Review Round 21, 2023 - Fremantle vs. Brisbane Lions

[bungalow_bill]

Couldn’t disagree more. He is making an active and powerful contribution, in terms of his football and his leadership. He is in our BEST 22 and as martinson said yesterday, he is a ‘lock’ in a side that is going to go deep into September and just might win a FLAG. He’s earned his spot and deserves some respect.

You should stop fishing, because you aren’t going to get any bites. I see Nathan Barley is in the boat. May as well get your lines in boys.

I'm not fishing it's my honest opinion. IMO that is the reason why he is doing well now compared to earlier in his career.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Interview is here for those interested.

Listened to this interview after posting... Great chat. Really love when players are willing to give the listener honest insight beyond the cliches etc, and Lachie has done this before.

I recall in a post game TV interview once after a win over Port during covid he got talking about how at quarter time we needed to change how the wingers were positioned, and it completely changed the game. Then he goes "oops, probably shouldn't have said that" but I'm sure all the viewers and us as fans loved the insight.

Genuinely wish more coaches and players were willing to do this... Everyone gets found out eventually, but the sooner it happens the more time you have to adjust and improve. "Fail early and often" I think is the phrase used a lot in American corporate land.

On the other hand tho it's a bit concerning that his line of thought for the Gold Coast game was "oh they have an interim coach, they'll probably just show up and go through the motions" without really preparing as he might have for (say) a top 4 or 8 opponent. This mindset may have been common across the playing and coaching group for that game.

 

[Grasshopper17]

They won't be doing that again this season.

How do we know this though? How do we know they are going to look at Adelaide, see that they have a percentage of 117, which is not that far off ours to be honest, and that their worst performance against the top 4 teams this year is a 4 point loss to Melbourne (at the MCG), and knocked us off last time? How do we know they won't go "oh Adelaide are only 11th, and we're playing at home, we can just turn up and win"?

Right now it's hard to have faith in what happens during the week, because the same thing happened only a month earlier against Hawthorn and everyone said "They won't be doing that again this season".

Your line of thinking is rational and logical. But often enough those within our club have taken shortcuts and even admitted to that (which I respect to be fair).

 

[scoman]

I'm still concerned with our determination to run Clugga, Bailey and Zorko through the middle for big chunks of the game. I don't rate Clugga or Bailey's ability as an inside mid. They do their damage on the outside, and against a fired-up midfield unit, like we saw on the weekend, they don't have the size, tackling ability, or aggression to do anything about it. Zorko, of course, is unable to impact either, apart from the occasional short burst. Even then, it's not on the inside, its on the outside using his kicking skills.

I would rather see Dev added to that mix, covering for Dunkley and Neale when they rest. The third spot can then be rotated through Clugga, Bailey and Rayner. Its not perfect, but when Dunkley rests we have nobody in the middle who can tackle or provide a physical presence.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Never seemed to apply to Hawkins or Reiwoldt.

Yes but you have to remember they are part of the VFL and thus get fawned over by the football media and thus get preferential (subconscious, but preferential all the same) treatment from the umpires. Joe gave up these rights when he moved north, where he is "out of sight, out of mind" except when he played for and drew free kicks in prime time games in 2021.

Yes I know all of the above is completely illogical, irrational and unfair but that is what happens.

 

[T Rick]

Listened to this interview after posting... Great chat. Really love when players are willing to give the listener honest insight beyond the cliches etc, and Lachie has done this before.

I recall in a post game TV interview once after a win over Port during covid he got talking about how at quarter time we needed to change how the wingers were positioned, and it completely changed the game. Then he goes "oops, probably shouldn't have said that" but I'm sure all the viewers and us as fans loved the insight.

Genuinely wish more coaches and players were willing to do this... Everyone gets found out eventually, but the sooner it happens the more time you have to adjust and improve. "Fail early and often" I think is the phrase used a lot in American corporate land.

On the other hand tho it's a bit concerning that his line of thought for the Gold Coast game was "oh they have an interim coach, they'll probably just show up and go through the motions" without really preparing as he might have for (say) a top 4 or 8 opponent. This mindset may have been common across the playing and coaching group for that game.

Thanks for posting the link Grasshopper - a really good listen and so different to the usual interviews...very insightful.

 

[Grasshopper17]

I'm a bit surprised we haven't had more discussion here about how it was very much a game of two halves, and as such I think it is very difficult to assess our performance on Sunday as a whole.

Early on it looked like Freo were absolutely murdering us on the spread, basically from every single stoppage and contest. So we responded by playing the slowest, down-tempo footy I've seen us play all season. It was all the "control" stuff we brought out against Melbourne with none of the "chaos" stuff we sprinkled in with it so effectively that night.

