Preview Round 2, 2020: St.Kilda v Western Bulldogs - Marvel Stadium, Sunday 14th June, 6:05PM AEST

[Enclosed_Animal]

Can't drop wilkie.

Why?

Wilkie had an absolutely fantastic first year. Exceeded all expectations. But he also had no competition for a spot in the team, and since rd 22 last year we have:

• Traded in Howard
• Have Robbo back from a heart condition
• Have Carlisle fit again
• Got another pre-season into Coff
• Got another pre season into Battle

Wilkie is a really solid citizen. There is no reason he cant play 22 games. But he is not a genuine KPD option and:

• When fit, Carlisle and Battle are both better in the air, and more suited playing the intercepting role
• When fit, Robbo is also a more proven choice as the 'tall' backline distributer, and we also have Coff who is extremely highly rated
• We already have Geary, Paton, JWebb and to some degree Long, Savage and even Clark for a spot as a small lockdown defender / HBF

I understand why people are very bullish on Wilkie, but cmon mate. He is hardly undroppable.

For me, he is fighting with Robbo, Battle & Coff for 2 spots in the team (maybe 3 depending on matchups and weather). No shame in potentially missing out in that mix

 

[ScrappyDo]

Why?

Wilkie had an absolutely fantastic first year. Exceeded all expectations. But he also had no competition for a spot in the team, and since rd 22 last year we have:

• Traded in Howard
• Have Robbo back from a heart condition
• Have Carlisle fit again
• Got another pre-season into Coff
• Got another pre season into Battle

Wilkie is a really solid citizen. There is no reason he cant play 22 games. But he is not a genuine KPD option and:

• When fit, Carlisle and Battle are both better in the air, and more suited playing the intercepting role
• When fit, Robbo is also a more proven choice as the 'tall' backline distributer, and we also have Coff who is extremely highly rated
• We already have Geary, Paton, JWebb and to some degree Long, Savage and even Clark for a spot as a small lockdown defender / HBF

I understand why people are very bullish on Wilkie, but cmon mate. He is hardly undroppable.

For me, he is fighting with Robbo, Battle & Coff for 2 spots in the team (maybe 3 depending on matchups and weather). No shame in potentially missing out in that mix

But Robbo has been out for 2 years and was rusty AF, while Coff has never cemented a spot despite a few handy games last year.
You'd be pretty harsh to drop Wilkie for any of those mentioned. He hasn't missed a beat since arriving.

 

[Enclosed_Animal]

But Robbo has been out for 2 years and was rusty AF, while Coff has never cemented a spot despite a few handy games last year.
You'd be pretty harsh to drop Wilkie for any of those mentioned. He hasn't missed a beat since arriving.

Don't disagree at all mate. Based on RD 1, I understand why Wilkie would be considered ahead of Robbo and Coff for a spot.

Simply saying he is not undropabble (as some are arguing above). IMO his position is contingent on matchups and the fitness / form of others (same as most of the backline actually).

Personally, the backline I would be going with for rd 2 would be:

JWebb, Howard, Paton
Long, Carlisle, Battle

Raffle the spot on the bench (rotating through) between Geary, Wilkie, Coff & Robbo. Would take Coff myself (big picture focus), but understand why people want Wilkie.

Wont happen of course. Just saying that is what I want to see, as I believe it is a better mix of ball users and intercepting ability. But what would I know? I am the guy that wanted White picked over Savage & McKenzie for 2 years straight because I think hitting targets in the back half is actually more important than being able to defend

 

[stavro#4]

If there was a game to come out and show we are up to the challenge. Then it is this one.

They have been talking a lot of smack about us. Especially old brucey

 

[Saintbloke]

How long has it been since Webster played seniors footy? Might struggle a bit.

 

[StCicatriz]

If there was a game to come out and show we are up to the challenge. Then it is this one.

