Review Round 23, 2024 - Collingwood vs. Brisbane Lions

[Mr Ripper]

We lost by 1 point to a team playing for their season, it is frustrating but come on, time for a rebuild? Pfft

P’raps people have had a gut full of seeing the same group of players making the same set of mistakes under the same circumstances on repeat. Maybe we do need to make a drastic list change.

 

[p4p1]

I've said this before but I'd love to see an updated edition, discussing the Hardwick pressure and chaos model as well as McRae's approach to time management etc.

Well they did talk about McRae time management on Browns podcast and Campbell as well as Browny did mention part of it if not most of it was not letting the ball out and locking it up with confidence the umps wouldn’t ping them. Now they don’t have that and all of a sudden they are losing close ones.

 

[Lion_LegacyXL]

Josh Dunkley on his Podcast with Adam Treloar today said that apart from the Grand Final this loss was the most down the boys have been during his time at the Lions.

Hopefully the hangover doesn't affect Saturday night.

I hope it stung

 

[Lions Flag 2020]

Plenty of professional golfers completely miss the fairway, the green or a putt from a couple of meters.

Also plenty of professional football players miss penalty kicks or fluff absolute sitter goals or make howler mistakes in defence.

AFL is a very physical game with 360 degree pressure which requires elite endurance as well, any sport which requires physicality as well as elite fitness is going to require you to perform skills under extreme fatigue, very difficult task.

IMO we underrate how good an athlete most AFL players are.

I have never played Aussie Rules but I have been to a park and ran at near top pace and tried to bounce the ball and kick it on the run, that alone is a very difficult skill.

I did play soccer and Futsal for a combined 30 years though and I was not a very skilful player but I got by OK... albeit nowhere near an elite level of competition.

I’m not questioning their athletic ability. It is very high. But I stand by my thoughts on skill level and lack of practice. I remember reading the All Black Grant Fox book. He would go to Eden Park EVERY DAY during his lunch bread in the 1980s (yes he had a full time job) and kick goals for an hour or two (understanding boss). He rarely missed in games and was kicking goals under enormous pressure with the weight of a rugby nation on his shoulders. He said he was that confident in his technique due to repeating the same thing hour after hour every day that he was always confident of kicking the goals. In the 1980s the balls were way worse than today and they played in mud!
Darryl Halligan was the same playing rugby league in the 1990s. He practiced his goal kicking EVERY DAY for hours on end and i think one year achieved around a 90% kicking accuracy. With a number from the sideline! He was literally picked in the Bulldogs rugby league team for his goal kicking (and won them plenty of games including finals). I don’t see AFL kicking for goal being any harder than goal kicking in rugby or rugby league. And the pressure Grant Fox was under is way more than any AFL player!
Matthew John’s told an 18 year old Cooper Cronk to take a rugby league ball every where he went. He would be seen everywhere with a ball passing it to himself (or others) and famously would take it to the movies! His passing and kicking skills were superb as a result.
Lachie Neale apparently works the hardest on his touch skills. He is one of the cleanest in the comp and has won two brownlows.
It is not rocket science.
I would love to know how many AFL forwards spend 1 to 2 hours per day EVERY DAY kicking goals. And spare me on the sports science stuff saying you can’t do it.

 

[Grasshopper17]

I’m not questioning their athletic ability. It is very high. But I stand by my thoughts on skill level and lack of practice. I remember reading the All Black Grant Fox book. He would go to Eden Park EVERY DAY during his lunch bread in the 1980s (yes he had a full time job) and kick goals for an hour or two (understanding boss). He rarely missed in games and was kicking goals under enormous pressure with the weight of a rugby nation on his shoulders. He said he was that confident in his technique due to repeating the same thing hour after hour every day that he was always confident of kicking the goals. In the 1980s the balls were way worse than today and they played in mud!
Darryl Halligan was the same playing rugby league in the 1990s. He practiced his goal kicking EVERY DAY for hours on end and i think one year achieved around a 90% kicking accuracy. With a number from the sideline! He was literally picked in the Bulldogs rugby league team for his goal kicking (and won them plenty of games including finals). I don’t see AFL kicking for goal being any harder than goal kicking in rugby or rugby league. And the pressure Grant Fox was under is way more than any AFL player!
Matthew John’s told an 18 year old Cooper Cronk to take a rugby league ball every where he went. He would be seen everywhere with a ball passing it to himself (or others) and famously would take it to the movies! His passing and kicking skills were superb as a result.
Lachie Neale apparently works the hardest on his touch skills. He is one of the cleanest in the comp and has won two brownlows.
It is not rocket science.
I would love to know how many AFL forwards spend 1 to 2 hours per day EVERY DAY kicking goals. And spare me on the sports science stuff saying you can’t do it.

