Review Round 21, 2023 - Fremantle vs. Brisbane Lions

[PattyKwasagun]

I really feel like we are going to win our next six games of football and we all know what that means.

Fagan keeps selecting his "premiership-winning" pets all through 2024?

 

[bungalow_bill]

I haven't watched the replay yet but here are some thoughts.

We won a tough one on the road where the opposition kicked some goals out of their ar..s. Haven't seen that too often.

Thought we lost the mid field as Seong and Young were clearly better then anything we had. Didn't put a midfielder in my votes.

The defence stood up .Payne started poorly going a low percentage mark rather than the safe spoil and coughed up their first goal. He didn't put a foot wrong for the rest of the day. Hugh, similarly , late in the game, thought he was Royce Hart, and drifted across a pack deep in defence, went the mark. dropped it and the spillage cost a goal. Play the percentages. Andrews played well but Lester is starting to intrigue me. How has he played so poorly, compared to his recent form, for MOST of his career? Are the coaches to blame?

Remember we were having a Gardiner/Lester discussion awhile back!

At the start of the last quarter I remarked to Mrs DF that to win, the tall forwards had to kick some goals. Hippy, Gunston and Joe all goaled in the last quarter which dragged us across the line.

The rucks are a problem. Oscar is handy and Fort is a handy backup but neither are all that good. i favour playing both and running a fresh ruckman all the time, with Joe also going in there. This limits flexibility elsewhere obviously, but the rucks are our weakest spot on the list.

Grundy anyone?

I think that Lester is an example of an average player benefiting from playing in a great team and being surrounded by above average to elite players

 

[3KZ is Football]

I don't know about others, but I can say I believe in every word you say wholeheartedly.

I just want to say this PUBLICLY Nunez - I really appreciate your posting over the last couple of weeks. You have been positive and optimistic and delusional in equal measure and it has helped to hold things together. Same goes for you Gadzorks and Dalions, you have both been posting some strong ‘takes’ in the last few weeks. It is a stressful time if the year and people are passionate about our club, which often can ruffle feathers, but at the end of the day we all want the same thing for the club we love … a flag in 2023! At this time of the year, passion is a good thing, it comes with the territory.

 

[3KZ is Football]

I think that Lester is an example of an average player benefiting from playing in a great team and being surrounded by above average to elite players

Couldn’t disagree more. He is making an active and powerful contribution, in terms of his football and his leadership. He is in our BEST 22 and as martinson said yesterday, he is a ‘lock’ in a side that is going to go deep into September and just might win a FLAG. He’s earned his spot and deserves some respect.

You should stop fishing, because you aren’t going to get any bites. I see Nathan Barley is in the boat. May as well get your lines in boys.

 

[Gadzorks]

It's not that simple unfortunately.
Take someone like Muhammad Ali, in his toughest challenges he worked harder than anyone in the gym, when coming up against guys that he knew he would easily account for, he still worked hard but not to the same level. I would imagine it is the same in all sports. In an ideal world you would do the exact same amount of work regardless of who the opponent was but realistically, sometimes it's hard to get up to that level when you think something is going to be easy or you don't believe the outcome matters that much.

Yeah. Except ... The players and coaches all repeatedly say it's an even competition and they have to take every team seriously.

Platitudes and all.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Fagan keeps selecting his "premiership-winning" pets all through 2024?

When you win a flag as a coach you get COMPLETE AMNESTY for years to come. I’d love to see Fagan achieve that.

 

[p4p1]

Yeah. Except ... The players and coaches all repeatedly say it's an even competition and they have to take every team seriously.

Platitudes and all.

That is also what they tell themselves. But realistically, it just isn't what happens in my experience, much like anything in most people's private or working life. It's fine to say the Eagles are going to be as difficult as the Pies but it's almost impossible to make yourself believe it.