They have been talking a lot of smack about us. Especially old brucey

so much this. plus the result of round 1 means we need to make a statement

 

[ScrappyDo]

Don't disagree at all mate. Based on RD 1, I understand why Wilkie would be considered ahead of Robbo and Coff for a spot.

Simply saying he is not undropabble (as some are arguing above). IMO his position is contingent on matchups and the fitness / form of others (same as most of our 22 act the backline actually).

Personally, the backline I would be going with for rd 2 would be:

JWebb, Howard, Paton
Long, Carlisle, Battle

Raffle the spot on the bench (rotating through) between Geary, Wilkie, Coff & Robbo. Would take Coff myself (big picture focus), but understand why people want Wilkie.

Wont happen of course. Just saying that is what I want to see, as I believe it is a better mix of ball users and intercepting ability. But what would I know. I am the guy that wanted White picked over Savage & McKenzie for 2 years straight because I think hitting targets in the back half is actually more important than defence

Ok valid point. I just think that for the moment whilst we're still a siht sandwich, we need to prize the blokes who hold their end up, of which Wilkie one.
When we're going better and the likes of Jimmy and Coff are banging the door down, then sure he's not good enough to be immune.
Hopefully there won't be an issue next year..

 

[plugger66]

Ok valid point. I just think that for the moment whilst we're still a siht sandwich, we need to prize the blokes who hold their end up, of which Wilkie one.
When we're going better and the likes of Jimmy and Coff are banging the door down, then sure he's not good enough to be immune.
Hopefully there won't be an issue next year..

This is where all clubs will struggle this year to select the right player to replace another. Training is only a fair guide but that is all they will have and maybe some 12 on 12 scratch matches against other sides if allowed. They are probably an even worse guide but at least all clubs will be in the same boat. Interstate clubs will actually be worse off. They will be playing each other all the time once and if the hubs finish. At least we can play up to 9 other sides even if it’s a crappy game.

 

[Premium]

Don't disagree at all mate. Based on RD 1, I understand why Wilkie would be considered ahead of Robbo and Coff for a spot.

Simply saying he is not undropabble (as some are arguing above). IMO his position is contingent on matchups and the fitness / form of others (same as most of the backline actually).

Personally, the backline I would be going with for rd 2 would be:

JWebb, Howard, Paton
Long, Carlisle, Battle

Raffle the spot on the bench (rotating through) between Geary, Wilkie, Coff & Robbo. Would take Coff myself (big picture focus), but understand why people want Wilkie.

Wont happen of course. Just saying that is what I want to see, as I believe it is a better mix of ball users and intercepting ability. But what would I know? I am the guy that wanted White picked over Savage & McKenzie for 2 years straight because I think hitting targets in the back half is actually more important than being able to defend

Feel the back line will be built around
Geary - Howard - Wilkie
xxxx - Carlisle - xxxx

The flanks will be filled by whoever can prove to perform week in week out - Long only has played one game there and still has to prove himself , Hunter Clark could be moved to play as a on baller and then we have Roberton , Webster , Savage , Coffield , Paton and Jones if needed.

Battle was left out of the team in the first round but hopefully he will be played in the forward line where he showed how good he was when he was drafted.
Let him play his natural game, if it doesn't work out we can throw him back if needed.

But having a fit Howard , Austin , Clavarino , Brown , Marsh , Roberton , Wilkie , Carlisle I feel Battle is more valuable as a forward.

 

[ScrappyDo]

This is where all clubs will struggle this year to select the right player to replace another. Training is only a fair guide but that is all they will have and maybe some 12 on 12 scratch matches against other sides if allowed. They are probably an even worse guide but at least all clubs will be in the same boat. Interstate clubs will actually be worse off. They will be playing each other all the time once and if the hubs finish. At least we can play up to 9 other sides even if it’s a crappy game.

Absolutely. At least all clubs will be similarly disadvantaged.
I just hope we find the nerve or reasoning to push on with developing out youth brigade.

Right now I'm running on faith, but to stick with the older players for 17 games would just be shooting ourselves in the foot.