I think rugby goal kicking should be somewhat easier, given the vagaries of the ball drop are removed.

Everything else tho I agree with.

 

[martinson]

I’m not questioning their athletic ability. It is very high. But I stand by my thoughts on skill level and lack of practice. I remember reading the All Black Grant Fox book. He would go to Eden Park EVERY DAY during his lunch bread in the 1980s (yes he had a full time job) and kick goals for an hour or two (understanding boss). He rarely missed in games and was kicking goals under enormous pressure with the weight of a rugby nation on his shoulders. He said he was that confident in his technique due to repeating the same thing hour after hour every day that he was always confident of kicking the goals. In the 1980s the balls were way worse than today and they played in mud!
Darryl Halligan was the same playing rugby league in the 1990s. He practiced his goal kicking EVERY DAY for hours on end and i think one year achieved around a 90% kicking accuracy. With a number from the sideline! He was literally picked in the Bulldogs rugby league team for his goal kicking (and won them plenty of games including finals). I don’t see AFL kicking for goal being any harder than goal kicking in rugby or rugby league. And the pressure Grant Fox was under is way more than any AFL player!
Matthew John’s told an 18 year old Cooper Cronk to take a rugby league ball every where he went. He would be seen everywhere with a ball passing it to himself (or others) and famously would take it to the movies! His passing and kicking skills were superb as a result.
Lachie Neale apparently works the hardest on his touch skills. He is one of the cleanest in the comp and has won two brownlows.
It is not rocket science.
I would love to know how many AFL forwards spend 1 to 2 hours per day EVERY DAY kicking goals. And spare me on the sports science stuff saying you can’t do it.

Jimi Hendrix was never seen without his guitar. He took it when he went to the toliet.

To be really great at something you need to be obsessive about it.

Likewise I don't buy the too tired, or they've got too much else to concentrate on to be an accurate kick at goal. You can see some players go weak at the knees every time they have to take a shot. I'm guessing because they haven't got the confidence in their routine . Sure there are angles and wind factors but for a professional there's no excuse for spraying it when you're 20m out.

I'm guessing most of them don't practice enough or get the right professional help to ensure they're practicing the right way. It's a crucial element of the game where you can really hurt the opposition by rarely missing the gettable ones.

 

[martinson]

I think rugby goal kicking should be somewhat easier, given the vagaries of the ball drop are removed.

Everything else tho I agree with.

No one's outlawed the place kick yet have they ?

 

[Grasshopper17]

No one's outlawed the place kick yet have they ?

Not as far as I know.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Blaming my brother for this loss, when Daniher was kicking for goal with a few mins left he said “it’s over”

I literally said to my friends at the game while Joe was lining up, "if we want to be a great team, there's no fuss here. He goes back, nails the goal, slams the door shut on Collingwood and their season. He misses, we're just a good, middling-to-ok team."

Those are the margins we're talking about here.

And honestly you would think our fair dinkum supporters would know better than to jinx us like that by now.

 

[martinson]

Not as far as I know.

Honestly ,I don't know why someone hasn't tried it . How often do you see the Rugby Pros. spray it ?

The other thing that worries me is that some of our guys seem to aim at the space. You need a small target. Aiming at the post would do . You're going to hit it once in 20 times and hopefully go inside it the other 19 with the right bias on the kick. Or aim at someone in the crowd.

You see some guys line up with no clue. They play golf. Look at how the pros line up their putts. It's methodical and leaving little room for error.

