Review Round 23, 2024 - Collingwood vs. Brisbane Lions

[Mr Ripper]

We lost by 1 point to a team playing for their season, it is frustrating but come on, time for a rebuild? Pfft

P’raps people have had a gut full of seeing the same group of players making the same set of mistakes under the same circumstances on repeat. Maybe we do need to make a drastic list change.

 

[M Malice]

The skill level of AFL players is deplorable compared to other professional sports. It’s just not the Brisbane Lions missing shots in front, it’s the whole league. How players consistently handball to other players feet from 5 metres and how can so many players be drafted and not be able to kick off their non-preferred! I recon EPL players and professional golfers must watch AFL and laugh.

If AFL clubs told professional golfers how much time the players spent goal kicking practice in a week the golfers would reply - don’t you mean a day not a week?

It’s still a great game due to all its other attributes. Skill level just isn’t one of them.

Plenty of professional golfers completely miss the fairway, the green or a putt from a couple of meters.

Also plenty of professional football players miss penalty kicks or fluff absolute sitter goals or make howler mistakes in defence.

AFL is a very physical game with 360 degree pressure which requires elite endurance as well, any sport which requires physicality as well as elite fitness is going to require you to perform skills under extreme fatigue, very difficult task.

IMO we underrate how good an athlete most AFL players are.

I have never played Aussie Rules but I have been to a park and ran at near top pace and tried to bounce the ball and kick it on the run, that alone is a very difficult skill.

I did play soccer and Futsal for a combined 30 years though and I was not a very skilful player but I got by OK... albeit nowhere near an elite level of competition.

 

[Kernel Kurtz]

We see tackle numbers but never the % of missed tackles. I think we'd find this very illuminating as well.

Another fundamental to go with goal kicking I believe we neglect.

100% on that.
There is so much technique they could work on and should.
Front on tackling , behind from an angle run down tackle.
Some of it all intertwines : timing , alertness , proactiveness, covering angles.to name a few.

 

[Grasshopper17]

I've said this for many years, but I've never understand why training, particularly during the season, isn't conducted during the time of upcoming matches. I mean they're almost always training mid morning and rarely doing so between 2-5pm, 4:30-7:30pm or 7.10-10:30pm? Why not?

I'm not saying we aren't alone, but I suspect its a convenience thing for everyone associated with the club so they have typical business hours as partners and the like and perhaps knowing the AFLPA they have dictated players can't train after certain times. But how does that then prepare players for match day conditions or in the very least acclimatize the body to playing sport at a particular time when you never train for it? All week you're training in the mornings and then come weekend, you're still playing games well after 10pm!

It still feels like AFL clubs have a bloody long way to being fully professional becuase the other point you touched on, some of our goalkicking is so diabolical its not funny. I mean park footy players are just as stuffed when they line up for goals and aren't missing the sodas our guys and don't tell me its pressure when they also have a few thousand watching them and the stakes are also high for their teams and position within the league.

Yep, think it's very strange we don't train at similar times to when we play. Certainly from February onwards. Up to that point I'd prefer to see us train in the middle of the day and actually get some leverage out of our preseason conditions.

 

[Nathan Barley]

I thought they usually alternate. The captains run at least is in the afternoons

 

[braddsey]

The skill level of AFL players is deplorable compared to other professional sports. It’s just not the Brisbane Lions missing shots in front, it’s the whole league. How players consistently handball to other players feet from 5 metres and how can so many players be drafted and not be able to kick off their non-preferred! I recon EPL players and professional golfers must watch AFL and laugh.

If AFL clubs told professional golfers how much time the players spent goal kicking practice in a week the golfers would reply - don’t you mean a day not a week?

It’s still a great game due to all its other attributes. Skill level just isn’t one of them.

To add to what M Malice said, the athlete pool for AFL players is incredibly limited. 528,000 people participated in AFL in 2024, which includes kids, women, seniors (superleague). In contrast, soccer is estimated to have over 250million players worldwide (also including kids, women, seniors), from which a well-resourced EPL club can pick the absolute elite to stack their squads. There are more professional football clubs in Europe, than we have professional AFL footballers.

Not exactly comparing apples and apples...

 

[Nathan Barley]

I wonder if there's physical limitations to being more skilled. Footballers have be able to run 15 plus kms, tackle 100kg athletes and be able to kick, handball and catch consistently.

Are there any other sports where you have to do all 3?

 

[Grasshopper17]

I thought they usually alternate. The captains run at least is in the afternoons

Pretty sure it's usually 9 or 10am. I think when we travel and have it on opposition turf it may be in the arvo purely for logistical reasons.

 

[Nathan Barley]

A quick look at other AFL clubs open training sessions and they're all in the morning

 

[Grasshopper17]

A quick look at other AFL clubs open training sessions and they're all in the morning

Even better. An untapped opportunity.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Even better. An untapped opportunity.

