Autopsy Round 2, 2021: Hawthorn defeated by Richmond

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Off The Couch

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Never seen a board so offended by Tom Mitchell as Richmonds was yesterday. People don’t realise meters gained stat actually works in reverse if you kick/handball backwards?
Terrified he’s going to steal precious easy brownlow votes off Dusty, surely I’m not the only person who didn’t think dusty was in the best 3 players on the field yesterday.
Dusty was easily best on ground. He is clearly the best player in the league and I love watching him play. He’s a team player - always looking to bring others into the game, is never argumentative with the umps - just goes about his business and gets the job done with a minimum of fuss.

Toms a good player but his possessions yesterday were pretty ordinary and tbh I didn’t realise he had accumulated that many

I liked CJ, Frost, Howe, Day and Hardwick. And was happy with JOM and Shiels and thought Kosi tried hard all day

OBrien should be happy that Dunstall isn’t the forwards coach because he would of copped a spray. Wasn’t happy with him at all
 

Liverbird

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For those commentators, media flogs and others saying it was Richmond's superior pressure that led to turnovers, muse over these stats:

Rd 1 - Hawks made 80 turnovers, won 74 back

Rd 2 - Hawks made 80 turnovers, won 73 back

So is it Richmonds superior pressure or our poor skill level that is problem?

Let's see the forest from the tree peeps.
 

eldorado

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For those commentators, media flogs and others saying it was Richmond's superior pressure that led to turnovers, muse over these stats:

Rd 1 - Hawks made 80 turnovers, won 74 back

Rd 2 - Hawks made 80 turnovers, won 73 back

So is it Richmonds superior pressure or our poor skill level that is problem?

Let's see the forest from the tree peeps.
From looking at it, it was both.

The first quarter in particular, our handling was diabolical in the face of their pressure.

Even after we composed ourselves, our short kicking through the middle was very tentative in the face of their zoning and pressure. We saw chip kicks that ended in a contest, and often a turnover. As 4P has said many a time, we want to go fast through the middle, but the best team in the comp has excellent structures against that. Do you risk the turnover in the middle, or do the safe, wide, down the line stuff?

They were far more likely to deliver a 'bullet' pass to someone who had got a yard clear. This is very much a confidence thing. As others have said, it was very much the mental pressure and resultant lack of confidence that we put into other teams' minds during our dominant period.

The good news is, we also pressured them into error as often as not, won our share of the ball, more inside 50s, etc etc. The linking as a team, that 'symbiotic' thing where the whole team moves as one unit, like a hive,, they were VERY clearly superior.

We will get a hell of a lot out of the game though. I'm not a huge fan of the idea that every loss is a chance to improve and learn, but yesterday certainly seemed like an example of that maxim to me. Onward and upward, eh, what?
 

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hawkman

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Quite Interesting when you look at the way the votes must have been cast.
See Quote for breakdown.
Think Clarko loves CJ
Given that he said that he didn't think Martin was BOG you would think he has gone 5 Prestia 4 Martin

Hardwick has probably thought that Jiath has had a big part in stopping Richmond's attack while Clarkson has probably noticed his errors more so didnt give him any votes
 

grumbleguts

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I'm rapt the coaches didn't check the stats and give votes on them like Dan cherry (age) and dan batten (hun), are all dans stupid in victoria?

I'll be honest I didn't notice Prestia enough 4 a 7 vote total but hell I would have given him 10 before I gave Mitchell a 1. So I can live with it quite easily.

We need 2 stop looking at stats and look at impact or role in a certain game. To give an example Sam Mitchell played one of his worst statistically games ever in the freo gf.

He also played a role that arguably guaranteed us winning by getting smashed by Crowley, yet standing where sandilands hits 70 % of his tap outs... so Crowley would smack him even more. He never moved to get a cheap possession that day, he took hit, pinch, scratch after scratch from Crowley never said a word just did his role.

That is what football is about, not possessions.
ummm... no it's not.

If 44 players all just stood there getting pinched scratched and held and no one grabbed the ball, no one would score.
Football is about possessions, and getting them when it is in dispute and handing it on to someone such that the following possession and all subsequent possessions are not in dispute.
 

Simon Crawshay

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Dusty was easily best on ground. He is clearly the best player in the league and I love watching him play. He’s a team player - always looking to bring others into the game, is never argumentative with the umps - just goes about his business and gets the job done with a minimum of fuss.

Toms a good player but his possessions yesterday were pretty ordinary and tbh I didn’t realise he had accumulated that many

I liked CJ, Frost, Howe, Day and Hardwick. And was happy with JOM and Shiels and thought Kosi tried hard all day

OBrien should be happy that Dunstall isn’t the forwards coach because he would of copped a spray. Wasn’t happy with him at all
I do like the way Dusty goes about his footy.

Never argues with the umps, plays with flair and is not dirty or prone to taking cheap shots.
 

Nick the Pig

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Well done to Dan Howe. Played very well. I was calling for him to be omitted prior to team selection but he made a difference yesterday.

Impressed with both our second gamers. Brockman is a a super skilled one touch player. Has the game at his feet. I can't wait to see him and Chad combining together.