 

[gringo2011]

Feel the back line will be built around
Geary - Howard - Wilkie
xxxx - Carlisle - xxxx

The flanks will be filled by whoever can prove to perform week in week out - Long only has played one game there and still has to prove himself , Hunter Clark could be moved to play as a on baller and then we have Roberton , Webster , Savage , Coffield , Paton and Jones if needed.

Battle was left out of the team in the first round but hopefully he will be played in the forward line where he showed how good he was when he was drafted.
Let him play his natural game, if it doesn't work out we can throw him back if needed.

But having a fit Howard , Austin , Clavarino , Brown , Marsh , Roberton , Wilkie , Carlisle I feel Battle is more valuable as a forward.

It looks like Long is a lock for one pocket.

 

[George]

It looks like Long is a lock for one pocket.

Would prefer Long on a wing. Need to develop Coffield off half back IMO.

Geary - Howard - Wilkie
Coffield - Carlisle - Roberton

 

[Enclosed_Animal]

I just think that for the moment whilst we're still a siht sandwich, we need to prize the blokes who hold their end up, of which Wilkie one.

Understand where you are coming from, but I have had an absolute gutfull of that approach.

For years we have picked players that are good defensively or good 1v1 (Brown, Delaney, McKenzie, Geary, Gilbert, Wright etc etc). We then also played a gamestyle requiring almost every player to help out the defence. Then when we occasionally beat teams with no functional forward structure or weapons like Gold Coast, Melbourne, Fremantle, Essendon, Carlton or the Bulldogs, supporters go woohoo, how good are we defensively. Our defence has been able to roll out a legion of turnover merchants for years, because when they get beaten our default is not to fix the fundamentally flawed structure, it is to blame the midfield.

White gets the arse and McKenzie gets a 3 year extension. Our VFL team plays a full season with a team structure that resembles an Auskick game, and we put that man in charge of organising our defence for 2020. We roll out round 1 playing Robbo as a KPD and no Battle. The ability to defend is not something we should be congratulating like it is still 20 years ago. At what point can will we finally admit this philosophy to defence is fundamentally flawed?

If we can intercept the ball in the air, and don't regularly turn the ball over coming out of the back 50, who cares what our back 6 is like defensively? Suddenly you don't have to play a gamestyle based around having 16 players helping out the defence just to stay in the game by defending well. Your defence actually becomes your source of attack. And all 18 players don't have to spend the entire game camped within 80 metres of the opposition goal.

Outside of Carlisle's (and maybe Battle's) intercepting ability and JWebb's kicking (none of which played round 1), we have 0 weapons in our back half we can turn into attacking chains. Longs pace is a start, but he might just return to getting 3 kicks a week if / when asked to prioritise his defensive work.

The All Australian contenders for years have been players like Rance, Laird, Andrews, Stewart, Hurn, McGovern, Whitfield, Houli, Williams, Shaw, Haynes

These players are all either elite ball users / kicks or elite interceptors. Enhancing their ability to intercept / launch scoring chains is the central focus of the defensive setup. For the best part of a decade our defensive structures have prioritised a setup to enhance our ability to defend. It is mind-numbingly outdated and ineffective

 

[plugger66]

Understand where you are coming from, but I have had an absolute gutfull of that approach.

For years we have picked players that are good defensively or good 1v1 (Brown, Delaney, McKenzie, Geary, Gilbert, Wright etc etc). We then also played a gamestyle requiring almost every player to help out the defence. Then when we occasionally beat teams with no functional forward structure or weapons like Gold Coast, Melbourne, Fremantle, Essendon, Carlton or the Bulldogs, and supporters go woohoo, how good are we defensively. Our defence has been able to roll out a legion of turnover merchants for years, because when they get beaten our default is not to fix the fundamentally flawed structure, it is to blame the midfield.