Anyone who thinks kicking for goal is hard should get the vision of Cam Smith when he won the British Open .He was holing them from 15- 30 feet one after the other across slopes, uphill/downhill, wind factor. You can't get a smaller target than a golf hole.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Honestly ,I don't know why someone hasn't tried it . How often do you see the Rugby Pros. spray it ?

The other thing that worries me is that some of our guys seem to aim at the space. You need a small target. Aiming at the post would do . You're going to hit it once in 20 times and hopefully go inside it the other 19 with the right bias on the kick. Or aim at someone in the crowd.

You see some guys line up with no clue. They play golf. Look at how the pros line up their putts. It's methodical and leaving little room for error.

Anyone who thinks kicking for goal is hard should get the vision of Cam Smith when he won the British Open .He was holing them from 15- 30 feet one after the other across slopes, uphill/downhill, wind factor. You can't get a smaller target than a golf hole.

I worked with Sean Clingeleffer for a few years in our day jobs. For those who don't know, Sean was Tasmanian wicketkeeper for many years at Sheffield Shield and one day level. Scored a century in a Shield Final that Tassie went on to win.

Anyway he always said the best piece of advice he ever got about batting was along the lines of "people talk about watching the ball, but they don't actually watch the ball. Most batters watch a broad area around the ball. They don't actually watch the ball. If you literally watch the ball you'll have a much better time of it".

It's a similar principle to that "small target" you mention. Ben Dixon often refers to it as "aim small, miss small".

It's uncanny how the best advice and coaching is often the simplest.

 

[BrainOfMorbius]

Time and Space, James Coventry.

Time and Space: Footy Tactics from Origins to AFL by James Coventry - Books on Google Play

Time and Space: Footy Tactics from Origins to AFL - Ebook written by James Coventry. Read this book using Google Play Books app on your PC, android, iOS devices. Download for offline reading, highlight, bookmark or take notes while you read Time and Space: Footy Tactics from Origins to AFL.

play.google.com

I got his Footballistics book a while back and enjoyed it, a good read

 

[moncon]

Jimi Hendrix was never seen without his guitar. He took it when he went to the toliet.

To be really great at something you need to be obsessive about it.

Likewise I don't buy the too tired, or they've got too much else to concentrate on to be an accurate kick at goal. You can see some players go weak at the knees every time they have to take a shot. I'm guessing because they haven't got the confidence in their routine . Sure there are angles and wind factors but for a professional there's no excuse for spraying it when you're 20m out.

I'm guessing most of them don't practice enough or get the right professional help to ensure they're practicing the right way. It's a crucial element of the game where you can really hurt the opposition by rarely missing the gettable ones.

Miles Davis practised for hours every day too.

I'm reading Robert Caro's magnificent study of Lyndon Johnson, whose "mantra" was that if you are in a competition you must do everything you possibly can to win, absolutely everything. If you do that, then you will win.

(NB: for him that included cheating, fraud, lying, stealing elections, and treating other people like slaves...awful person).

 

[M Malice]

Miles Davis practised for hours every day too.

I'm reading Robert Caro's magnificent study of Lyndon Johnson, whose "mantra" was that if you are in a competition you must do everything you possibly can to win, absolutely everything. If you do that, then you will win.

(NB: for him that included cheating, fraud, lying, stealing elections, and treating other people like slaves...awful person).

You mean like Essendon?

 

[Crimso]

Michael Jordan, who lived by the motto “You miss 100 percent of the shots you don’t take,” earned a record number of scoring titles along with MVPs and championship rings during his career. However, this approach also made him the league leader in missed shots for seven seasons, setting another NBA record

From google.

 

[p4p1]

Jimi Hendrix was never seen without his guitar. He took it when he went to the toliet.

To be really great at something you need to be obsessive about it.

Likewise I don't buy the too tired, or they've got too much else to concentrate on to be an accurate kick at goal. You can see some players go weak at the knees every time they have to take a shot. I'm guessing because they haven't got the confidence in their routine . Sure there are angles and wind factors but for a professional there's no excuse for spraying it when you're 20m out.

I'm guessing most of them don't practice enough or get the right professional help to ensure they're practicing the right way. It's a crucial element of the game where you can really hurt the opposition by rarely missing the gettable ones.

