Autopsy Round 2 vs Bravedogs. Things learnt

[Superstar swan]

Can I say for one that I think this is a nonsense. Making players run the ball out from their goal posts is great in the same way that ghouls marvel at the Indy 500 when the car stacks. The nature of AFL, unlike other sports, is that if you rush a behind the other side gets a point from it. They actually get a point. In many games sufficient of these things and you lose.

I reckon its great when teams have the wherewithal to run the ball out but if a guy is under pressure and he has limited options I simply regard the giving of a free kick - in circumstances where the attacking team has already gained a point - as a bridge too far.

I thought at the game that the Mills one was lineball - he just punched it through with only a little pressure around him - but when you are running back to your goal with the scores as close as what they were, I just think the rule stinks. Not the interpretation of it but the rule itself

surely the nature of the game should be taken into account, high stakes part of the game like the mills situation is surely under pressure

 

[Caj]

Or he might be looking at the fact his team has the equal highest frees conceded after 2 rounds?

And no before you say it, that stat doesn't confirm the conspiracy against your team either as you have the been awarded the second highest as well.

Anyway I'll move on As I suspect I've overstayed my welcome..

LOL look at this bandwagoner with 38 posts to his/her name, did you become a doggies fan after the grand final too?

 

[connolly]

Well said. If you want to bag the quality of umpiring then I have no problem with that, they make lots of mistakes every week for all clubs.

But to claim that some part-time umpires are getting bribed or otherwise directed by the AFL to favour certain teams is just bitter bullshit of the highest order. Does anyone genuinely believe that is actually happening, or is just a nice whine? No umpire or official has EVER come out and said something to the press about how they were told to give the Bulldogs or Hawks some free kicks? They are hardly being paid millions of dollars or threatened by the mafia to keep quiet, so why has nobody ever revealed this great conspiracy? Tin foil hat stuff.

The far more likely scenario is that they make mistakes, they can get influenced by home crowds, and when your team loses they are a handy scapegoat. Far easier than actually having to consider that your team might have some faults.

So you don't believe that large corporations running sports like football and horse racing influence outcomes by market share seeking biased adjudication? Its not a conspiracy but part of marketing strategy of an extremely expensive and lucrative entertainment product. Of course the Bulldogs were favoured by the umpires because that suited the marketing strategy of the AFL. Its how big business operates. And the AFL and VRC are very big business. Do you really believe that part time employees can resist strong pressures placed on them openly and within the organization? If magistrates and judges can be influenced behind the scenes by powerful vested interests then a bunch of part timers certainly can. But maybe you believe that judges are immune from pressure? If so keep hold of the dream. Take off the rose coloured glasses and look at the real world. This is not amateur "oh well played sir" football. Its big business behind it all. In regard to biased adjudication in racing (admittedly in NSW but i wont even mention cobalt in Victoria) a very successful horse trainer recently got a fine for presenting a horse with amphetamine. The AFL sat on a report by a retired Supreme Court judge for 10 YEARS regarding the amphetamine fuelled WC Eagles team from 2006. I could go on but I rest my case.

 

[sataris]

So you don't believe that large corporations running sports like football and horse racing influence outcomes by market share seeking biased adjudication? Its not a conspiracy but part of marketing strategy of an extremely expensive and lucrative entertainment product. Of course the Bulldogs were favoured by the umpires because that suited the marketing strategy of the AFL. Its how big business operates. And the AFL and VRC are very big business. Do you really believe that part time employees can resist strong pressures placed on them openly and within the organization? If magistrates and judges can be influenced behind the scenes by powerful vested interests then a bunch of part timers certainly can. But maybe you believe that judges are immune from pressure? If so keep hold of the dream. Take off the rose coloured glasses and look at the real world. This is not amateur "oh well played sir" football. Its big business behind it all. In regard to biased adjudication in racing (admittedly in NSW but i wont even mention cobalt in Victoria) a very successful horse trainer recently got a fine for presenting a horse with amphetamine. The AFL sat on a report by a retired Supreme Court judge for 10 YEARS regarding the amphetamine fuelled WC Eagles team from 2006. I could go on but I rest my case.

Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity.

We all know the AFL likes to orchestrate outcomes, there's no way anyone can deny that they operate solely to push some narrative or story.

* Essendon Doping
* Franklin to GWS
etc.

But what you're actually suggesting is that Nicholls / Razor / Stevic are actually making dodgy calls on purpose, which I don't think is true.

 

[connolly]

Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity.

We all know the AFL likes to orchestrate outcomes, there's no way anyone can deny that they operate solely to push some narrative or story.

* Essendon Doping
* Franklin to GWS
etc.

But what you're actually suggesting is that Nicholls / Razor / Stevic are actually making dodgy calls on purpose, which I don't think is true.