White gets the arse and McKenzie gets a 3 year extension. Our VFL team plays a full season with a team structure that resembles an Auskick game, and we put that man in charge of organising our defence for 2020. We roll out round 1 playing Robbo as a KPD and no Battle. At what point can we admit this philosophy to defence is fundamentally flawed?

If we can intercept the ball in the air, and don't turn the ball over coming out of the back 50, who cares what our back 6 is like defensively? Suddenly you don't have to play a gamestyle based around having 16 players helping out the defence just to stay in the game. Your defence suddenly becomes your best source of attack.

Outside of Carlisle's (and maybe Battle's) intercepting ability and JWebb's kicking (none of which played round 1), we have 0 weapons in our back half we can turn into attack. Longs pace is a start, but he might just return to getting 3 kicks a week if / when asked to prioritise his defensive work.

The All Australian contenders for years have been players like Rance, Laird, Andrews, Stewart, Hurn, McGovern, Whitfield, Houli, Williams, Shaw, Haynes

These players are all either elite ball users / kicks or elite interceptors. Their ability to intercept / launch scoring chains is the central focus of the defensive setup. For the best part of a decade our defensive structures have been primarily setup to enhance our ability to defend. It is mind-numbingly outdated and ineffective

I think you are completely overlooking the number one reason our backs have to be so defensive compared to some other sides and that’s simply because of the poor midfield. If you have a good midfield the ball gets into the backline slower so you can be more attacking. Same with our problems up forward except the opposite reason. Comes into to slower because of the poor midfield.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Understand where you are coming from, but I have had an absolute gutfull of that approach.

For years we have picked players that are good defensively or good 1v1 (Brown, Delaney, McKenzie, Geary, Gilbert, Wright etc etc). We then also played a gamestyle requiring almost every player to help out the defence. Then when we occasionally beat teams with no functional forward structure or weapons like Gold Coast, Melbourne, Fremantle, Essendon, Carlton or the Bulldogs, and supporters go woohoo, how good are we defensively. Our defence has been able to roll out a legion of turnover merchants for years, because when they get beaten our default is not to fix the fundamentally flawed structure, it is to blame the midfield.

White gets the arse and McKenzie gets a 3 year extension. Our VFL team plays a full season with a team structure that resembles an Auskick game, and we put that man in charge of organising our defence for 2020. We roll out round 1 playing Robbo as a KPD and no Battle. At what point can we admit this philosophy to defence is fundamentally flawed?

If we can intercept the ball in the air, and don't turn the ball over coming out of the back 50, who cares what our back 6 is like defensively? Suddenly you don't have to play a gamestyle based around having 16 players helping out the defence just to stay in the game. Your defence suddenly becomes your best source of attack.

Outside of Carlisle's (and maybe Battle's) intercepting ability and JWebb's kicking (none of which played round 1), we have 0 weapons in our back half we can turn into attack. Longs pace is a start, but he might just return to getting 3 kicks a week if / when asked to prioritise his defensive work.

The All Australian contenders for years have been players like Rance, Laird, Andrews, Stewart, Hurn, McGovern, Whitfield, Houli, Williams, Shaw, Haynes

These players are all either elite ball users / kicks or elite interceptors. Their ability to intercept / launch scoring chains is the central focus of the defensive setup. For the best part of a decade our defensive structures have been primarily setup to enhance our ability to defend. It is mind-numbingly outdated and ineffective

No I'm %100 on board with that.
I was also wanting White ahead of Dmac and others so you're preaching to the choir.

I guess l just rate Wilkie a bit higher because he does hit targets going forward and has excellent disposal and decision making (from what I've seen)

We've also got to remember that last season was still basically under Richo, and I'm not gonna draw judgments on a lot of these guys just yet.

Having some attacking weapons in defense is also reliant on some reliable types like Wilkie, and I'll throw Paton in as similar ilk so far.
I'm of the admittedly ignorant opinion that Doogle will give us some better drive than Brownie, Carlisle back will make a big difference, could be replaced by Battle or hopefully Bing. And Wilkie gets the defensive pivot roll that frees the others up.
Long/Jweb/Paton/Coff as smalls seems pretty shwifty to me too.