I remember when Aker was playing watching him after training staying on the field after everyone else had left and running along the boundary, picking up the ball having shots, running away from goals turning quickly and having a snap etc. So I do agree that someone who is obsessive like a Hendrix or SRV, or in football case Aker will help them be great.

Someone like Kiddy Coleman, and plenty of the indigenous players (among others) with silky skills are an example of this IMO especially in more recent times. Most kids for the past 20+ years have had TV, Videos and Games etc to keep them occupied. Where as kids who don't grow up with those luxuries (and it helps if you have a few brothers or a close knit extended family) have nothing else to do but kick the footy around. I don't believe that some of the games great aboriginal players were so skilled because of a genetic advantage but rather an experience growing up where footy was all that mattered, it is an escape for some terrible home lives (race/enthnicity not a factor here), and just the sheer amount of time kicking the footy.

 

[p4p1]

Honestly ,I don't know why someone hasn't tried it . How often do you see the Rugby Pros. spray it ?

The other thing that worries me is that some of our guys seem to aim at the space. You need a small target. Aiming at the post would do . You're going to hit it once in 20 times and hopefully go inside it the other 19 with the right bias on the kick. Or aim at someone in the crowd.

You see some guys line up with no clue. They play golf. Look at how the pros line up their putts. It's methodical and leaving little room for error.

Anyone who thinks kicking for goal is hard should get the vision of Cam Smith when he won the British Open .He was holing them from 15- 30 feet one after the other across slopes, uphill/downhill, wind factor. You can't get a smaller target than a golf hole.

I believe it was banned not long after Lynchy did it in 04, becoming the last person to ever score a goal with a place kick.

 

[Grasshopper17]

I believe it was banned not long after Lynchy did it in 04, becoming the last person to ever score a goal with a place kick.

What!? When? How do I not remember this!

 

[Grasshopper17]

Quick Google...

 

[BuntonRules]

Well they did talk about McRae time management on Browns podcast and Campbell as well as Browny did mention part of it if not most of it was not letting the ball out and locking it up with confidence the umps wouldn’t ping them. Now they don’t have that and all of a sudden they are losing close ones.

Yeah?

 

[Mr Ripper]

I believe it was banned not long after Lynchy did it in 04, becoming the last person to ever score a goal with a place kick.

 

[p4p1]

What!? When? How do I not remember this!

I can’t find anything on it but I’m sure it happened. I’m thinking 2004 or around then at least.

 

[p4p1]

Last player to use a place kick or drop kick in a AFL game.

Mathew Lloyd was a backwards dropkick Corrected for spelling and accuracy

www.bigfooty.com

This thread looks to have someone that remembers it. If my memory was right, it was definitely in the goal square and it was talked about at the time.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Joe probably got potted for this, but why didn’t Charlie double back and lead to basically anywhere he wanted to?

Don’t disagree but there was an acre of space if Joe kicked it straight away. Think most of the blame goes on him.

Charlie was leading to the goal square. All joe had to do was kick it for charlie to mark and run into an open goal square.We had a great view of this at the game. Charlie didnt have to double back. All joe had to do was kick it to charlie and not bounce the ball. Im not sure what charlie should have done differently. Everyone around was going off at Joe so yes he deserved to be potted for this. I would have dragged Joe to be honest and had a nice subtle chat but hey thats only my opinion.

Rubbish!

I think Joe intended to pass to Charlie but Charlie buggers it up by running straight towards the goalsquare

Unless Joe can execute an absolutely perfectly weighted pass over the Pies defender's head and hit Charlie at full stride, then Charlie is going to get gobbled up by the defender who is only a metre away from Charlie when Joe crosses the 50

Have a really good look at it.

Instead of running towards goal at full pace and running out of room, all Charlie has to do is double back towards the acre of space between full forward and CHF. Then Joe doesn't have to take that ill fated time buying bounce.

I think that is on Charlie rather than Joe. Charlie's first instinct is always to try to get over the back, even if that's not the best option

Lack of spatial awareness by Charlie IMO.

Maybe Charlie was drawing his opponent away from Joe allowing him to run closer to goals and have a shot?

