Autopsy Round 21, 2019: St.Kilda v Fremantle

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austinnn

Veteran GOP
Nov 7, 2012
4,839
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France
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St Kilda
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Ross was early best on ground for us and I can't remember one mistake. If you were watching that and thinking we should trade him, you must have been watching another game. Bruce won us the game as well.

Seriously people are insane with wanting to trade so many. I'm pretty sure it's a punitive move for many. Pay them back for disappointing us in the past. GC got rid of guys like Lyons and Kade Kolodjasnij who were similar types to Acres and Dunstan and then let guys like May and Lynch go. It would be the same if we sold Ross, Acres, Dunstan. Bruce and Carlisle. We would be the youngest side with the worst list. If we sell off Marshal and King as well we don't even have any hope of improvement.

List management is about stockpiling and if you have to let players go you try to make sure the guy who is coming in behind them is equal or better already. Last year Melbourne sold off Jesse Hogan, this year Mc Donald and Weed are s**t without him to take the heat off them.

We are pretty competitive because we have this blanket of evenness across the board. What we need is for a few stars to come on or come in to the list, in the meantime we need to stay competitive to keep memberships ticking over. In 2013 there were only 7 current players, two of them are Armo and Roberton that probably don't play again and Stuv is another. Ross, Newnes and Webster were the others who had just been drafted and Geary who is probably in his twilight.

We need to hold course and just keep adding talent while holding the best 22 together and hopefully improving it as we go. Any player with actual trade value has less value to others than they do to us.

Hickey got us in a position where we will probably have to pay more than we got for him to replace him, let alone an actual upgrade.
You're right about Hickey, but if the AFL didn't keep messing with the ruck rules, he'd still be playing with us and Billy Longer would be a Saint no longer. Pretty annoying that we didn't see that coming.

Your claim about BF trading being a punitive reaction couldn't be closer to my reason for trading Ross and Bruce.

In fact I will admit that both have been very good players at times this year and it's just that reason that makes them the best candidates for trading, rather than more speculative players who wouldn't attract any rival clubs - the reality for Brucey is that he's far more valuable to a club like Collingwood then he currently is for us. For us, he is great in the odd game, a trier in a few and then there are the games where we has oars for hands or cannot kick straight to save himself. He's not consistently dependable in marking contests to be a number one forward. Luckily in the games he's great in, he looks like a star, a focus point. He would be missed by our players undoubtedly, but I think we can get where we want to go without him.

Ross likewise will attract many clubs with his stats and honours, and would be a fantastic addition to any club looking for an Andrew Thompson type, a very coachable senior player with a great character and leadership capabilities who is a useful cog in a midfield that already has a couple of stars - perfect for a team like Gold Coast or Essendon, his uncle's old team. For us, he hasn't been talented or consistent enough to be our midfield general and never will be.

The reality as you know is that we need to sacrifice to get the players we need, either as trades or draft picks unless we get lucky with late picks like we have with Wilkie and Marshall. We have players that no other club would pay for like Armo, Pierce or White and we have players who are more valuable to us than they are on the market like Stuv, Membrey or Carlisle, not to mention untradables like King, Clark or Marshall.

Both Ross and Bruce are at the age now where they would be an instant improvement to a team on the cusp of greatness and if these clubs will entertain a favourable trade that gets us the stars that we need to take our team into contention, well we just have to be brave and go for it IMO.
 

dct66

Premium Gold
Jun 19, 2014
1,287
2,673
AFL Club
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I would have thought the controlling umpire gets right of way. She saw high contact. He saw holding the ball. Surely she wins the argument. Why is he right and she wrong?
I don't have a problem with how she umpired that passage of play. She saw a high tackle, called advantage then the non-controlling umpire called a free to St Kilda almost immediately and she overruled him and brought it back for the original high tackle.
 

st_trav_ofWA

Premiership Player
Aug 17, 2015
4,289
11,909
AFL Club
St Kilda
He quite clearly got lost. I’m sure his injury made the game difficult for him but unless it made him physically unable to move in this instance, he just had an Acres moment.
he would be disapointed but lets not hang him out for it... most players have forgettable moments in their career heck in that game alone , Bruce tripping over his own feet. Lonie missing the easy handball to a player in a better position to kick the goal only to spray it ... mistakes happen, its human nature to have the occasional brain fart ... Blake knows he muffed it i doubt Ratten even had to mention it cause he knew Blake knew what he did wrong
 

tomsimpkin31

Premiership Player
Jun 15, 2011
4,552
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he would be disapointed but lets not hang him out for it... most players have forgettable moments in their career heck in that game alone , Bruce tripping over his own feet. Lonie missing the easy handball to a player in a better position to kick the goal only to spray it ... mistakes happen, its human nature to have the occasional brain fart ... Blake knows he muffed it i doubt Ratten even had to mention it cause he knew Blake knew what he did wrong
Certainly wasn’t hanging him for it if you look back at my original post. I made a simple post saying it showed his hesitancy in that moment, I didn’t criticise his match. Certainly triggered the Acres club though who were seemingly unable to acknowledge any flaws.
 