 

[p4p1]

Our only weakness that I believe can be exposed throughout a game right now is our centre clearance issues. If we can sort those out, by strategy or personnel, we will make and hopefully win the GF. If we don't then tbh we could still win it but the heart will be in the mouth a lot more.

 

[Gadzorks]

That is also what they tell themselves. But realistically, it just isn't what happens in my experience, much like anything in most people's private or working life. It's fine to say the Eagles are going to be as difficult as the Pies but it's almost impossible to make yourself believe it.

I wonder how the player week is structured.

How do they get vision of opponents? Is it generated by club employees and they are supposed to work their way through it in their own. It is something they do on their own in their own time?

Did the coaches think let's let the guys have a light week cause the next two months are intense?

There's so much we can never know, about players and the club.

 

[Squizz89]

Fagan keeps selecting his "premiership-winning" pets all through 2024?

If we win the flag this year, he can play himself all through 2024 for all I care.

 

[Big Sauce 21]

Especially given some of the disposal bloopers we saw on the weekend that cost us goals.

Having Prior go straight past him and into the team is not sitting well with me.

 

[martinson]

I wonder how the player week is structured.

How do they get vision of opponents? Is it generated by club employees and they are supposed to work their way through it in their own. It is something they do on their own in their own time?

Did the coaches think let's let the guys have a light week cause the next two months are intense?

There's so much we can never know, about players and the club.

I'm not so sure about what goes on today but in my time of being closer to clubs the top teams often didn't prepare as professionally against the weaker teams because they knew they'd beat them anyway.

It's a lot more random now. Nearly every team has a lot of good players and they can ambush you on their day if you're not fully up to it.

 

[golions]

As much as Dev is (understandably) not happy playing in the VFL and is desperate to play more games and more time in the AFL, he understands there is significant competition for a place in the 22 and also has clear communication from the club as to what he needs to improve on to get that regular spot locked in. He also is a smart lad and understands that right now there is a lifetime opportunity to play for a club that could win a flag this year and at least a couple of more years from now. (which is what 99% footballers ultimately play the game for.)

Just stuns me that a negative comment like that comes after a real gutsy win that all Lions supporters should be celebrating and appreciating.

Fair point about the gutsy win.

And fair point about Dev being told there are aspects of his game that he needs to work on in the reserves

But can anyone provide a rational explanation why a bloke like Dev is told to work on his game in the reserves - and when he is selected, barely given a run in the position that he has excelled in the juniors (inside mid)

while at the same time this has never happened to Rayner (never dropped to the reserves and given feedback about what he needs to work on) and instead Rayner is trialled in all sorts of roles including the backline to try and ‘find’ a position to keep him in the team?

How is that fair? How can one set of standards apply to one player and not the other?

 

[Viceregal]

When you win a flag as a coach you get COMPLETE AMNESTY for years to come. I’d love to see Fagan achieve that.

grin - I cannot for moment imagine that we will swear off selection night melts for 2+ years just because we won a flag in 2023 **





** admitedly there will be more credibility associated with maybe he knows what he is doing after all attached...

 

[M Malice]

Fagan keeps selecting his "premiership-winning" pets all through 2024?

When you win a flag as a coach you get COMPLETE AMNESTY for years to come. I’d love to see Fagan achieve that.

Personally I think if we aren't ruthless in the Grand Final and only win by 3-4 goals instead of 10+ Fages should be moved on and the playing list gutted and we go into full on rebuild mode.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Umpires seem to have an inbuilt dislike for Joe. If there is ever a technical one they are going to pull, Joe is almost invariably the victim.

It's inconceivable that they would pay like frees against their pin up boys and pets, of which there are far too many to list. I bet most here coud name a few though

To be fair, this is mostly on Joe after spending most of 2021 playing for free kicks and getting them. The umpires have caught on to his antics since so now he basically has to be hung, drawn and quartered to earn a free kick.

Sometimes you reap what you sow.

 

[martinson]

To be fair, this is mostly on Joe after spending most of 2021 playing for free kicks and getting them. The umpires have caught on to his antics since so now he basically has to be hung, drawn and quartered to earn a free kick.