Always the smart move to go against what everybody else is doing

 

[dlanod]

Always the smart move to go against what everybody else is doing

And yet everyone's complaining when we go against what everybody else is doing by kicking behinds instead of goals!

 

[M Malice]

I wonder if there's physical limitations to being more skilled. Footballers have be able to run 15 plus kms, tackle 100kg athletes and be able to kick, handball and catch consistently.

Are there any other sports where you have to do all 3?

Yes the combination of endurance and a confrontational physical game is pretty unique to AFL IMO, it is underestimated how much using your strength takes out of you.

Football/Soccer used to have some physicality but now it is virtually a non contact sport, same goes for Basketball, Rugby League/Union yes but they are not 360 degree games, teams are separated and then get set plays to get past the defensive line, nowhere near as long a game either.

I don't watch it but doesn't Gridiron run attacking and defensive squads on and off?

 

[p4p1]

soo frustrating

Need to work on 2 things urgently.

Sticking to tackles. Need bjj training or league training. How to deal with fends. Ways to use your body. Bailey is just not up to it unfort in a top team...hate to say it

Goal kicking. This should be on top of normal massages training erc.
I am amazed that they cant internally recognise it and adjust.

fages is a great head of development man. Not game day coach. No ways to stop any runs...and it has been like that for yrs. Why doesnt he give the umps a spray like fly did and didnt get fined for it?! Fages is just too nice n not ruthless enough. Fact

Surely wrestling would be better. Many BJJ guys have terrible stand up grappling.

 

[p4p1]

Yes the combination of endurance and a confrontational physical game is pretty unique to AFL IMO, it is underestimated how much using your strength takes out of you.

Football/Soccer used to have some physicality but now it is virtually a non contact sport, same goes for Basketball, Rugby League/Union yes but they are not 360 degree games, teams are separated and then get set plays to get past the defensive line, nowhere near as long a game either.

I don't watch it but doesn't Gridiron run attacking and defensive squads on and off?

There is no other sport like AFL. Gaelic, obviously the closest but I am doubtful that there is as many big collisions, and there is no tackling obviously. IMO AFL players are and have to be some of the most well rounded athletes in all of sports.
In a 3 hour Gridiron game there is about 15mins of actual play.

 

[buttermuffs]

Plenty of professional golfers completely miss the fairway, the green or a putt from a couple of meters.

Also plenty of professional football players miss penalty kicks or fluff absolute sitter goals or make howler mistakes in defence.

AFL is a very physical game with 360 degree pressure which requires elite endurance as well, any sport which requires physicality as well as elite fitness is going to require you to perform skills under extreme fatigue, very difficult task.

IMO we underrate how good an athlete most AFL players are.

I have never played Aussie Rules but I have been to a park and ran at near top pace and tried to bounce the ball and kick it on the run, that alone is a very difficult skill.

I did play soccer and Futsal for a combined 30 years though and I was not a very skilful player but I got by OK... albeit nowhere near an elite level of competition.

Kicking on the run was by far my worst ever skill. It was laughable at a jog but when I was at full tilt I may as well give up.

 

[p4p1]

I've said this for many years, but I've never understand why training, particularly during the season, isn't conducted during the time of upcoming matches. I mean they're almost always training mid morning and rarely doing so between 2-5pm, 4:30-7:30pm or 7.10-10:30pm? Why not?

I'm not saying we aren't alone, but I suspect its a convenience thing for everyone associated with the club so they have typical business hours as partners and the like and perhaps knowing the AFLPA they have dictated players can't train after certain times. But how does that then prepare players for match day conditions or in the very least acclimatize the body to playing sport at a particular time when you never train for it? All week you're training in the mornings and then come weekend, you're still playing games well after 10pm!

It still feels like AFL clubs have a bloody long way to being fully professional becuase the other point you touched on, some of our goalkicking is so diabolical its not funny. I mean park footy players are just as stuffed when they line up for goals and aren't missing the sodas our guys and don't tell me its pressure when they also have a few thousand watching them and the stakes are also high for their teams and position within the league.

I believe that sport science research has concluded that there is no advantage to training at the time you are competing. I seriously doubt that research has extended to a game as physical as footy though. I believe the same research has also concluded that there are far more important factors such as how well you slept, food you have eaten etc.

 

[p4p1]

Grasshopper unrelated but I am reading that time and space book you recommended. It is absolutely fantastic.

 

[Mr Ripper]

The skill level of AFL players is deplorable compared to other professional sports. It’s just not the Brisbane Lions missing shots in front, it’s the whole league. How players consistently handball to other players feet from 5 metres and how can so many players be drafted and not be able to kick off their non-preferred! I recon EPL players and professional golfers must watch AFL and laugh.