I've mentioned this before but it's crap for Cornes to say "all Joe had to do was put it in front of Charlie to run into an open goal". Charlie was rapidly running out of real estate with a defender hot on his heels. Charlie could and should have turned back into the acres of space behind him and the defender would have been totally wrong footed. Joe made a skill error with the bounce but he doesn't need to bounce if Charlie just gives him a simple lead earlier in that piece

Absolutely correct.

I've been banging on about this twice before in the post mortems of this game.

So much vitriol and BS directed at Joe for being "selfish" in this incident when all he is attempting to do is to get Charlie to lead to space for either a kick and mark or a handball over the top for a "Joe the Goose"

The bounce was a skill error pure and simple but Charlie made things so much more difficult for Joe by running away from him rather than towards him. Or alternatively , running to somewhere else into the ample space that was available to him.

If "blame" is to be allocated, Charlie is more of the culprit than Joe here

Some great discussion here from everyone and I'm sorry I missed it before my earlier reply about it.

Having seen extended footage of this passage of play now, my take on it is that Joe probably needed to kick it out in front of Charlie as soon as he took possession.

But by the time he'd taken 3 or 4 steps that opportunity was basically gone, with Charlie too close to goal by then to take advantage of any margin for error involved with kicking the ball too far out in front of Charlie.

Charlie then needed to realise this and change the direction of his lead, out to the left pocket while still remaining as far away from Joe as possible. Two things defenders hate most: (a) when their forward is constantly on the move and (b) when they change direction.

This would have forced his defender into a decision: to either go with Charlie, go at Joe, or double back to the goal square. If we ignore the fact Joe fluffed the bounce for a moment, all 3 are terrible options for the defender.

If he follows Charlie, he leaves the entire passage between Joe and the goals open. Joe could even have gone for a mid-strength drop punt punch and skimmed it home. Mind you knowing the day we were having it probably would have sat up on the line or something stupid. Even so, Joe can probably still hit Charlie on the lead given Charlie's pace and the fact Charlie's opponent would have no way of getting in the way of a kick out in front of Charlie. That would be a tricky shot for Charlie, but he'd have 30 seconds, on his preferred side, from a similar position to where he nailed his shot against GWS from.

If he leaves Charlie and charges at Joe, Joe being Joe is a good chance of fluffing his lines. But leaving Charlie unmarked in the pocket means Joe can chip or handball to him, and then it's a race back to goal, or at worse the goal-front, that Charlie probably wins.

If he doubles back to the goal square, Joe can amble closer to goal, or hit Charlie in the pocket, but further from the boundary than if he was still being marked.

Either way it's a win-win-win for Charlie, and these multiple, multi-directional leads are something we rarely seem to see from our forwards.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Not sure why Fox don't publish these things wider than they do, but I though the footage of Dunkley mic'd up against Collingwood was exceptional. Unlike most players they mic even Zorko, there isn't a lot of insight, but Dunks was fanatastic and his encouragment, on-field coaching and even his interaction on the bench with a line coach up in the box about manning Daicos was brilliant.

It really made it apparent to me why he was elevated to the leadership group as quick as he was.

Have not seen this. Do you know where it's available?

 

[Grasshopper17]

Last player to use a place kick or drop kick in a AFL game.

Mathew Lloyd was a backwards dropkick Corrected for spelling and accuracy

www.bigfooty.com

This thread looks to have someone that remembers it. If my memory was right, it was definitely in the goal square and it was talked about at the time.

The only one anything like this I can recall was in the 2003 Semi Final against Adelaide. Lynchy got a free kick or a mark in the goal square, basically on the goal line.

This was back in the day where even if you marked it in the goal square you still got pulled around on a stupid angle, directly out from the centre of the goal line.

So Lynchy walked right up to the man on the mark, who's like half a metre from the goal line, looked over and asked the field umpire, "this is fine, right?", held the ball right down at his ankle and toed it through from about a metre out. The Adelaide guy threw his arm out at it but with no success.

I remember thinking that was so smart and why don't more players do that. This was before you had blokes running around and doing J-curves instead of normal drop punt set shots.

Maybe this is what people are thinking of?