Round 23 the Battle for the Wooden Spoon

(Log in to remove this ad.)

sagitox

All Australian
Joined
May 23, 2009
Posts
657
Likes
500
Location
Box Hill, Vic
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
BH Hawks, Philly Eagles, Rockies
#29
If we don't win the wooden spoon this year, this season will have been all for nothing! Finishing 17th or above is not an option.
 

G0ther00s

Club Legend
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Posts
2,138
Likes
2,773
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Miami Heat
#32
Adding pick 1 + Dusty makes more sense than grabbing Kelly. If we were to obtain Kelly would probably cost us the #1 pick.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

hcd199

Club Legend
Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Posts
2,018
Likes
1,113
Location
Hobart
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Waterford GAA, Glenorchy, Hob (BBL)
#39
When was the last time pick #1 played in a flag for the club that "won" them with the spoon? Tom Boyd wasn't at the club that drafted him ('16 flag), Hawthorn didn't get Luke Hodge through "winning" the spoon ('15 flag), neither did West Coast with Drew Banfield ('06 flag)... so Des Headland, '98 #1 pick and '02 premiership player, is the last example. Not exactly a promising precedent...

Thinking we're the exception to the cellar-dwelling sub-mediocrity that characterises bottom-finishing sides is folly. 17th is bad enough (clubs who've had success shortly after finishing 2nd-last - like Hawthorn and Collingwood - had two top 5 picks, so not exactly comparable). The amount of illogic required to think finishing with a slightly higher draft pick is of substantial value to us is staggering. Pretending failure is a positive is the kind of desperately delusional thinking that typifies supporters of perennial basket cases - let's not join them.
 

thumping

Club Legend
Joined
Oct 29, 2002
Posts
1,988
Likes
937
Location
Our Native Land.
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Shinboners,Rooboys,Kangas
#40
When was the last time pick #1 played in a flag for the club that "won" them with the spoon? Tom Boyd wasn't at the club that drafted him ('16 flag), Hawthorn didn't get Luke Hodge through "winning" the spoon ('15 flag), neither did West Coast with Drew Banfield ('06 flag)... so Des Headland, '98 #1 pick and '02 premiership player, is the last example. Not exactly a promising precedent...

Thinking we're the exception to the cellar-dwelling sub-mediocrity that characterises bottom-finishing sides is folly. 17th is bad enough (clubs who've had success shortly after finishing 2nd-last - like Hawthorn and Collingwood - had two top 5 picks, so not exactly comparable). The amount of illogic required to think finishing with a slightly higher draft pick is of substantial value to us is staggering. Pretending failure is a positive is the kind of desperately delusional thinking that typifies supporters of perennial basket cases - let's not join them.
Franklin, Roughead and Hodge all came from Tanking so if that's a model or path we follow it's good enough for me. If we don't get some top end talent into our side we will be in no mans land for years to come.
 

hcd199

Club Legend
Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Posts
2,018
Likes
1,113
Location
Hobart
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Waterford GAA, Glenorchy, Hob (BBL)
#43
Franklin, Roughead and Hodge all came from Tanking so if that's a model or path we follow it's good enough for me. If we don't get some top end talent into our side we will be in no mans land for years to come.
Hodge was taken pick #1 after a trade, so hardly "from tanking"; Franklin and Roughead were taken in the same year due to a different set of draft rules, so not comparable. I'd argue strongly that Hawthorn's success was built on clever recruitment of existing players (Lake, Burgoyne, Gibson, Hale, McEvoy, Gunston... Dew if you want to look at '08 as well) far more than on "tanking" or otherwise obtaining low draft picks (no doubting the calibre of Franklin and Roughead but by the time the Hawks were consistently strong rather than a flash-in-the-pan success they were far from the crux of their strength).

To add to that, for every Hawthorn (or Collingwood) who had success with a brief down year or two, there are plenty of others (Melbourne, Brisbane, Essendon, Richmond, Carlton) who can't break free from the rut... how would you propose we emulate the former but not the latter? Geelong have continued to perform well for over a decade without "bottoming out"; Adelaide are atop the ladder right now despite having hovered in "no mans land" plenty; Sydney have had success, whatever their other advantages, with hardly a season outside the eight. Why not emulate those sides, rather than risk being the next Melbourne or Carlton? "Top end talent" isn't what wins premierships, it's strength across the park; conscious failure gets us nowhere near that.
 
Last edited:

thumping

Club Legend
Joined
Oct 29, 2002
Posts
1,988
Likes
937
Location
Our Native Land.
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Shinboners,Rooboys,Kangas
#44
Hodge was taken pick #1 after a trade, so hardly "from tanking"; Franklin and Roughead were taken in the same year due to a different set of draft rules, so not comparable. I'd argue strongly that Hawthorn's success was built on clever recruitment of existing players (Lake, Burgoyne, Gibson, Hale, McEvoy, Gunston... Dew if you want to look at '08 as well) far more than on "tanking" or otherwise obtaining low draft picks (no doubting the calibre of Franklin and Roughead but by the time the Hawks were consistently strong rather than a flash-in-the-pan success they were far from the crux of their strength).