I think it's easier to take the other view of who you wouldn't or shouldn't have in.
Gears, Brown, Sav, Dmac about covers it IMO.
Hunter should play mid full time now, as should Jones.

And Robbo, it pains me to say, should be made to demand selection, and may even be fighting with Clav for a spot at some point in time.

Hard to do with no VFL but having to fight for selection is a sign of a healthy list and not something to shy away from as a club.

I think the guys l listed will be gone after this year anyway, and I'm inordinately happier to be complaining about Gears rather than Newnes..

 

[ScrappyDo]

I think you are completely overlooking the number one reason our backs have to be so defensive compared to some other sides and that’s simply because of the poor midfield. If you have a good midfield the ball gets into the backline slower so you can be more attacking. Same with our problems up forward except the opposite reason. Comes into to slower because of the poor midfield.

Its maybe a bit of both wouldn't you say?
6 years (or 7?) under a defensive defeatist coach, left little room for anything else to thrive.
Both you and EA are correct. Just different sides of the mirror.

 

[Rizz64]

 

[joydivision22]

For me my ideal best 22 for this season would be

Wilkie - Howard - Geary
Roberton - Carlisle - Long
Hill - Hannerbery - Billings
Gresham - Battle - Membrey
Lonie - King - Hind
Marshall - Ross - Dunstan
Jones - Coffield - Clark - Sinclair.

Its about pace and impact for this season imo, AFL in 2020 is a different beast to every other season

Love the Hind inclusion! A midfield of Hannebery Ross and Dunstan doesn’t rush you through the turnstiles though does it

 

[Palantine]

I dont go to training so i would have no idea if they think he can play as a mid

I saw half the preseason Sandy game against the Pies and Marsh was one of the best out there, playing forward. Think he could be a Kent replacement because he’s fast, and Battle take Ryder’s spot forward. He could rough things up with short spells in the middle, hard to match up on him.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Jade Buddha]

What I want:

FB: Paton - Howard - Wilkie
HB: Roberton - Carlisle - Long
C: Billings - Ross - Hill
HF: Gresham - Membrey (c) - Butler
FF: Battle - King - Lonie
R: Marshall - Steele - Dunstan
I: Hannebery - Jones - Coffield - Parker


What I expect:

FB: Geary (c) - Howard - Webster
HB: Roberton - Carlisle - Long
C: Billings - Ross - Hill
HF: Gresham - Membrey - Kent
FF: Ryder - King - Lonie
R: Marshall - Steele - Dunstan
I: Hannebery - Jones - Savage - Sinclair

Your expecting Ratts to drop Clark?

 

[mightymalaka]

Your expecting Ratts to drop Clark?

Certainly would hope not! He is going to be most important to us as to how he develops!
We need to get him into that midfield and fast! Think he has all the attributes needed to be an A grader!

Has that perfect mix of inside and outside mixed with hardness and creative ball use!
Ideally i would like to see Clark, Gresh when fit and Dunstan as our starting onballers in the centre square
Rotating with the likes of Steele, Hanneberry and Jones with Hill and Billings on the wings!

 

[plugger66]

Its maybe a bit of both wouldn't you say?
6 years (or 7?) under a defensive defeatist coach, left little room for anything else to thrive.
Both you and EA are correct. Just different sides of the mirror.

Didn’t seem to change round one this year. Coaches aren’t stupid. They see weaknesses and the coach for that weakness. I believe that’s why richo coached that way. Unlike you are others I think richo coached for the players we had. I hope you are right that it was richos ordinary coaching that was the reason for the way we played. Unfortunately i believe it’s the type of players more than the coaching.

 

[Saintbloke]

I think you are completely overlooking the number one reason our backs have to be so defensive compared to some other sides and that’s simply because of the poor midfield. If you have a good midfield the ball gets into the backline slower so you can be more attacking. Same with our problems up forward except the opposite reason. Comes into to slower because of the poor midfield.