hayes

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 9, 2008
13,207
12,441
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Small sample size but over the past four weeks since Ratten took over we’ve had the second best forward press in the league. If he keeps that up we shouldn’t even bother interviewing anyone else.

Steven and Hannebery returning the way they did just epitomizes A grade talent. They showed how important it is and how little we have of it ATM if we’re being honest. A grade mids are worth their weight in gold. Clark looks like going that way but we need more.

Didn’t need it but thank you Steven for reminding everyone that he is our best player. There’s no excuse for decent compensation now, if Geelong don’t give us something decent then sorry Jack but retirement it is. Only weak clubs give up their best player without really good compensation, I can guarantee you if Collingwood or WC we’re giving away someone of his calibre they’d demand a kings ransom and would get it.

Sinclair, Acres, Newnes. By now I think we’ve seen enough to know they’re the guys that need to replaced it we’re going to move up the ladder.
 

karaoke

Norm Smith Medallist
Mar 26, 2013
6,587
8,114
AFL Club
St Kilda
Small sample size but over the past four weeks since Ratten took over we’ve had the second best forward press in the league. If he keeps that up we shouldn’t even bother interviewing anyone else.

Steven and Hannebery returning the way they did just epitomizes A grade talent. They showed how important it is and how little we have of it ATM if we’re being honest. A grade mids are worth their weight in gold. Clark looks like going that way but we need more.

Didn’t need it but thank you Steven for reminding everyone that he is our best player. There’s no excuse for decent compensation now, if Geelong don’t give us something decent then sorry Jack but retirement it is. Only weak clubs give up their best player without really good compensation, I can guarantee you if Collingwood or WC we’re giving away someone of his calibre they’d demand a kings ransom and would get it.

Sinclair, Acres, Newnes. By now I think we’ve seen enough to know they’re the guys that need to replaced it we’re going to move up the ladder.
Where'd you get that stat from?
 

plugger66

Brownlow Medallist
Jan 10, 2011
19,141
30,634
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Ormond AFC
Small sample size but over the past four weeks since Ratten took over we’ve had the second best forward press in the league. If he keeps that up we shouldn’t even bother interviewing anyone else.

Steven and Hannebery returning the way they did just epitomizes A grade talent. They showed how important it is and how little we have of it ATM if we’re being honest. A grade mids are worth their weight in gold. Clark looks like going that way but we need more.

Didn’t need it but thank you Steven for reminding everyone that he is our best player. There’s no excuse for decent compensation now, if Geelong don’t give us something decent then sorry Jack but retirement it is. Only weak clubs give up their best player without really good compensation, I can guarantee you if Collingwood or WC we’re giving away someone of his calibre they’d demand a kings ransom and would get it.

Sinclair, Acres, Newnes. By now I think we’ve seen enough to know they’re the guys that need to replaced it we’re going to move up the ladder.
If he wants to leave a deal will be done. No club is going force retirement on him.
 

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kernelT

Premiership Player
Aug 15, 2010
3,380
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You're right about Hickey, but if the AFL didn't keep messing with the ruck rules, he'd still be playing with us and Billy Longer would be a Saint no longer. Pretty annoying that we didn't see that coming.

Your claim about BF trading being a punitive reaction couldn't be closer to my reason for trading Ross and Bruce.

In fact I will admit that both have been very good players at times this year and it's just that reason that makes them the best candidates for trading, rather than more speculative players who wouldn't attract any rival clubs - the reality for Brucey is that he's far more valuable to a club like Collingwood then he currently is for us. For us, he is great in the odd game, a trier in a few and then there are the games where we has oars for hands or cannot kick straight to save himself. He's not consistently dependable in marking contests to be a number one forward. Luckily in the games he's great in, he looks like a star, a focus point. He would be missed by our players undoubtedly, but I think we can get where we want to go without him.

Ross likewise will attract many clubs with his stats and honours, and would be a fantastic addition to any club looking for an Andrew Thompson type, a very coachable senior player with a great character and leadership capabilities who is a useful cog in a midfield that already has a couple of stars - perfect for a team like Gold Coast or Essendon, his uncle's old team. For us, he hasn't been talented or consistent enough to be our midfield general and never will be.

