a pathetic and weak act that needs calling out and something I’m still livid about, so where is the phoniness?

 

[Elixuh]

How is it phony; it was a pathetic and weak act that needs calling out and something I’m still livid about, so where is the phoniness?

I think the fact you’ve raised it for the one billionth time gets across the point that this has really upset you.

I don’t think you need to keep raising it and asking why everyone else isn’t as upset as you. We have all noted your upset and distress.

 

[M Malice]

I think the fact you’ve raised it for the one billionth time gets across the point that this has really upset you.

I don’t think you need to keep raising it and asking why everyone else isn’t as upset as you. We have all noted your upset and distress.

I have to tell you for the one trillionth time Elixuh, stop exaggerating, it is excruciatingly annoying.