And Kosi's work rate and competitiveness is impressive. Second efforts are very good. He reminds me a bit of Jack Riewoldt but without the sad face.

Not many have mentioned Hartigan. He was brought over to play on the likes of Lynch and had the better of him today. Seems to have already settled well into the backline which often isn't easy in a new team and structure.. Also gave me my highlight of the day when Lynch did the shooting stars impersonation after Hartigan's nudge.

A lot of dumping on Mitchell on here. But take Mitchell out of our midfield yesterday and what we're we left with? Not much. Mitchell wasn't our problem. The rest of the midfield unit was underwhelming.
 

Milkshaker

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Given that he said that he didn't think Martin was BOG you would think he has gone 5 Prestia 4 Martin

Hardwick has probably thought that Jiath has had a big part in stopping Richmond's attack while Clarkson has probably noticed his errors more so didnt give him any votes
Hardwick gave CJ a vote for each error that resulted in a Richmond goal. Love his endeavour and his enormous promise for sure but that is the reality of CJ atm.

Imo Scrimshaw, if fit, takes his place back there. He has sure hands, is a great mark and is a beautiful user. He is not has flashy as CJ but will work better in a system orientated defence.

Agree with some other posters. Start playing him with the forward group. His tireless chasing, blocking, contesting, marking and 'chaos' will give the opposition nightmares. He is exactly what we lack up front. We used to have Cyril and Poppy making other teams look over their shoulder. Now we are vanilla and predictable.

Imo our defence can stand on its own (Day hurts and may change things). Up forward we desperately lack X-Factor. Kosi and Lewis have played 24 games between them. TOB is unreliable. Brockman needs games and Breust is still a star.
 
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rogiebear93

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Let’s face it. We need at least two quality Agrade mids, probably three.
A bull, another extractor and an outside star. Simple !!
This seems like a dramatic response if ever I'd heard one. How does shoehorning 2 or 3 A-Grade mids into our lineup help exactly? Most teams are lucky to have 3 A-Graders in the midfield let alone 3 on top of what they already have.

The major issue with our midfield mix is less the timber and more how they work together. I guess we could go ahead and have a midfield with as many stars as GWS, they're going great guns at the moment.
 
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darthmann

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This seems like a dramatic response if ever I'd heard one. How does shoehorning 2 or 3 A-Grade mids into our lineup help exactly? Most teams are lucky to have 3 A-Graders in the midfield let alone 3 on top of what they already have.

The major issue with our midfield mix is less the timber and more how they work together. I guess we could go ahead and have a midfield with as many stars as GWS, they're going great guns at the moment.
if you're strict on what an A-grade midfielder is, what teams actually have 3?

Dogs... and that's about it. Prestia and Bolton are very good but they're not top 20 mids in the comp. Cotchin used to be but not anymore. West Coast has an argument but their results have actually been better since before TK went across. Port and Brisbane have 1 or 2. Geelong same.
 

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rogiebear93

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if you're strict on what an A-grade midfielder is, what teams actually have 3?

Dogs... and that's about it. Prestia and Bolton are very good but they're not top 20 mids in the comp. Cotchin used to be but not anymore. West Coast has an argument but their results have actually been better since before TK went across. Port and Brisbane have 1 or 2. Geelong same.
I'd say Prestia is actually, but Prestia and Martin are their only truly elite mids. Cotchin once upon a time, can still roll it out every now and then but not every week.

Dogs, GWS and also West Coast would scrape in with Gaff, Kelly, Shuey and Yeo. Melbourne maybe if they can get all their mids firing at once but they have the same problem we do a lot of the time, too many midfielders playing the same role.

The teams who look great at the moment are those that have even distribution and consistency across the ground.
 

darthmann

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I'd say Prestia is actually, but Prestia and Martin are their only truly elite mids. Cotchin once upon a time, can still roll it out every now and then but not every week.

Dogs, GWS and also West Coast would scrape in with Gaff, Kelly, Shuey and Yeo. Melbourne maybe if they can get all their mids firing at once but they have the same problem we do a lot of the time, too many midfielders playing the same role.

The teams who look great at the moment are those that have even distribution and consistency across the ground.
forgot GWS, but they are THE case study in A-grade talent being just one piece in the puzzle
 

CHUBBSS

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What an annoying game, so many positives but so much frustration, we will learn a lot from that and you would hope not many dropped because that won't teach anything.

Forwards thought did a great job considering the tigers defence is first class and we made it hard with the transition but Brockman is amazing future star. Kozi will be alot better for that game and thought he worked hard considering the opposition.

Backline was first class and day was just warming up when he got hurt, the margin would of been a lot closer if he was still on the park. CJ is only just warming up but he does some unreal things just the mistakes to tidy up and he could be anything.

I think the coaches got the team balance wrong overall and will likely keep happening with us playing two rucks and leaving M.Lewis out, downie as well. We seem to favour defence again and if we aren't aiming to kick 100 we will loose more games then we should.

