Viceregal
Premium Platinum
I noticed at the game that the reasonably large number of Crows supporters near me were quite vocal in their disdain for Keays ...
Review Round 22, 2023 - Brisbane Lions vs. Adelaide
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Keays and Hinge both played good games for the Crows. It was so good to see the Lions boys get around Hinge when it looked like he had a nasty knee injury...something rarely seen although to give him his dues, Jeremy Cameron made a point of going to Ashcroft when he did his knee in the Cats game.
Heard it too and thought it pathetic. The bloke was shattered when he had to leave.
To my eye he is considerably overweight. Should be sent away and told come back 6-8kgs lighter and not, as per this season, way out of condition.
Just me I'm sure.
Mr. "so near but so far" has the innate ability but needs to be told some hard truths.
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FeastOrFamine
Team Captain
- Feb 19, 2022
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Definitely. I reckon the main inhibitors for Cam have been a combination of fitness related issues and a lack of clarity around his playing role. Mike whiting spoke about it on the podcast a few weeks back and basically said that Cam is either 3'rd forward or 3rd/4th midfielder. The way we're utilising him is doing him no favors. We know when he gets in the contest he's an absolute bull, but some of his tackling efforts on the weekend coming out of the center make me think that he'd be best suited as a mobile third tall.
Whilst the injury to Gunston is disappointing this is Cam's opportunity to take on the mantle as third tall and stamp himself in that position.
Definitely can't lose that much, I have seen Rayner with his shirt off at training and he is ripped, not quite a visible 6 pack but very close, I don't think he is considerably overweight.
I have posted it before but I think it is just a case of his genetic make up, Cam is never going to be an endurance player... he is very similar to Matho in that regard, I have seen them both absolutely give it their all at pre season training when it was at Yeronga, Cam also trained with Berry and Clugga during the off season.
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I’m surprised of the hostility between the two considering their mutual Star Wars obsession
McIvor
Premiership Player
Lester got in Andrew Staffords votes in The Age so good seeing Frog getting more recognition.
Reasonably fair. It was a hard game to give votes in because not many players were consistent across the 4 quarters.
I thought Ben was more impactful than the one vote. I wonder what the votes would've been if Adelaide had have won.
I saw him in the votes and couldn't remember anything much he did.
McIvor
Premiership Player
I know I shouldn’t but I can’t help but be continuously disappointed in the player Cam has been and is becoming. I mean every other number one pick in every draft after he was drafted, so he’s older than them all (except Cadman) are night and day better players, even Ashcroft in his first year has shown more than Cam in over six years and even guys like Hawks Jai Newcombe overlooked many times by all clubs has now shown way more than Cam ever has and then there are the likes of his draft class who we could’ve taken are just elite players such as LDU and Brayshaw.
Obviously I need to let this go but every week for years now I think when it will click and the longer it goes on the less likely it is becoming other than just accepting he’s a first 18 afl player and that’s it. Anyways
It's not his fault he was No 1 pick and unfortunately he has to carry the expectation around that goes with that.
Surely it must be apparent to us by now that we give him a role where he consistently plays over the course of a season and he develops the skills to play that role as well as he can. We've thrown him around far too much this year and sometimes he looks a bit confused at what he's meant to do.
There's still enough there to make me think he should become a valuable player.
- Sep 19, 2013
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The thing I remember the most about his draft year was the terrible beep test he recorded. It was almost as bad a performance as that girl from Somalia at the recent World University Games. It was discussed and dismissed by many at the time, but on reflection it was the alarm bell our recruiters should have taken notice of.
I love watching Cam with the ball in hand, and he is a decent AFL player, but I think it's becoming obvious he isn't ever going to be a top 50 player in the competition.
Edit: It was a 2km time trial that I was thinking about. His time was 7:57. Thats, um, not great.
Yes, I am a huge fan of Rayner's "potential" and he has shown it on a few occasions over his career... his lack of consistent performance over his career is the concern, he is now over 100 games so no excuses.