So you are suggesting they are making them collectively as a coincidence. Repeatedly in favour of one club and a certain outcome by human error and mistake? Rather than Razor Ray maybe Occams Razor will help here.

 

[sataris]

So you are suggesting they are making them collectively as a coincidence. Repeatedly in favour of one club and a certain outcome by human error and mistake? Rather than Razor Ray maybe Occams Razor will help here.

Occams razor would say that they're making mistakes rather than an orchestrated and systematic effort from head office, I mean if it was, it would have been leaked by someone by now..

It would be absolutely massive news, no way someone would just be sitting on that kind of memo/email.

 

[mcs095]

Yeah. It's turned ridiculously against defenders this year. I have watched most games so far and have seen some absolute shockers given against defenders for extremely minimal contact. In cases of mutual grappling before the ball arrives the defender gets done by the umpire 75% of the time. Our players should be under instruction to never hold an oppositions jumper (even for a millisecond) as they will pinged for it by the eagle eyed trio. Take not Allir, especially.

And, while we are talking about interpretation of rules...................whatever happened to prior opportunity? Doesn't seem to exist these days. You get more leeway from the umps if you pick the ball up and don't try to dispose of it after you are immediately tackled. It's usually a ball up. We do want to encourage players in the AFL to be first in to get the ball, don't we? Oh well. The interpretation will probably change next week.

I reckon prior opportunity will be completely removed by the tinkerers at AFL house in the next few years, as part of their ever ongoing drive to reduce congestion. It would be an utter disaster if it happens, but I reckon it will.

 

[sataris]

I reckon prior opportunity will be completely removed by the tinkerers at AFL house in the next few years, as part of their ever ongoing drive to reduce congestion. It would be an utter disaster if it happens, but I reckon it will.

Easiest way to reduce congestion is to make it a 14 a side a game instead of 18.

 

[mcs095]

What I do believe is that the standard of umpiring can be poor and it was very poor in that game. I also believe that the rules committee have messed with the rules so much that the grey areas of interpretation are killing certain aspects of the game. Holding the ball doesn't include dropping it cold any more and players are taking advantage. A handball is no longer what it was. The Dogs "elite hand skills" is throwing 50% of the time but they aren't pinged for it so good luck to them. I know Horse was being sarcastic but we should copy what they do if that is how it is going to be officiated.

Agree with all of this - in particular the comment amount 'grey areas of interpretation'. Look no further than the Mills situation to see where there is a perfect example of a rule that could easily be made objective, but instead has a significant subjective/interpretative part to it, in relation to making a judgement as to what pressure a player is under.

The constant tinkering of the rules committee is well on the way to ruining the game imo.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity.

We all know the AFL likes to orchestrate outcomes, there's no way anyone can deny that they operate solely to push some narrative or story.

* Essendon Doping
* Franklin to GWS
etc.

But what you're actually suggesting is that Nicholls / Razor / Stevic are actually making dodgy calls on purpose, which I don't think is true.

Melbourne didn't tank but here is a 500k fine anyways.

 

[connolly]

Agree with all of this - in particular the comment amount 'grey areas of interpretation'. Look no further than the Mills situation to see where there is a perfect example of a rule that could easily be made objective, but instead has a significant subjective/interpretative part to it, in relation to making a judgement as to what pressure a player is under.

The constant tinkering of the rules committee is well on the way to ruining the game imo.

I will just ask this question. In a GF this year if a Bulldogs player does exactly what Mills did and the Bulldogs are leading by a point against Adelaide and there is a minute to go will they award the free kick against them? Well would they?

 

[Tuco]

Umpires are human. Humans are a social beings, highly attuned to hierachical structures, and very suggestable.

How suggestable? If you tell yourself a lie often enough it can become so "true" that you can pass a polygraph. (Hello Hird and Lance Armstrong). Fact.

There doesn't need to be a conspiracy. In fact there is NO conspiracy. Referees and Umpires have been documented doing this so many times around the world it should FACTORED into their coaching.

There are so many cases of bias occuring around the world they actually should study the phenomenon and learn to spot where they're subconsciously making errors.

It happens because humans subconsciously serve their superiors and will tend to make decisions based upon what they believe is likely to please them. Whether it's a bunch of uni students becoming tyrannical nazis in a controlled prison experiment, or whether it's an Umpire overlooking the fact he has just paid 5 frees one way and missed three the other way.

Calling anyone suggesting the state of umpiring needs a review a conspiracy theorist is like Trump going on about Fake news to suppress debate.

 

[connolly]

Occams razor would say that they're making mistakes rather than an orchestrated and systematic effort from head office, I mean if it was, it would have been leaked by someone by now..

It would be absolutely massive news, no way someone would just be sitting on that kind of memo/email.