We looked just like Geelong in 2019-21, where they had that one speed and basically couldn't change it. The pundits called it "defending with the footy" and it was quite effective, until it came completely unstuck in finals.

And for us on Sunday it was quite effective till about the midway point of the 2nd quarter when we led 3 goals to 2. Then Freo sorted themselves out and the writing was well and truly on the wall by that point.

The 2nd quarter was Exhibit A into why I've been so concerned about our playing style with 3 talls. We kicked 2 goals, both from marks, which meant that every other time we went inside 50 (11 times in total) the ball bounced straight back out, because we weren't able to exert any pressure when the ball hit the ground.

Thus our forward 50 conversion rate was in the toilet at half time. We'd gone inside 50 24 times in total, for just 8 scores. That's only 33% and you can't win games like that.

After half time tho it all flipped. We went inside 50 another 23 times but kicked 8-6. 14 scores from 23 entries is 61% which is excellent. Freo found it much harder to rebound, and also we got a lot more through the corridor and quick ball movement than we'd managed in the first half. So hats off to the coaches or players for whatever they changed at half time.

54 points in a half was also the most we scored with Gunston in the team since we played Gold Coast the first time (I'm intentionally not including the West Coast game).

So after spending the first half death riding Gunston, our forward line functioned pretty well thereafter, and all 3 of our tall forwards stood up when it mattered in crunch moments late in the game, which we haven't often seen, particularly away.

This means at the moment I'm quite partial to having the 3 talls stay in the team, but we need to see a repeat of that 2nd half effort from our forward line, for a full game.

The other thing is I thought we ran the game out as well as I'd seen for weeks. Yes, we only won the last quarter by 3 points, but it was 6 shots to 3, and 2 of their goals were quite difficult shots. We were first to the ball more often and we had numbers around the ball restricting Freo's ball moment and spread, which actually was a feature for much of the second half and a stark contrast from the first.

Expected score has us winning the last quarter by 10 accordingly (4 points down to 6 points up):



The bottom line is we certainly didn't look to be tiring or lacking in fitness, which made me wonder about whether the issues lie at an individual level rather than across the group. For example, Kiddy Coleman didn't play on Sunday. He is often cramping up late in games. Did his absence on Sunday mean that Prior was able to play his role better late in the game, meaning the rest of the team didn't have to do as much as they might if Coleman was playing?

I'm not saying this is definitely the case but simply making the suggestion, because in recent games we have looked exhausted late in games but I thought we looked good on Sunday. It would be interesting to look at our last quarter performances when Kiddy plays vs when he doesn't.

In any event I do still think we are a midfielder short, which to me presents a quandary for the match committee if we continue to play 3 tall forwards, because I think they all justified selection on Sunday. Freo scored pretty freely from centre bounces on Sunday and perhaps having Dev play that defensive midfield role would help in that regard. I just don't know who he replaces.

 

[Gadzorks]

How do we know this though? How do we know they are going to look at Adelaide, see that they have a percentage of 117, which is not that far off ours to be honest, and that their worst performance against the top 4 teams this year is a 4 point loss to Melbourne (at the MCG), and knocked us off last time? How do we know they won't go "oh Adelaide are only 11th, and we're playing at home, we can just turn up and win"?

Right now it's hard to have faith in what happens during the week, because the same thing happened only a month earlier against Hawthorn and everyone said "They won't be doing that again this season".

Your line of thinking is rational and logical. But often enough those within our club have taken shortcuts and even admitted to that (which I respect to be fair).

You're right, we have repeatedly done the same thing as have other to teams.

I like young players because they still have fire in their belly and every game is one to win.

Will strikes me as that competitive beast that will demand the same of teammates through his performances.

 

[dlanod]

Genuinely wish more coaches and players were willing to do this... Everyone gets found out eventually, but the sooner it happens the more time you have to adjust and improve. "Fail early and often" I think is the phrase used a lot in American corporate land.

I work at an American company and yes, "fail fast" is popular - less investment of time and/or money in what turns out to be a bad idea or strategy.

The "and often" isn't officially part of the lingo, it's added by cynics (myself included). No one really should be looking to fail often.

 

[Nathan Barley]

I'm a bit surprised we haven't had more discussion here about how it was very much a game of two halves, and as such I think it is very difficult to assess our performance on Sunday as a whole.

Early on it looked like Freo were absolutely murdering us on the spread, basically from every single stoppage and contest. So we responded by playing the slowest, down-tempo footy I've seen us play all season. It was all the "control" stuff we brought out against Melbourne with none of the "chaos" stuff we sprinkled in with it so effectively that night.

We looked just like Geelong in 2019-21, where they had that one speed and basically couldn't change it. The pundits called it "defending with the footy" and it was quite effective, until it came completely unstuck in finals.