Sometimes you reap what you sow.

Never seemed to apply to Hawkins or Reiwoldt.

 

[dlanod]

Never seemed to apply to Hawkins or Reiwoldt.

Hawkins even gets away with infringing, not just playing for others infringing on him.

 

[bungalow_bill]

Couldn’t disagree more. He is making an active and powerful contribution, in terms of his football and his leadership. He is in our BEST 22 and as martinson said yesterday, he is a ‘lock’ in a side that is going to go deep into September and just might win a FLAG. He’s earned his spot and deserves some respect.

You should stop fishing, because you aren’t going to get any bites. I see Nathan Barley is in the boat. May as well get your lines in boys.

I'm not fishing it's my honest opinion. IMO that is the reason why he is doing well now compared to earlier in his career.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Interview is here for those interested.

Listened to this interview after posting... Great chat. Really love when players are willing to give the listener honest insight beyond the cliches etc, and Lachie has done this before.

I recall in a post game TV interview once after a win over Port during covid he got talking about how at quarter time we needed to change how the wingers were positioned, and it completely changed the game. Then he goes "oops, probably shouldn't have said that" but I'm sure all the viewers and us as fans loved the insight.

Genuinely wish more coaches and players were willing to do this... Everyone gets found out eventually, but the sooner it happens the more time you have to adjust and improve. "Fail early and often" I think is the phrase used a lot in American corporate land.

On the other hand tho it's a bit concerning that his line of thought for the Gold Coast game was "oh they have an interim coach, they'll probably just show up and go through the motions" without really preparing as he might have for (say) a top 4 or 8 opponent. This mindset may have been common across the playing and coaching group for that game.

 

[Grasshopper17]

They won't be doing that again this season.

How do we know this though? How do we know they are going to look at Adelaide, see that they have a percentage of 117, which is not that far off ours to be honest, and that their worst performance against the top 4 teams this year is a 4 point loss to Melbourne (at the MCG), and knocked us off last time? How do we know they won't go "oh Adelaide are only 11th, and we're playing at home, we can just turn up and win"?

Right now it's hard to have faith in what happens during the week, because the same thing happened only a month earlier against Hawthorn and everyone said "They won't be doing that again this season".

Your line of thinking is rational and logical. But often enough those within our club have taken shortcuts and even admitted to that (which I respect to be fair).

 

[scoman]

I'm still concerned with our determination to run Clugga, Bailey and Zorko through the middle for big chunks of the game. I don't rate Clugga or Bailey's ability as an inside mid. They do their damage on the outside, and against a fired-up midfield unit, like we saw on the weekend, they don't have the size, tackling ability, or aggression to do anything about it. Zorko, of course, is unable to impact either, apart from the occasional short burst. Even then, it's not on the inside, its on the outside using his kicking skills.

I would rather see Dev added to that mix, covering for Dunkley and Neale when they rest. The third spot can then be rotated through Clugga, Bailey and Rayner. Its not perfect, but when Dunkley rests we have nobody in the middle who can tackle or provide a physical presence.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Never seemed to apply to Hawkins or Reiwoldt.

Yes but you have to remember they are part of the VFL and thus get fawned over by the football media and thus get preferential (subconscious, but preferential all the same) treatment from the umpires. Joe gave up these rights when he moved north, where he is "out of sight, out of mind" except when he played for and drew free kicks in prime time games in 2021.

Yes I know all of the above is completely illogical, irrational and unfair but that is what happens.

 

[T Rick]

Listened to this interview after posting... Great chat. Really love when players are willing to give the listener honest insight beyond the cliches etc, and Lachie has done this before.

I recall in a post game TV interview once after a win over Port during covid he got talking about how at quarter time we needed to change how the wingers were positioned, and it completely changed the game. Then he goes "oops, probably shouldn't have said that" but I'm sure all the viewers and us as fans loved the insight.