Our biggest problem against good teams is our midfield does not gel and that starts and ends at Mitchell, was one of the worst 37 disposal games I have ever seen and whats worst is he doesn't bring players into the game like he should. To me Mitchell isn't working for whatever reason and the midfield dynamic is worst off for it, this isn't helped that we don't have some stronger players on the outside but it just hurts every other mid, Worpel especially.

Great development game but I thought it could have been even better with a few things going our way.

I am expecting a win against the Cats... We are so close to putting 4qr together just need to build confidence in the team.
 

parsons nose

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What an annoying game, so many positives but so much frustration, we will learn a lot from that and you would hope not many dropped because that won't teach anything.

Forwards thought did a great job considering the tigers defence is first class and we made it hard with the transition but Brockman is amazing future star. Kozi will be alot better for that game and thought he worked hard considering the opposition.

Backline was first class and day was just warming up when he got hurt, the margin would of been a lot closer if he was still on the park. CJ is only just warming up but he does some unreal things just the mistakes to tidy up and he could be anything.

I think the coaches got the team balance wrong overall and will likely keep happening with us playing two rucks and leaving M.Lewis out, downie as well. We seem to favour defence again and if we aren't aiming to kick 100 we will loose more games then we should.

Our biggest problem against good teams is our midfield does not gel and that starts and ends at Mitchell, was one of the worst 37 disposal games I have ever seen and whats worst is he doesn't bring players into the game like he should. To me Mitchell isn't working for whatever reason and the midfield dynamic is worst off for it, this isn't helped that we don't have some stronger players on the outside but it just hurts every other mid, Worpel especially.

Great development game but I thought it could have been even better with a few things going our way.

I am expecting a win against the Cats... We are so close to putting 4qr together just need to build confidence in the team.
Mate, not one of better insights; you might want to reconsider this statement.
 

Mitchell Madness

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Did anyone notice Richmond's tactic at kick ins? They weren't dead in front (the rule that came in this year) but instead were allowed to man the mark in line with the point of the square
 

Gday1

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Did anyone notice Richmond's tactic at kick ins? They weren't dead in front (the rule that came in this year) but instead were allowed to man the mark in line with the point of the square
Yes stopped us from gaining that extra 15-20 metres from the kick in where there were a few occasions where they would play on and gain 20-30.
Poor setting up on our part
 

Mitchell Madness

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Yes stopped us from gaining that extra 15-20 metres from the kick in where there were a few occasions where they would play on and gain 20-30.
Poor setting up on our part
Agree we needed to set up better. My point is, I thought that the man on the mark had to be on the dot
 

Davo-27

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we fought hard, but Richmond won comfortably, we were never in with a chance to win, as soon as we got a good goal, they just burst through our slow and cumbersome midfield like it wasnt there and scored.

some good signs were a few of our guys looked like they were getting better and more comfortable at the level, Ceglar and TOB are finding their roles, but still not quite reliable yet.

some bad signs, Days ankle injury, our midfield once again getting pushed aside when it matters, some of our attack minded defenders forgetting to defend.
 

Milkshaker

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Nop... but enlighten me
Mitchell's game was not great. Our midfield does not gel imo. Not sure that is entirely Mitchell's fault. The biggest issue for mine was Mitchell handballed low nearly all game. It results in players bending low and pointing your arms down to collect the ball, whilst also slowing you down. Against a high pressure team like Richmond your hips are exposed and your arms easier to pin. It constantly puts teammates under pressure.

Handball higher and you can remain upright and free your arms more easily if need to dispose of the ball. We handballed low a lot last year as well. Not sure if its the pressure or we are just not that good at it?

Found this on AFL website (relates to a Cunnington game last year back in 2019). Some great handballs to advantage over the years in the footage. Includes Sammy Mitchell. My favourite is still Dew to Hodgey and handball to Sewell's advantage in the 2008 GF (below).





 
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CHUBBSS

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Mitchell's game was not great. Our midfield does not gel imo. Not sure that is entirely Mitchell's fault. The biggest issue for mine was Mitchell handballed low nearly all game. It results in players bending low and pointing your arms down to collect the ball, whilst also slowing you down. Against a high pressure team like Richmond your hips are exposed and your arms easier to pin. It constantly puts teammates under pressure.

Handball higher and you can remain upright and free your arms more easily if need to dispose of the ball. We handballed low a lot last year as well. Not sure if its the pressure or we are just not that good at it?

Found this on AFL website (relates to a Cunnington game last year back in 2019). Some great handballs to advantage over the years in the footage. Includes Sammy Mitchell. My favourite is still Dew to Hodgey and handball to Sewell's advantage in the 2008 GF (below).





I agree and my point on Mitchell was that he impacts so many of our chances in the centre

For whatever reason (my opinion) it is like the midfield team don’t work for each other and the catalyst of it is Mitchell - not that they don’t do the structural and defensive things that are asked but that they don’t work instinctively for each other... or want to? Maybe I am reading to much into things and worpel

If your an opposition midfield we would be one of the easiest to match up on currently, all you do is match our outside and wait for a turnover or one of your mids to beat Mitchell and repeat.

We have no variation or point of difference to compete with currently and Mitchell burning it or creating issues for the receiver only makes the problem greater.
 

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