He is out of contract at the end of 2025(RFA) and will be 26 years of age by then, very few players improve significantly after that age. He will no doubt play out the rest of this season in seniors but from next year I think the coaching staff have to settle on 1 position for him and also be more demanding of him, his place in the AFL side should be right in the gun in 2024.
- May 5, 2013
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Should we be playing him like Browny.
Centre half forward or full forward.
There was an instance in the game where Hippy reeled around , kicked the ball right on top of a one on one contest close to our goal square.
He did it as soon as he spotted there was a one on one contest.
Beautiful kick by the way, but it was Huey in that position , imagine if Rayner was there, just saying he would of gobbled that up.
The kid can take a screamer, great mark, and can kick.
Wasted at the moment , always caught in no mans land.
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Best game I've watched him play, if anyone deserved a win in that team it was Keasy.
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Not sure where you got that impression but not accurate in my opinion. The average AFL player reaches his peak at 27-28 years old. For key position players its sometimes later than that and ruckmen often play their best footy in their early 30's.
Further to the recent Rayner discussion, Cam needs some strong words and I believe needs a club fitness person to be allocated to a regimented and individual off season training program that is measured week to week so when pre-season training starts he is ahead of previous years instead of trying to play catch up. His huge talent is blatently obvious to everyone but his fitness or "lack of" is just as obvious. Most athletes can increase their tank and I dont agree that it's just his make up rather than lack of preparation and commitment to the club. I desperately want to see him give us a consistent game each week because he would make a significant impact should he get his body more match hardened.
Agree on ruckman/KPFs... also I did say "improve significantly".
I will concede to your more reliable info on Cam's fitness, however IMO and I think it has been proven scientifically that genetic makeup does have an impact on how far you can get athletically/endurance wise.
I do think there is still time for Cam to be that elite 20 possession high impact consistent player we all hope he can be.
Yep been over it ad nauseam, but it was plain to see during the offseason last year he didn't come back in the best of nick. For a guy not blessed with outstanding aerobic ability this makes it even harder to catch up. Whatever he did to get fit during the covid offseason before he did his knee, is what we should be aiming for again. I believe if he can get back into that type of shape, there's no reason why he can't play decent minutes through the midfield.
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It's a hard gig for Rayner. Something I am realizing is that our forwards all seem to have weeks where they are fairly down, but we have so many options up there no one really gets to be "the guy". We certainly don't try to play through Rayner with any regularity like the cats do with Myers for example, and he's given very minimal time further up the field to work into the game and make an impact.
Expecting him to magically start getting 20 possessions a game as a half forward is just not going to happen, our style of play just doesn't allow it. Keep in mind we had 2 players get over 20 touches last week alone. Now not only last week Rayner had 19 touches and 12 marks, yet he was still potted on here for not doing enough.
I want him to take his game to the next level and I take note of people's assessment of his fitness levels being part of that which is on him. However like the development and growth of a few of our other players, I put that down to our coaches and the opportunities they are being given in games. Rayner this year has looked dangerous around congestion, he just hasn't been utilized in that position as much as say Zorko. Why the coaches have decided that is up for debate (fitness, skills, knowledge etc).
Expecting him to magically start getting 20 possessions a game as a half forward is just not going to happen, our style of play just doesn't allow it. Keep in mind we had 2 players get over 20 touches last week alone. Now not only last week Rayner had 19 touches and 12 marks, yet he was still potted on here for not doing enough.
I want him to take his game to the next level and I take note of people's assessment of his fitness levels being part of that which is on him. However like the development and growth of a few of our other players, I put that down to our coaches and the opportunities they are being given in games. Rayner this year has looked dangerous around congestion, he just hasn't been utilized in that position as much as say Zorko. Why the coaches have decided that is up for debate (fitness, skills, knowledge etc).