I am not suggesting they send an email. That's not how corporations exercising monopoly power exert market pressure. Well smart ones don't anyway. Occams razor would favour the corporate pressure theory because among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. Your explanation relies on an assumption of honest mistake or stupidity every time the decision is made. That would reasonably hold for the first one or two mistakes. But for the string of repeated errors which favour time and again one team? So many assumptions. Also if this is honest mistakes the mistakes should statistically even out over a period of time. They haven't, The hypothesis that AFL pressure produces the bias relies on one assumption - big corporations in positions of monopoly exert influence to favour market outcomes.

 

[mcs095]

I will just ask this question. In a GF this year if a Bulldogs player does exactly what Mills did and the Bulldogs are leading by a point against Adelaide and there is a minute to go will they award the free kick against them? Well would they?

On the evidence of what we've seen with the Fairypuppies, I think we both know the answer to that question

 

[Bulldogs Legend]

But that one-on-one where Boyd got rag-dolled was magnificent.

Should have been a free kick!

 

[MarkP]

I will just ask this question. In a GF this year if a Bulldogs player does exactly what Mills did and the Bulldogs are leading by a point against Adelaide and there is a minute to go will they award the free kick against them? Well would they?

In a grand final probably not. Mills probably gets away with it in a final as well right near the death.

In a normal round game with no attempt to disguise it then it would be a free.

I don't think it would have paid IF Mills had at least disguised it a little bit. It was just too bloody obvious is all. Fumble it a bit, stagger or trip but do something to give the ump an out. Just hitting it straight through like that was asking for it.

The one paid for holding or whatever was far far worse.

 

[Banyo Bloods]

Should have been a free kick!

Against Boyd for playing for a free rather than standing his ground unless he is genuinely soft.

 

[stefcep]

LOL look at this bandwagoner with 38 posts to his/her name, did you become a doggies fan after the grand final too?

Yeah you're right, only followed them since I was 9 years old in 1977 when Kelvin Templeton, Jeff Jennings and Bruce Reid at the Western Oval, Geelong Rd End, Footscray gave us a skills session. Look them up, especially that Templeton bloke. Could play a bit, you'll find.

Apparantly Reid's son plays for your team. There you go.

 

[Olian]

Yeah you're right, only followed them since I was 9 years old in 1977 when Kelvin Templeton, Jeff Jennings and Bruce Reid at the Western Oval, Geelong Rd End, Footscray for a skills session. Look them up, especially that Templeton bloke. Could play a bit, you'll find.

Did you google all of that?

 

[stefcep]

Did you google all of that?

Go on the Woof forum and you'll see me there for longer than I care to remember

Football did exist before the interwebs. And before Big Foody.

 

[brad cooper]

Go on the Woof forum and you'll see me there for longer than I care to remember

Football did exist before the interwebs. And before Big Foody.

The best thing about the western oval was that beer caravan behind the goals where the away cheer squad always stood purchased many vb cans from there over the years.

 

[Kapanis]

It's a weird thing footy. Just watched Buddy's highlights thingie on the swans site and the two guys that hit him lace out for two of his last quarter goals were K Jack and Cunningham. I didn't see the game but from what I've read these two were shitting it up big time. Weird. Granted Cunninghams non Bont attack was cringe worthy.

 

[The King!]

Well said. If you want to bag the quality of umpiring then I have no problem with that, they make lots of mistakes every week for all clubs.

But to claim that some part-time umpires are getting bribed or otherwise directed by the AFL to favour certain teams is just bitter bullshit of the highest order. Does anyone genuinely believe that is actually happening, or is just a nice whine? No umpire or official has EVER come out and said something to the press about how they were told to give the Bulldogs or Hawks some free kicks? They are hardly being paid millions of dollars or threatened by the mafia to keep quiet, so why has nobody ever revealed this great conspiracy? Tin foil hat stuff.

The far more likely scenario is that they make mistakes, they can get influenced by home crowds, and when your team loses they are a handy scapegoat. Far easier than actually having to consider that your team might have some faults.

After seeing the Essendon/AFL saga play out i have slightly less confidence there is not at least a small amount of dubious activity at afl house, but on the whole i know you are saying everything correct

 

[The King!]

It's a weird thing footy. Just watched Buddy's highlights thingie on the swans site and the two guys that hit him lace out for two of his last quarter goals were K Jack and Cunningham. I didn't see the game but from what I've read these two were shitting it up big time. Weird. Granted Cunninghams non Bont attack was cringe worthy.

Sometimes shits me the swans site, maybe i am being silly

But we lost, yet we seem to be posting heaps of highlights from this game, like here swans fans you didnt win, but watch buddy magic

 

[Syd]

It's a weird thing footy. Just watched Buddy's highlights thingie on the swans site and the two guys that hit him lace out for two of his last quarter goals were K Jack and Cunningham.....

Just imagine if we had a midfield that could kick....