And for us on Sunday it was quite effective till about the midway point of the 2nd quarter when we led 3 goals to 2. Then Freo sorted themselves out and the writing was well and truly on the wall by that point.

The 2nd quarter was Exhibit A into why I've been so concerned about our playing style with 3 talls. We kicked 2 goals, both from marks, which meant that every other time we went inside 50 (11 times in total) the ball bounced straight back out, because we weren't able to exert any pressure when the ball hit the ground.

Thus our forward 50 conversion rate was in the toilet at half time. We'd gone inside 50 24 times in total, for just 8 scores. That's only 33% and you can't win games like that.

After half time tho it all flipped. We went inside 50 another 23 times but kicked 8-6. 14 scores from 23 entries is 61% which is excellent. Freo found it much harder to rebound, and also we got a lot more through the corridor and quick ball movement than we'd managed in the first half. So hats off to the coaches or players for whatever they changed at half time.

54 points in a half was also the most we scored with Gunston in the team since we played Gold Coast the first time (I'm intentionally not including the West Coast game).

So after spending the first half death riding Gunston, our forward line functioned pretty well thereafter, and all 3 of our tall forwards stood up when it mattered in crunch moments late in the game, which we haven't often seen, particularly away.

This means at the moment I'm quite partial to having the 3 talls stay in the team, but we need to see a repeat of that 2nd half effort from our forward line, for a full game.

The other thing is I thought we ran the game out as well as I'd seen for weeks. Yes, we only won the last quarter by 3 points, but it was 6 shots to 3, and 2 of their goals were quite difficult shots. We were first to the ball more often and we had numbers around the ball restricting Freo's ball moment and spread, which actually was a feature for much of the second half and a stark contrast from the first.

Expected score has us winning the last quarter by 10 accordingly (4 points down to 6 points up):

View attachment 1767875

The bottom line is we certainly didn't look to be tiring or lacking in fitness, which made me wonder about whether the issues lie at an individual level rather than across the group. For example, Kiddy Coleman didn't play on Sunday. He is often cramping up late in games. Did his absence on Sunday mean that Prior was able to play his role better late in the game, meaning the rest of the team didn't have to do as much as they might if Coleman was playing?

I'm not saying this is definitely the case but simply making the suggestion, because in recent games we have looked exhausted late in games but I thought we looked good on Sunday. It would be interesting to look at our last quarter performances when Kiddy plays vs when he doesn't.

In any event I do still think we are a midfielder short, which to me presents a quandary for the match committee if we continue to play 3 tall forwards, because I think they all justified selection on Sunday. Freo scored pretty freely from centre bounces on Sunday and perhaps having Dev play that defensive midfield role would help in that regard. I just don't know who he replaces.

I think you're reading too much into it

Just like most games the pressure was more intense and both teams were running harder in the first half

Faster ball movement would've been more aggressive but left us vulnerable to turnover

It was like the triple switch that worked against Geelong. We seemingly have been working on moving the teams zone to transfer the footy with safe kicks

I think Gunstons first goal was a great example. Started in the opposite back pocket and we managed to transfer the ball pretty safely with 6 or so kicks to get a shot on goal

 

[Sanchez365]

I agree with Grasshopper17 that there was a clear strategy to hold the ball Geelong style, most likely to stop Freos pure pace on the ball. There was a moment I believe in the second which pretty clearly showed Gunstons man burning him for pace to create the overlap down the fat side, so even though I thought Gunners was good across the day, his weakness was still apparent.

Center bounces we all of a sudden look massively vulnerable again. While Fort was getting toweled up in those first 2 quarters, we looked in trouble, and as has been mentioned I also shuddered when Neale, Zorko and McCluggage were in there together. I thought most of that midfield changed in the second half when Fort started to get his hand to the ball first (he won hitouts in the second half 22-20), but Neale just wasn't his clean self to take advantage of it. Freo also got a few lucky tackles and non calls as their guys cheated forward from center bounce into open space, which helped them kick a few goals too.

We seemed to setup very defensively at the center though, Neale coming from the attacking side through to the back of the contest meant even if we won the clearance, it was to the wing and wide, allowing freo to flood back quickly. I don't like that our only strategy in center bounces atm is to send Neale to the foot of the ruckman and hope he can dish it out backwards to the defensive side of the contest. It has to be by direction, because you just don't see any other mids try and win the ball. Plus once neale is in that traffic, his man can move out to their defensive side very easily and he wise open, I just wish we were a bit more dynamic in there.

It was also clear that when the game was on the line (and top 2) we saw Fages go back to his most trusted midfield of Neale / Dunks / Zorko. There was no way that Robbo was getting on the ground. But giving the sub 5 minutes of a game seems insane to me.