The reality as you know is that we need to sacrifice to get the players we need, either as trades or draft picks unless we get lucky with late picks like we have with Wilkie and Marshall. We have players that no other club would pay for like Armo, Pierce or White and we have players who are more valuable to us than they are on the market like Stuv, Membrey or Carlisle, not to mention untradables like King, Clark or Marshall.

Both Ross and Bruce are at the age now where they would be an instant improvement to a team on the cusp of greatness and if these clubs will entertain a favourable trade that gets us the stars that we need to take our team into contention, well we just have to be brave and go for it IMO.
People get pretty salty when you mention Bruce and trade in the same sentence… but I agree, the consistency issue would make it tempting if a great offer came along. His "best" is great, but as our #1 forward and target he's kicked 1 goal or less, eleven times from 20 starts this year.

Ross has been our most consistent mid for a long time, so while's not a star we would want to be pretty confident that the player/pick we are trading for is going to be an upgrade… same goes for Dunstan.

All required players, but I would listen closely to offers… doubt we'd get the overs that we are hoping for.
 

plugger66

Brownlow Medallist
Jan 10, 2011
19,141
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AFL Club
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Ormond AFC
People get pretty salty when you mention Bruce and trade in the same sentence… but I agree, the consistency issue would make it tempting if a great offer came along. His "best" is great, but as our #1 forward and target he's kicked 1 goal or less, eleven times from 20 starts this year.

Ross has been our most consistent mid for a long time, so while's not a star we would want to be pretty confident that the player/pick we are trading for is going to be an upgrade… same goes for Dunstan.

All required players, but I would listen closely to offers… doubt we'd get the overs that we are hoping for.
Bruce is a vital forward. Works very hard and he isn’t close to a stay at home forward. I wouldn’t be trading him unless the deal really favours us but based on that every player is tradable.

Just for your interest jack Riewoldt has kicked 1 or less 5 times out of 8 this year.
 

st_trav_ofWA

Premiership Player
Aug 17, 2015
4,289
11,909
AFL Club
St Kilda
Certainly wasn’t hanging him for it if you look back at my original post. I made a simple post saying it showed his hesitancy in that moment, I didn’t criticise his match. Certainly triggered the Acres club though who were seemingly unable to acknowledge any flaws.
back the train up .. where was i addressing you in particular ? i was more adressing the so called Acres "space cadet" coments what you initially posted was fair i certainly agree that it was a howler by him but to say its a typical Acres trait is a bit rough ... im a pretty big Acres suporter but i certainly have no issues talking bout his flaws but when one mistake gets streched out into a thought that he is off with the fairys all the time i think you will find supporters of any player will defend their player against comments like that
 

st_trav_ofWA

Premiership Player
Aug 17, 2015
4,289
11,909
AFL Club
St Kilda
If he wants to leave a deal will be done. No club is going force retirement on him.
i do agree ... but at the same time Jack would know theres more to consider than just himself from the club point of view .. if he wants to go the club will help him but not at the expense of our club, we are not a charity and strengthening our opponents for no repayment isnt a high priority for us.. i think Jack would want us to be fairly compensated i dont think Geelong ripping us is high on his agenda to get to geelong (if in fact he wants to go). so while we will do whats best for him we have to be clear if its not in our interest then Jack can honour his contract or retire ..
WCE did it with Mitch Brown to us, GWS did it with Cam McCarthy to the Dockers... even if it means we dont get anything because we hold him to his contract we dont bend over and give a freebie to a competitor thats worse case.. i think it wont come to that but we need to make it clear we are not afraid to have it come to that
 

BigPowerForward

Goal of the Year contender
May 27, 2018
2,127
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People get pretty salty when you mention Bruce and trade in the same sentence… but I agree, the consistency issue would make it tempting if a great offer came along. His "best" is great, but as our #1 forward and target he's kicked 1 goal or less, eleven times from 20 starts this year.

Ross has been our most consistent mid for a long time, so while's not a star we would want to be pretty confident that the player/pick we are trading for is going to be an upgrade… same goes for Dunstan.

All required players, but I would listen closely to offers… doubt we'd get the overs that we are hoping for.
Should Josh Bruce be hitting the scoreboard more..... Absolutely.
And if we had someone in the wings that could play his role Kernel, I would certainly entertain a trade offer. We don't unfortunately, and to boot, he is currently sitting 4th in the AFL for contested marks. Players like that are very hard to come by. We got him cheap, he's only played 111 games, and he is entering the prime years for a key forward. IMO we would be taking a backwards step by trading him.