If AFL clubs told professional golfers how much time the players spent goal kicking practice in a week the golfers would reply - don’t you mean a day not a week?

It’s still a great game due to all its other attributes. Skill level just isn’t one of them.

Modern players are more skilled across the board than ever before (can't believe I just admitted that), but with the emphasis on pressure and negating "skills" (along with exhaustive running) in the modern game, only the most brilliant players are able to display it on any consistent basis. Umpires protecting ball players would help.

 

[Grasshopper17]

I believe that sport science research has concluded that there is no advantage to training at the time you are competing. I seriously doubt that research has extended to a game as physical as footy though. I believe the same research has also concluded that there are far more important factors such as how well you slept, food you have eaten etc.

Yeah the how well you have slept thing is absolutely huge I think. You play a night game, players and coaches report exactly the same: you finish up, stay on the ground for a bit, get into the rooms, do some media, press conferences, post-match meeting etc, warm down, you're probably starving, you don't get home till midnight or later, then your adrenaline is probably still pumping from the game, you've just eaten anyway so you probably couldn't sleep regardless.

All in all there's a good chance you're probably not ready for any sleep till 2 or even 3am. And that's with the glass of red Fages likes to have, which I'm not sure the players would be granted the luxury of too often.

Then you're expected back in the club first thing Monday morning.

I simply cannot believe this does not wreak havoc with the body clock. And that's before we even get into the vagaries of travel, let alone the travel to other time zones! (Which barring a bizarre set of results this weekend it looks like we will avoid for the rest of this year)

If nobody is currently factoring this in I believe it's a massive opportunity for a club to exploit. Why not us?

 

[Grasshopper17]

Grasshopper unrelated but I am reading that time and space book you recommended. It is absolutely fantastic.

I've said this before but I'd love to see an updated edition, discussing the Hardwick pressure and chaos model as well as McRae's approach to time management etc.

 

[BrainOfMorbius]

Grasshopper unrelated but I am reading that time and space book you recommended. It is absolutely fantastic.

Which book is that?

 

[M Malice]

Josh Dunkley

5

Josh Dunkley

Age

28

Ht

191cm

Wt

87kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.8

5star

K

10.4

4star

HB

11.3

5star

M

4.3

4star

T

5.8

5star

CL

3.2

5star

D

20.7

5star

K

7.0

3star

HB

13.7

5star

M

2.3

2star

T

5.3

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

14.2

4star

K

7.2

3star

HB

7.0

5star

M

4.8

5star

T

4.0

5star

CL

1.4

4star

on his Podcast with Adam Treloar

1

Adam Treloar

Age

32

Ht

185cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

28.2

5star

K

12.9

5star

HB

15.3

5star

M

3.6

4star

T

4.9

5star

CL

4.6

5star

D

30.3

5star

K

16.3

5star

HB

14.0

5star

M

2.0

2star

T

3.3

4star

CL

5.8

5star

D

18.0

5star

K

11.2

4star

HB

6.8

5star

M

4.2

4star

T

2.6

4star

CL

1.6

4star

today said that apart from the Grand Final this loss was the most down the boys have been during his time at the Lions.

Hopefully the hangover doesn't affect Saturday night.

 

[martinson]

Yeah the how well you have slept thing is absolutely huge I think. You play a night game, players and coaches report exactly the same: you finish up, stay on the ground for a bit, get into the rooms, do some media, press conferences, post-match meeting etc, warm down, you're probably starving, you don't get home till midnight or later, then your adrenaline is probably still pumping from the game, you've just eaten anyway so you probably couldn't sleep regardless.

All in all there's a good chance you're probably not ready for any sleep till 2 or even 3am. And that's with the glass of red Fages likes to have, which I'm not sure the players would be granted the luxury of too often.

Then you're expected back in the club first thing Monday morning.

I simply cannot believe this does not wreak havoc with the body clock. And that's before we even get into the vagaries of travel, let alone the travel to other time zones! (Which barring a bizarre set of results this weekend it looks like we will avoid for the rest of this year)

If nobody is currently factoring this in I believe it's a massive opportunity for a club to exploit. Why not us?

Melbourne teams have a big advantage when you look at the logistic requirements throughout the season.

It is what it is.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Grasshopper unrelated but I am reading that time and space book you recommended. It is absolutely fantastic.

Which book is that?

Time and Space, James Coventry.

Time and Space: Footy Tactics from Origins to AFL by James Coventry - Books on Google Play

Time and Space: Footy Tactics from Origins to AFL - Ebook written by James Coventry. Read this book using Google Play Books app on your PC, android, iOS devices. Download for offline reading, highlight, bookmark or take notes while you read Time and Space: Footy Tactics from Origins to AFL.

play.google.com

 

[Lion_LegacyXL]

Grasshopper unrelated but I am reading that time and space book you recommended. It is absolutely fantastic.