 

[twhowler]

Agrre

I agree with Grasshopper17 that there was a clear strategy to hold the ball Geelong style, most likely to stop Freos pure pace on the ball. There was a moment I believe in the second which pretty clearly showed Gunstons man burning him for pace to create the overlap down the fat side, so even though I thought Gunners was good across the day, his weakness was still apparent.

Center bounces we all of a sudden look massively vulnerable again. While Fort was getting toweled up in those first 2 quarters, we looked in trouble, and as has been mentioned I also shuddered when Neale, Zorko and McCluggage were in there together. I thought most of that midfield changed in the second half when Fort started to get his hand to the ball first (he won hitouts in the second half 22-20), but Neale just wasn't his clean self to take advantage of it. Freo also got a few lucky tackles and non calls as their guys cheated forward from center bounce into open space, which helped them kick a few goals too.

We seemed to setup very defensively at the center though, Neale coming from the attacking side through to the back of the contest meant even if we won the clearance, it was to the wing and wide, allowing freo to flood back quickly. I don't like that our only strategy in center bounces atm is to send Neale to the foot of the ruckman and hope he can dish it out backwards to the defensive side of the contest. It has to be by direction, because you just don't see any other mids try and win the ball. Plus once neale is in that traffic, his man can move out to their defensive side very easily and he wise open, I just wish we were a bit more dynamic in there.

It was also clear that when the game was on the line (and top 2) we saw Fages go back to his most trusted midfield of Neale / Dunks / Zorko. There was no way that Robbo was getting on the ground. But giving the sub 5 minutes of a game seems insane to me.

Yeah i agree it was like it was a trust issue with dev. And the energy / pace / run he had when he finally came on, crazy not to use it earlier.

Zorko’s weapon now is his disposal when he has a few metres to size up his options. Should only be doing break glass centre clearances rest of the year

 

[Dalions]

Agrre

Yeah i agree it was like it was a trust issue with dev. And the energy / pace / run he had when he finally came on, crazy not to use it earlier.

Zorko’s weapon now is his disposal when he has a few metres to size up his options. Should only be doing break glass centre clearances rest of the year

If we continue to roll Zorko through the centre bounce for any more than 2-3 per game, we will continue to take away our 1 Wood and will get beaten up in there. Which means that we will be playing the majority of the game from the back half.

 

[Section 5]

It did not feel like it watching the game but we did win center clearances 12-11.
Neale and Dunkley both had an off 1st half and our 3rd best center clearance player Oscar was not playing.
Neale can expect another tag this week so let's see how he goes.
While Zorko is in the middle with Neale and Dunkley people can't expect him to be his old clearance type player.
He and McCluggage, Bailey and others will play more of a release handball receive player at all clearances.
When Neale and Dunkley are having a break, my preference is to have Rayner at center clearances at least.

 

[p4p1]

It did not feel like it watching the game but we did win center clearances 12-11.
Neale and Dunkley both had an off 1st half and our 3rd best center clearance player Oscar was not playing.
Neale can expect another tag this week so let's see how he goes.
While Zorko is in the middle with Neale and Dunkley people can't expect him to be his old clearance type player.
He and McCluggage, Bailey and others will play more of a release handball receive player at all clearances.
When Neale and Dunkley are having a break, my preference is to have Rayner at center clearances at least.

Could be down to the effectiveness of those clearances. The Dockers got a couple of quick reply goals out the centre, while we seemed to go elsewhere rather than straight down the middle with ours.

 

[Dalions]

Just had a watch of the mini match on the afl website and so many of Freo’s goals were long and wide and out and out assy goals. We didn’t play great, but we did well enough to make them have harder kicks for goal and they were just on and kicked ones they shouldn’t have at times.

 

[Section 5]

Just had a watch of the mini match on the afl website and so many of Freo’s goals were long and wide and out and out assy goals. We didn’t play great, but we did well enough to make them have harder kicks for goal and they were just on and kicked ones they shouldn’t have at times.

Plus, the two marks they took on the goal line that required video reply to confirm.
Both resulted in goals.
A bit of luck went their way, but the Dockers did play well.

 

[Thomasno]

Plus, the two marks they took on the goal line that required video reply to confirm.
Both resulted in goals.
A bit of luck went their way, but the Dockers did play well.

Not to mention the 4-5 goals they got from extremely soft high tackle calls or in the back calls, which were never reciprocated in similar scenarios down the other end

 

[3KZ is Football]

Never seemed to apply to Hawkins or Reiwoldt.

To be fair, players like Hawkins and Dangerfield and Selwood and Reiwoldt would TELL the umpire they had to give them a free kick and they would comply. Daniher’s issue is that he would appeal to their better natures.