Genuinely wish more coaches and players were willing to do this... Everyone gets found out eventually, but the sooner it happens the more time you have to adjust and improve. "Fail early and often" I think is the phrase used a lot in American corporate land.

On the other hand tho it's a bit concerning that his line of thought for the Gold Coast game was "oh they have an interim coach, they'll probably just show up and go through the motions" without really preparing as he might have for (say) a top 4 or 8 opponent. This mindset may have been common across the playing and coaching group for that game.

Thanks for posting the link Grasshopper - a really good listen and so different to the usual interviews...very insightful.

 

[Grasshopper17]

I'm a bit surprised we haven't had more discussion here about how it was very much a game of two halves, and as such I think it is very difficult to assess our performance on Sunday as a whole.

Early on it looked like Freo were absolutely murdering us on the spread, basically from every single stoppage and contest. So we responded by playing the slowest, down-tempo footy I've seen us play all season. It was all the "control" stuff we brought out against Melbourne with none of the "chaos" stuff we sprinkled in with it so effectively that night.

We looked just like Geelong in 2019-21, where they had that one speed and basically couldn't change it. The pundits called it "defending with the footy" and it was quite effective, until it came completely unstuck in finals.

And for us on Sunday it was quite effective till about the midway point of the 2nd quarter when we led 3 goals to 2. Then Freo sorted themselves out and the writing was well and truly on the wall by that point.

The 2nd quarter was Exhibit A into why I've been so concerned about our playing style with 3 talls. We kicked 2 goals, both from marks, which meant that every other time we went inside 50 (11 times in total) the ball bounced straight back out, because we weren't able to exert any pressure when the ball hit the ground.

Thus our forward 50 conversion rate was in the toilet at half time. We'd gone inside 50 24 times in total, for just 8 scores. That's only 33% and you can't win games like that.

After half time tho it all flipped. We went inside 50 another 23 times but kicked 8-6. 14 scores from 23 entries is 61% which is excellent. Freo found it much harder to rebound, and also we got a lot more through the corridor and quick ball movement than we'd managed in the first half. So hats off to the coaches or players for whatever they changed at half time.

54 points in a half was also the most we scored with Gunston in the team since we played Gold Coast the first time (I'm intentionally not including the West Coast game).

So after spending the first half death riding Gunston, our forward line functioned pretty well thereafter, and all 3 of our tall forwards stood up when it mattered in crunch moments late in the game, which we haven't often seen, particularly away.

This means at the moment I'm quite partial to having the 3 talls stay in the team, but we need to see a repeat of that 2nd half effort from our forward line, for a full game.

The other thing is I thought we ran the game out as well as I'd seen for weeks. Yes, we only won the last quarter by 3 points, but it was 6 shots to 3, and 2 of their goals were quite difficult shots. We were first to the ball more often and we had numbers around the ball restricting Freo's ball moment and spread, which actually was a feature for much of the second half and a stark contrast from the first.

Expected score has us winning the last quarter by 10 accordingly (4 points down to 6 points up):



The bottom line is we certainly didn't look to be tiring or lacking in fitness, which made me wonder about whether the issues lie at an individual level rather than across the group. For example, Kiddy Coleman didn't play on Sunday. He is often cramping up late in games. Did his absence on Sunday mean that Prior was able to play his role better late in the game, meaning the rest of the team didn't have to do as much as they might if Coleman was playing?

I'm not saying this is definitely the case but simply making the suggestion, because in recent games we have looked exhausted late in games but I thought we looked good on Sunday. It would be interesting to look at our last quarter performances when Kiddy plays vs when he doesn't.

In any event I do still think we are a midfielder short, which to me presents a quandary for the match committee if we continue to play 3 tall forwards, because I think they all justified selection on Sunday. Freo scored pretty freely from centre bounces on Sunday and perhaps having Dev play that defensive midfield role would help in that regard. I just don't know who he replaces.