725641
 

plugger66

Brownlow Medallist
Jan 10, 2011
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i do agree ... but at the same time Jack would know theres more to consider than just himself from the club point of view .. if he wants to go the club will help him but not at the expense of our club, we are not a charity and strengthening our opponents for no repayment isnt a high priority for us.. i think Jack would want us to be fairly compensated i dont think Geelong ripping us is high on his agenda to get to geelong (if in fact he wants to go). so while we will do whats best for him we have to be clear if its not in our interest then Jack can honour his contract or retire ..
WCE did it with Mitch Brown to us, GWS did it with Cam McCarthy to the Dockers... even if it means we dont get anything because we hold him to his contract we dont bend over and give a freebie to a competitor thats worse case.. i think it wont come to that but we need to make it clear we are not afraid to have it come to that
It will happen if he wants to leave. We get no benefit at all forcing jack into retirement. The media would have a field day. The better option is he stays.
 

plugger66

Brownlow Medallist
Jan 10, 2011
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Should Josh Bruce be hitting the scoreboard more..... Absolutely.
And if we had someone in the wings that could play his role Kernel, I would certainly entertain a trade offer. We don't unfortunately, and to boot, he is currently sitting 4th in the AFL for contested marks. Players like that are very hard to come by. We got him cheap, he's only played 111 games, and he is entering the prime years for a key forward. IMO we would be taking a backwards step by trading him.

View attachment 725641
Contested marks is the second most overrated stat in footy. Not because they aren’t important. They certainly are but hardly anyone gets more than 2 a game on average. I’d rather a stat on missed contested marks either leading to a ball up or your side getting it. The contest is the vital stat.
 

st_trav_ofWA

Premiership Player
Aug 17, 2015
4,289
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It will happen if he wants to leave. We get no benefit at all forcing jack into retirement. The media would have a field day. The better option is he stays.
he is contracted ... the media can say what they like ... we are not giving Jack Steven to Geelong for a half chewwed chewy ... we will out of good faith entertain a trade.. we will go to the table with ideas on the trade but if Geelong dont play ball then we should not be at all afraid to hold Jack to his contract obligations and if he is totally against that then thats on him if he chooses to retire ...
i strongly believe if he does want to leave we will get a somewhat reasonable compensation for him as he is contracted
as for us getting nothing if he retires you are right but if he retires we dont strengthen our opponent for chump change .... we want whats best for jack for sure but we are not going to be giving him away for free cause we are nice guys ..
best case he stays with us , next best we get a fair trade , next best we force him to stay , worst case he retires , disaster worst case we give him to geelong for free ..
 
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plugger66

Brownlow Medallist
Jan 10, 2011
19,141
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he is contracted ... the media can say what they like ... we are not giving Jack Steven to Geelong for a half chewwed chewy ... we will out of good faith entertain a trade.. we will go to the table with ideas on the trade but if Geelong dont play ball then we should not be at all afraid to hold Jack to his contract obligations and if he is totally against that then thats on him if he chooses to retire ...
i strongly believe if he does want to leave we will get a somewhat reasonable compensation for him as he is contracted
I’m not saying give him away. I’m saying it will be done. Unfortunately we won’t get a true price. Just got to get the best we can or as I said we talk him into staying.
 

BigPowerForward

Goal of the Year contender
May 27, 2018
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Contested marks is the second most overrated stat in footy. Not because they aren’t important. They certainly are but hardly anyone gets more than 2 a game on average. I’d rather a stat on missed contested marks either leading to a ball up or your side getting it. The contest is the vital stat.
Agree. I think contested marks are important and a stat that shows how often a key forward in a contested marking situation brings the ball to ground is more important because that happens more regularly in a game.
 

st_trav_ofWA

Premiership Player
Aug 17, 2015
4,289
11,909
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I’m not saying give him away. I’m saying it will be done. Unfortunately we won’t get a true price. Just got to get the best we can or as I said we talk him into staying.
i agree it will be done but if Geelong are hard set on last offer is a third rounder then sorry Jack you either play out your contract or retire
 

plugger66

Brownlow Medallist
Jan 10, 2011
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i agree it will be done but if Geelong are hard set on last offer is a third rounder then sorry Jack you either play out your contract or retire
Well I’m not thinking that will happen because it helps no one especially Geelong who want him and us because of the shocking press we will get as you Geelong for being childish. It’s going to be around 25 or a player who would get around 25 like constable
 
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