Great players are self motivated to get themselves fit. Others need significant extra input by the specialty fitness advisors . Some need to be dragged kicking and screaming. It seems Cam probably has the motivation based on his recovery from ACL but maybe not the willpower to apply it year on year so I agree with what others have said that we need to monitor his pre season work closely and ensure he's up to speed when training returns.
Gibbo_88
Premiership Player
Where and how Cam plays is good problem to have but it will be disappointing to still be talking about it next year.. His skill set and fitness still says he plays as the 3rd tall forward better than other positions. His 1st half of the season had some good performances but there's only been one decent game in the 2nd half from memory.
He can take a contested mark and has good timing in getting the ball at the highest, he just hasn't held them for some reason this year.
He's generally a good kick of the footy.
He's hard to tackle and generally plays in bursts as opposed to our fitter players.
The inclusion of Gunston and Ashcroft's first year as well as working on how we defend has changed the way Rayner and Neale are used in our midfield. Neale is up on clearances but slightly down on disposals and inside 50's. Only a couple of games over 30 disposals this year compared to last year having 11 games in the home and away season.
He can take a contested mark and has good timing in getting the ball at the highest, he just hasn't held them for some reason this year.
He's generally a good kick of the footy.
He's hard to tackle and generally plays in bursts as opposed to our fitter players.
The inclusion of Gunston and Ashcroft's first year as well as working on how we defend has changed the way Rayner and Neale are used in our midfield. Neale is up on clearances but slightly down on disposals and inside 50's. Only a couple of games over 30 disposals this year compared to last year having 11 games in the home and away season.
Cam has explosive lower body strength and we've seen on a few occasions this year he's learning how to use it . Just needs to get super fit ,find his designated role , and do it consistently.
Section 5
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Our small forwards and some mid/fwd players average game stats for this year.
Included some mid/fwd players also. Added Elliott from the Pies for some comparison.
Copy & past from footywire turned out a bit wacky so some color to help with the columns.
Cameron
McCarthy
Rayner
Bailey
Zorko
McCluggage
J Elliott from the Pies
Included some mid/fwd players also. Added Elliott from the Pies for some comparison.
Copy & past from footywire turned out a bit wacky so some color to help with the columns.
Cameron
| Year | Team | GM | K | H | D | M | G | B | T | HO | FF | FA | GA | I50 | CL | CG | R50 | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
2023 | 21 | 7.6 | 2.4 | 10.0 | 3.3 | 2.2 | 1.0 | 3.1 | 0 | 0.8 | 0.6 | 0.8 | 1.9 | 0.8 | 1.9 | 0.3 | |
2023 | 20 | 8.0 | 4.0 | 11.9 | 2.5 | 1.1 | 0.5 | 3.0 | 0 | 0.8 | 0.9 | 0.5 | 3.1 | 1.2 | 2.6 | 0.3 |
2023 | 21 | 8.6 | 5.9 | 14.5 | 4.3 | 0.8 | 0.6 | 2.2 | 0 | 0.6 | 0.8 | 0.7 | 2.9 | 1.5 | 2.6 | 0.8 |
2023 | 19 | 11.0 | 6.3 | 17.3 | 3.5 | 1.3 | 0.8 | 3.0 | 0 | 0.6 | 1.1 | 0.9 | 4.0 | 2.3 | 3.8 | 0.8 |
2023 | 15* | 12.8 | 5.8 | 18.6 | 5.3 | 0.4 | 0.5 | 3.6 | 0 | 0.9 | 0.9 | 0.9 | 4.1 | 2.3 | 2.9 | 1.6 |
2023 | 20 | 13.4 | 9.3 | 22.8 | 4.5 | 0.5 | 0.5 | 3.9 | 0 | 0.8 | 0.6 | 0.9 | 4.7 | 3.7 | 3.5 | 1.6 |
J Elliott from the Pies
2023 | 19 | 7.3 | 4.4 | 11.6 | 4.6 | 1.7 | 1.2 | 2.8 | 0 | 0.6 | 0.3 | 0.8 | 1.6 | 0.2 | 2.1 | 0.1 |
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