To add to that, for every Hawthorn (or Collingwood) who had success with a brief down year or two, there's are plenty of others (Melbourne, Brisbane, Essendon, Richmond, Carlton) who can't break free from the rut... how would you propose we emulate the former but not the latter? Geelong have continued to perform well for over a decade without "bottoming out"; Adelaide are atop the ladder right now despite having hovered in "no mans land" plenty; Sydney have had success, whatever their other advantages, with hardly a season outside the eight. Why not emulate those sides, rather than risk being the next Melbourne or Carlton? "Top end talent" isn't what wins premierships, it's strength across the park; conscious failure gets us nowhere near that.
Ok so the Hawks didn't "Tank" when they got priority picks? Of course they did!
They used the rules to there advantage that set the foundation to the successful side they built around those players.
 

SpiderBurton22

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Mar 17, 2012
Posts
6,324
Likes
17,108
Location
Caught in the web.
AFL Club
North Melbourne
#45
Ok so the Hawks didn't "Tank" when they got priority picks? Of course they did!
They used the rules to there advantage that set the foundation to the successful side they built around those players.

Different rules then, it was easier to exploit. You could have 1 shocking year and end up with 2 early round 1st picks. Not the case anymore.
 

hcd199

Club Legend
Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Posts
2,018
Likes
1,113
Location
Hobart
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Waterford GAA, Glenorchy, Hob (BBL)
#46
Ok so the Hawks didn't "Tank" when they got priority picks? Of course they did!
They used the rules to there advantage that set the foundation to the successful side they built around those players.
Not convinced you're actually reading my posts, given I never suggested the Hawks didn't tank - just that the draft rules are different now, and Hawthorn's enduring success owed far more to their coaching and clever recruitment choices than it did to picking up two top-tier players at once anyway. Why ignore the numerous counter-examples I raised in favour of one or two special cases?
 

thumping

Club Legend
Joined
Oct 29, 2002
Posts
1,988
Likes
937
Location
Our Native Land.
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Shinboners,Rooboys,Kangas
#47
Not convinced you're actually reading my posts, given I never suggested the Hawks didn't tank - just that the draft rules are different now, and Hawthorn's enduring success owed far more to their coaching and clever recruitment choices than it did to picking up two top-tier players at once anyway. Why ignore the numerous counter-examples I raised in favour of one or two special cases?
Ok Take away Dangerfield and Geelong are back in the pack.
Different rules then, it was easier to exploit. You could have 1 shocking year and end up with 2 early round 1st picks. Not the case anymore.
Great we have one shocking year and get 1 early pick which hopefully we can exploit.
 

hcd199

Club Legend
Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Posts
2,018
Likes
1,113
Location
Hobart
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Waterford GAA, Glenorchy, Hob (BBL)
#48
Ok Take away Dangerfield and Geelong are back in the pack.

[...]

Great we have one shocking year and get 1 early pick which hopefully we can exploit.
Make a minor adjustment to almost every side in the league and they're "in the pack", it's a close season. But reality doesn't deal in counterfactuals like that, and the fact of the matter is, Dangerfield is at the Cats (more 'clever recruiting') and they're looking at yet another top four finish/chance at a flag without having ever "bottomed out". And again, as great a player as Dangerfield is, success isn't about one or two greats, which is where those with draft blinkers on get things wrong - present problems won't just evaporate because we get someone good at pick #2...
 

Horace

Premium Gold
Joined
Dec 2, 2001
Posts
9,491
Likes
13,963
Location
Mitcham
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Fitzroy
Thread starter #49
When was the last time pick #1 played in a flag for the club that "won" them with the spoon? Tom Boyd wasn't at the club that drafted him ('16 flag), Hawthorn didn't get Luke Hodge through "winning" the spoon ('15 flag), neither did West Coast with Drew Banfield ('06 flag)... so Des Headland, '98 #1 pick and '02 premiership player, is the last example. Not exactly a promising precedent...

Thinking we're the exception to the cellar-dwelling sub-mediocrity that characterises bottom-finishing sides is folly. 17th is bad enough (clubs who've had success shortly after finishing 2nd-last - like Hawthorn and Collingwood - had two top 5 picks, so not exactly comparable). The amount of illogic required to think finishing with a slightly higher draft pick is of substantial value to us is staggering. Pretending failure is a positive is the kind of desperately delusional thinking that typifies supporters of perennial basket cases - let's not join them.
Mate this thread was started in jest yesterday. Lighten up. It will be what it will be.
 
Top Bottom