I agree- I think our backline has been under too much pressure in so many games due the inability of the midfield to win contests and control the ball through the centre corridor.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Didn’t seem to change round one this year. Coaches aren’t stupid. They see weaknesses and the coach for that weakness. I believe that’s why richo coached that way. Unlike you are others I think richo coached for the players we had. I hope you are right that it was richos ordinary coaching that was the reason for the way we played. Unfortunately i believe it’s the type of players more than the coaching.

So it's Trout's fault then. We've come full circle...
I'm happy to put this one at Richo's feet because it suits his MO.
Give that man a Ferrari and he'd hitch it to a plow, then blame both the car and the plow coz the field ain't been dug.

You look at the players that were under his charge for their careers, and to a man every one on them has plateaued below what they showed when younger and several gone backwards.
Nick and Joey covered the cracks for a time.

I always think Ben Long sums it up pretty well.

Richo says to Trout, Find me the next Cyril.

Trout goes and gets an indigenous kid that kicked 6 in a VFL final, mostly cheapies, but he'd only ever played 2 games as a forward and up to then he was a HB.

Richo spends 3 years trying to shoehorn Longy into a position he never really gets, despite showing regular flashes of talent.

Richo gone, Ratts immediately sticks Longy at HB, and according to those at the club, is the find of the season.

Now had Richo remained, Longy would have eventually been delisted, and you'd be on here telling us that he was never good enough in the first place.

Seb, Sav, Newnes, Goat, White, Dunny, Billings, Stuv etc,,,
Eventually numbers tell the story.

The man was a useless
#%$£@$%! irrespective of whatever other influences may have been present.

 

[Stewart66]

Understand where you are coming from, but I have had an absolute gutfull of that approach.

For years we have picked players that are good defensively or good 1v1 (Brown, Delaney, McKenzie, Geary, Gilbert, Wright etc etc). We then also played a gamestyle requiring almost every player to help out the defence. Then when we occasionally beat teams with no functional forward structure or weapons like Gold Coast, Melbourne, Fremantle, Essendon, Carlton or the Bulldogs, supporters go woohoo, how good are we defensively. Our defence has been able to roll out a legion of turnover merchants for years, because when they get beaten our default is not to fix the fundamentally flawed structure, it is to blame the midfield.

White gets the arse and McKenzie gets a 3 year extension. Our VFL team plays a full season with a team structure that resembles an Auskick game, and we put that man in charge of organising our defence for 2020. We roll out round 1 playing Robbo as a KPD and no Battle. The ability to defend is not something we should be congratulating like it is still 20 years ago. At what point can will we finally admit this philosophy to defence is fundamentally flawed?

If we can intercept the ball in the air, and don't regularly turn the ball over coming out of the back 50, who cares what our back 6 is like defensively? Suddenly you don't have to play a gamestyle based around having 16 players helping out the defence just to stay in the game by defending well. Your defence suddenly becomes your source of attack. And all 18 players don't have to spend the entire game camped within 80 metres of the opposition goal.

Outside of Carlisle's (and maybe Battle's) intercepting ability and JWebb's kicking (none of which played round 1), we have 0 weapons in our back half we can turn into attacking chains. Longs pace is a start, but he might just return to getting 3 kicks a week if / when asked to prioritise his defensive work.

The All Australian contenders for years have been players like Rance, Laird, Andrews, Stewart, Hurn, McGovern, Whitfield, Houli, Williams, Shaw, Haynes

These players are all either elite ball users / kicks or elite interceptors. Enhancing their ability to intercept / launch scoring chains is the central focus of the defensive setup. For the best part of a decade our defensive structures have prioritised a setup to enhance our ability to defend. It is mind-numbingly outdated and ineffective

Particularly when hard statistical evidence says 70% of scores come from turnovers.